So who's going to see the Pope?

Sleeper12

Irish Kings wrote:

closing the busiest thread on a dying forum site that is desperate for posts, isn't going to win you mod of the year from the owners.

There are three pope type threads & at least two were closed because he had left the country. I'm glad they are reopened. There is a lot to digest from the fall out of this visit imo

martingriff

BliainanAir wrote: »

Fair play!

I bet if you did a 'Who Do You Think You Are' programme you'd find out the RC may have done you all a lot of good aswell

At least your consistent though, a proper atheist.

And that makes it okay

ArmaniJeanss

BliainanAir wrote: »

I stand over everything i said, an attention seeking egotistical person. Disrespect the office with comments??? I'm criticising Mary McAleese, not the Office of President. She became so vocal after her son came out. For 2 or 3 years after her presidency she was very quiet.

You are continuing to conveniently ignore that back in 2005, during her presidency, she had already raised the ire of American Catholics because of "her advocacy for homosexual rights and women priests".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-group-opposes-president-s-visit-1.441291

Your argument that this is a new campaign of hers, related to her son, and that she was quiet about it during her presidency appears to be a false argument.
She was clearly loud enough about the issue to attract conservative anger long before her son 'came out', which from his own writings seem to be 2006 or 2007.

BliainanAir

martingriff wrote: »

Who gives a fly F£%K what other religions have done. I am religious and I believe in GOD and I am hoping that this pope would somehow bring change. However all we get is waffle waffle waffle and if we try to bring up what they have done we get people like you trying to make light of it by saying well others have done the same and it is bigger problem here.

While that may be true it does not diminish the fact that the catholic church is responsible for dispicable cover ups of abuse. They are responsible for what happened and rather then endless speeches and asking for forgiveness how about they actually to something show some actually sorrow.

If they want forgivness then where is there penance or act of contrition. The pope should order all documents released to whatever countries law division and lat bare all that was done. Until then all of it is just useless BULL

Martin, with all due respect your coming into a conversation where a point was being made that Catholicism was responsible for an anti single mother attitude. People rightly pointed out Protestants thought the same.

People weren't discussing abuse at that particular moment..

I agree totally with your views on abuse but that's not the point we were discussing just now.

Sleeper12

Fighting Tao wrote:

Because she’s a woman?

That's actually one of the things she is debating about. The woman's roll in the church. People are getting too hung up on her debating homosexuality. That is only a tiny part of her debate but it's a stick people with vested interests want to hit her with. They keep shouting homosexuality and her son trying to drown out everything else she is debating

shenanagans

Sleeper12 wrote: »

For a Catholic to attend a Catholic Mass? Perfectly appropriate.

For a theologiest challenging the pope & to sit in the front row & look him in the eye? Perfectly appropriate.

Why should she hide down the back or not show up at all? What does that prove? That she is afraid, doubtful of her stance?

I'm not a massive fan of hers and only defend her because most people criticising her don't understand what she is doing, what her studies have been & what the role of the president office allowed her to do & what it restricted her from doing. It's like people saying Higgins is a trator for signing in the water charges bill. He had no choice. It was a duty he had to do.

Well said. Fair enough. My criticism is her timing. Her son wants to run in next election. And here she is front and centre with her views, which she is entitled to but we heard nothing for years from her. Now she's in front of every camera with Justin in tow. She has only damaged his chances IMO.

Fighting Tao

BliainanAir wrote: »

Martin, with all due respect your coming into a conversation where a point was being made that Catholicism was responsible for an anti single mother attitude. People rightly pointed out Protestants thought the same.

People weren't discussing abuse at that particular moment..

I agree totally with your views on abuse but that's not the point we were discussing just now.

It was the RCC that had the influence here and not any protestant church. Dragging them into the conversation ia nonsense. They did not have influence on the majority of the Irish TDs and population.

Sycamore Tree

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's actually one of the things she is debating about. The woman's roll in the church. People are getting too hung up on her debating homosexuality. That is only a tiny part of her debate but it's a stick people with vested interests want to hit her with. They keep shouting homosexuality and her son trying to drown out everything else she is debating

Correct. She actually said very little about LGBT in the 2 interviews I heard in the past week or so. It was mostly related to the child abuse scandal in Chile and USA.

Billy86

SPDUB wrote: »

What it actually shows is that there are a lot of people lying on the census form .

Not necessarily - I would say close to that number are indeed baptised Catholic either to keep the grandparents happy (which is kind of pathetic) or for schooling purposes (which is something that needs to be gone 20 years ago).

Strazdas

awec wrote: »

And?

The whole of European society was deeply conservative, across all religions and people of no faith. It's not as if the Catholic Church was going on a solo run.

A Jewish woman having sex outside of marriage or becoming pregnant would have been as ostracised as a Catholic.

eviltwin

Absolutely delighted it's all over and he's gone. Not surprised at the low turn out, the writing has been on the wall for the RCC in Ireland for a long time. It will continue but as a faith which hopefully knows it's place and stays out of politics and social issues.

BliainanAir

martingriff wrote: »

And that makes it okay

Jaysus Martin stop putting words in my mouth. I believe the church did more good than bad in working with the poor, education and so on. But it's impossible to measure.

Also child abuse by anyone is wrong.

Are the percentage of abusing priests higher than the general population? Did the priesthood attract more perverts? I don't know if studies have been done..

Also the cover ups add another layer of evil.

In Nazi Germany atrocities were carried out by the Gestapo. The excellent 1999 documentary 'The Nazis: A Warning From History' showed that the Gestapo could not have functioned without ordinary Germans condemning their neighbours to the brutes. Irish society, as has been pointed out here a lot, handed over their daughters, children to Catholic Institutions. There are a lot of unanswered questions... which need answering.

Sleeper12

shenanagans wrote:

Pity she didn't pick up that mirror 20 years ago when she had a voice.

Well you do realise that 20 years ago she was President? You do realise that there is more that the president of Ireland can't say than can say? The president is confined in what they can say in the exact same way that the Queen of England can't say anything that she wants. Parliament has to approve topics for the Queen to include in her speeches.

She was very outspoken for a president but had to wait till she left office before being able to talk about everything she wanted to talk about. If you are not happy that she couldn't speak out as president then you need to criticise the government of the day and the office of the president itself.

BliainanAir

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You are continuing to conveniently ignore that back in 2005, during her presidency, she had already raised the ire of American Catholics because of "her advocacy for homosexual rights and women priests".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-group-opposes-president-s-visit-1.441291

Your argument that this is a new campaign of hers, related to her son, and that she was quiet about it during her presidency appears to be a false argument.
She was clearly loud enough about the issue to attract conservative anger long before her son 'came out', which from his own writings seem to be 2006 or 2007.

Look. I believe she became a lot more vocal in recent years. She went on a rant this year.

I don't like the woman, i think she is hypocritical and ramped up criticism in recent years due to family circumstance. I can't stand her, i feel she's egotistical. Many posters agreed with my post.

You like her, fair enough. End of.

Sleeper12

shenanagans wrote:

Pity she didn't pick up that mirror 20 years ago when she had a voice.

Well you do realise that 20 years ago she was President? You do realise that there is more that the president of Ireland can't say than can say? The president is confined in what they can say in the exact same way that the Queen of England can't say anything that she wants. Parliament has to approve topics for the Queen to include in her speeches.

She was very outspoken for a president but had to wait till she left office before being able to talk about everything she wanted to talk about. If you are not happy that she couldn't speak out as president then you need to criticise the government of the day and the office of the president itself.

Sycamore Tree

eviltwin wrote: »

Absolutely delighted it's all over and he's gone. Not surprised at the low turn out, the writing has been on the wall for the RCC in Ireland for a long time. It will continue but as a faith which hopefully knows it's place and stays out of politics and social issues.

Recent referendums have shown that Rome have less and less relevance but I think we needed this pope visit to show just how far we have come. I think the current and future politicians will have taken note of the poor turnout and we can continue to mature as a nation. The whole country had an excellent debate and discussion about the Roman organisation this week and it can only help. The obvious next step is to remove Rome from our education system.

shenanagans

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Well you do realise that 20 years ago she was President? You do realise that there is more that the president of Ireland can't say than can say? The president is confined in what they can say in the exact same way that the Queen of England can't say anything that she wants. Parliament has to approve topics for the Queen to include in her speeches.

She was very outspoken for a president but had to wait till she left office before being able to talk about everything she wanted to talk about. If you are not happy that she couldn't speak out as president then you need to criticise the government of the day and the office of the president itself.

She's making up for it now. Face all over papers last week. Sick of the sight of her. You like her, fair enough. I just think all the publicity is to benefit her son and his political ambitions.

Sleeper12

shenanagans wrote:

Strategic timing with her views....

That's nonsense. She's been speaking about these issues since she left office. Someone posted a link to her speaking about them in 2005. Are you really trying to make out that her & her son planned this whole thing for the last 13 years?

There is a campaign by some Catholics to blacken her name and reputation because she is asking awkward questions of the church. Questions about homosexuality, human rights, sex abuse, covering up sex abuse, women's roll in the church etc. These aren't new questions she's asked. What exactly is wrong with her asking these questions for the last 15 years? What is she doing that is so bad?

Sycamore Tree

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's nonsense. She's been speaking about these issues since she left office. Someone posted a link to her speaking about them in 2005. Are you really trying to make out that her & her son planned this whole thing for the last 13 years?

There is a campaign by some Catholics to blacken her name and reputation because she is asking awkward questions of the church. Questions about homosexuality, human rights, sex abuse, covering up sex abuse, women's roll in the church etc. These aren't new questions she's asked. What exactly is wrong with her asking these questions for the last 15 years? What is she doing that is so bad?

They wont answer that....they just don't like her

It's either a woman thing or a colonial thing

uptherebels

0127647 wrote: »

Itself and its government.
Individual citizens are also responsible for their own actions.

Never said they weren't. But there is no point in trying to deflect away from the role the church had on the country and its influence on those in positions of power

uptherebels

JeffKenna wrote: »

That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.

And why was they society rotten? What caused those people to snub your grandmother for becoming pregnant outside of marriage? Nothing to do with generations of indoctrination to a certain religious ethos?
Plenty of us look in the mirror, that's why the churches influence in this country is slowly being eroded to nothing.

murpho999

https://twitter.com/vincentbrowne/status/1033783910419836935

Have to agree with this. RTE gave the church a platform and "journalists" were calling him the Holy Father etc. All just wrong.

shenanagans

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

They wont answer that....they just don't like her

It's either a woman thing or a colonial thing

Listen. I've heard little of her views on the church in recent years. Perhaps she wasn't getting as much media attention in the past. She seems very vocal over the last week and many people feel it's opportunism. I don't think she has come out of it well. That's my opinion. She could have held off until after the weekend events to outline her criticisms. I think if she had done so it would have gone down better with people. Like it or not the Pope's visit was important to many people. Let them have their celebration of their faith. I didn't attend any of the events myself but I respect how much it meant to many people. She could have put her claws away for a few days. It didn't benefit her or Justin IMO.

I fully accept she knows more about the RCC that most. She's fully entitled to her views. But her timing was poor.

Arthur Daley

I could not figure out why Dublin buses were stopped so far away from the park. In some cases it was an hour to 75 minute walk. That was ridiculous, people wandering in the pouring rain through vacant housing estates with the streets closed off.

Then you find out 500,000 people didn't show up, despite the tickets selling on the website over a month ago. The transport organisers did not make the journey convenient in any way at all. And they over reacted to the scale of the event, in the usual over protective way these days. Almost like they wanted to make it a pilgramage to attend. Add the miserable rain most of the day to it and it must have knocked 100,000 off the numbers anyway.

Sleeper12

shenanagans wrote:

Well said. Fair enough. My criticism is her timing. Her son wants to run in next election. And here she is front and centre with her views, which she is entitled to but we heard nothing for years from her. Now she's in front of every camera with Justin in tow. She has only damaged his chances IMO.

She has been front & centre for 15 years with the same debate. Nothing to do with her son. Where she was caterpulted into the limelight recently is that she was invited to speak at the international women's day conference but out of the blue they banned her. She complained to the pope and the world news jumped on board. She did not ban herself so she had no control over the timing of this.

There are far right religious people want you to talk about her homosexual son or him entering politics because its deflection from the wonderful questions she's been asking the church for the last 15 years.

Many posters here and on other threads are either part of the far right deflection defence or are being manipulated & used by them as they all repeat the same mantra about her and totally ignore that she has been doing the same thing for 15 years. She campaigns for much more than gay rights. Infact that would only be a tiny bit of of it but it falls into the mantra of self serving because of her son. The same posters ignore her campaigning about sexual abuse in the church & covering up of said abuse. Basic human rights. Women's roll in the church & many more things.

This has been covered by just about every current affairs programme in Ireland at this stage. You don't have to take my word for it. Her track record is available online

0127647

uptherebels wrote: »

Never said they weren't. But there is no point in trying to deflect away from the role the church had on the country and its influence on those in positions of power

I never deflected the church role (Try re-reading the original post, it may help). It is fully responsible for its role but trying to bucket the blame on them with little or no mention of the other parties involved and abdicate society, Government and individual responsability under the guise they were "dictated to" or "Influenced" is laughable.

It takes two for influence to succeed. The person influencing and the person allowing themselves to be influenced.

martingriff

BliainanAir wrote: »

Jaysus Martin stop putting words in my mouth. I believe the church did more good than bad in working with the poor, education and so on. But it's impossible to measure.

Also child abuse by anyone is wrong.

Are the percentage of abusing priests higher than the general population? Did the priesthood attract more perverts? I don't know if studies have been done..

Also the cover ups add another layer of evil.

In Nazi Germany atrocities were carried out by the Gestapo. The excellent 1999 documentary 'The Nazis: A Warning From History' showed that the Gestapo could not have functioned without ordinary Germans condemning their neighbours to the brutes. Irish society, as has been pointed out here a lot, handed over their daughters, children to Catholic Institutions. There are a lot of unanswered questions... which need answering.

Your right and there was 1 word for it its called FEAR as what was drilled in to them what would happen and each person will have to live with the guilt of handing there daughter over to the Catholic institution in that you and I are in agreement also with not believing people who put there heads above the parapet in relation to what was happening in these institutions and if they knew they need to answer for it. However whatever the catholics church did in these instution to anybody they are responsible for doing it as they did it nobody else the people who did the deed. I hope we are in agreement of that

To do back to the Nazis in you post that is why soldiers were prosecuted.

Fighting Tao

shenanagans wrote: »

Listen. I've heard little of her views on the church in recent years. Perhaps she wasn't getting as much media attention in the past. She seems very vocal over the last week and many people feel it's opportunism. I don't think she has come out of it well. That's my opinion. She could have held off until after the weekend events to outline her criticisms. I think if she had done so it would have gone down better with people. Like it or not the Pope's visit was important to many people. Let them have their celebration of their faith. I didn't attend any of the events myself but I respect how much it meant to many people. She could have put her claws away for a few days. It didn't benefit her or Justin IMO.

I fully accept she knows more about the RCC that most. She's fully entitled to her views. But her timing was poor.

It was excellent timing. Speak louder exactly when most Catholics were listening.

Sleeper12

shenanagans wrote:

She's making up for it now. Face all over papers last week. Sick of the sight of her. You like her, fair enough. I just think all the publicity is to benefit her son and his political ambitions.

shenanagans wrote:

Listen. I've heard little of her views on the church in recent years. Perhaps she wasn't getting as much media attention in the past. She seems very vocal over the last week and many people feel it's opportunism. I don't think she has come out of it well. That's my opinion. She could have held off until after the weekend events to outline her criticisms. I think if she had done so it would have gone down better with people. Like it or not the Pope's visit was important to many people. Let them have their celebration of their faith. I didn't attend any of the events myself but I respect how much it meant to many people. She could have put her claws away for a few days. It didn't benefit her or Justin IMO.

shenanagans wrote:

I fully accept she knows more about the RCC that most. She's fully entitled to her views. But her timing was poor.

I'll say it one last time. She has been vocal for 15 years. Google it and you can see.

She's all over the news because someone banned her from an event she had been invited to speak at. They call this church censorship. The timing of this was not of her doing & repeatedly saying it was does not make it so. She did not ban herself so had no control over the timing.

I've explained this several times as best I can. It's all available online from reputable newspapers. Times, independent, rte etc. If you want the truth it's easy to find

I must sound like a member of her family I'm sticking up for her so much tonight but herself and Mary Robinson are the best presidents we've ever had & both deserved a lot more respect then some want to give them.
Enough. No more presidents for me tonight

Edgware

I remember McAleeses on a trip to Turkey saying " the Irish people want Turkey in the E.
U."
I don't remember being asked about that. Before and now she loves playing schoolmistress role telling us how we should live our lives. No chance she'd give up the big holiday home for the homeless