So who's going to see the Pope?

shenanagans · 26-08-2018 9:11pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You really don't know what you are talking about. She trained in a seminary for years the exact same way a priest would. She can hold a genuine theology conversation with the best of them from any religion. She is at least 15 or 20 years, that I know of, standing up for not just gay rights but everyone's rights.

It's easy to criticise what she didn't say as president but if you knew anything about the offence of president you'd realise that like the queen of England there is so much they are not allowed to say without clearance from the government. As president she did actually push the boundaries of the office quite far. At times it was thought that she went too far without cabinet approval.

You should read up on the role of the president before you disrespect the office with comments.

Why sit front row in Dublin Castle? Whats your opinion on that. Do you feel it was appropriate?

homerjay2005 · 26-08-2018 9:11pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Just under 1% of those 300k were ordered by me, and there were many others in the #saynopetothepope group that ordered way more than me and received them.

so you ordered 3000 tickets?

PotatoSpud · 26-08-2018 9:11pm

I feel like the low attendance is as much a representation of just how little Irish people think of Dublin's infrastructure as it is emblematic of the rapidly declining Catholic church. The city was totally unequipped to deal with the expected numbers and people were sensible enough to realise it wasn't worth the effort. Practically none of my very religious relatives entertained the idea of heading up to it.

Getting into Dublin is a chore, getting around it when an event is on is significantly worse. I imagine a lot of people just heard 500k, remembered the last time they went up to Dublin without realising there was some big event on, and immediately dismissed the idea of heading. Or (like my mam) discovered a few days before that they'd have to walk a couple of miles just to get to their entrance and couldn't be arsed.

Irish Kings · 26-08-2018 9:12pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I thought they locked the thread 20 minutes ago

closing the busiest thread on a dying forum site that is desperate for posts, isn't going to win you mod of the year from the owners.

awec · 26-08-2018 9:14pm

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Once again?

You're quite fond of the old "the church is all of us" bollocks, you were at the same thing last night.

It's not me. My conscience is clear.

Achasanai · 26-08-2018 9:15pm

billyhead wrote: »

So much bitterness on this thread against the church
It was a very small minority of priests whom abused their position. You would swear they were all at it the way some clowns here go on.

And a huge number to look the other way, from the upper echelons who covered it up, and allowed the paedophiles to continue what they were doing (often helping it spread throughout dioceses and countries) to other priests - not involved in the actual act of raping a child - to look the other way.

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:16pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You really don't know what you are talking about. She trained in a seminary for years the exact same way a priest would. She can hold a genuine theology conversation with the best of them from any religion. She is at least 15 or 20 years, that I know of, standing up for not just gay rights but everyone's rights.

It's easy to criticise what she didn't say as president but if you knew anything about the offence of president you'd realise that like the queen of England there is so much they are not allowed to say without clearance from the government. As president she did actually push the boundaries of the office quite far. At times it was thought that she went too far without cabinet approval.

You should read up on the role of the president before you disrespect the office with comments.

That's just laughable! You've disrespected the head of a foreign state a fair bit on here, a bit hypocritical. And before you counter with 'well the irish president wasn't head of an organisation that covered up child rape'. Well actually the President of Ireland is our head of state and technically head of all the secular institutions that abused.

I stand over everything i said, an attention seeking egotistical person. Disrespect the office with comments??? I'm criticising Mary McAleese, not the Office of President. She became so vocal after her son came out. For 2 or 3 years after her presidency she was very quiet.

joe40 · 26-08-2018 9:16pm

BliainanAir wrote: »

The high horse brigade wrote: »

And who was controlling society? In our Dail dictating or laws, in our hospitals, in our schools indoctrinating our children.

Society was never as controlled by the church as the popular narrative would have people believe.

Take 1798, very warm dry Spring and Summer when the rebellion was on. Young couples sleeping together out in the open, despite so many priests rebel leaders! Infact 'the pike in the thatch' came to have a double meaning!!

In the Civil War, the church excommunicated the irregular IRA. The church was actually led by society into getting rid of the excommunication as young couples 'were living in sin'.

Cardinal Cullen called the Fenians of the 1860s and after the 'very faeces of the church'.. didn't stop huge numbers being fenians.

So many of you have been fed this narrative of church controlling society when in reality ala carte Catholicism and individuals doing what they wanted has existed for centuries. It's just group think. People need to learn the facts.

I had a great grand father who told a priest to go fcuk himself in the 1880s when he lectured from the pulpit on sex outside marriage when my great grandfather's heavily pregnant, unmarried daughter attended mass.

Just because people weren't educated didn't mean they weren't worldly wise or wouldn't act on their conscience.

I Agree with all that, but some sort of malaise or cowardice seems to have swept through irish society in the 30s to 50s especially, where far too much control and deference was given to the church. Not universally but close. John A Costello statement as taoiseach sums this up."I am an irishman second and a catholic first"
Irish society from that time has a lot to be ashamed about. Not everyone but a lot

Galwayguy35 · 26-08-2018 9:17pm

awec wrote: »

You're quite fond of the old "the church is all of us" bollocks, you were at the same thing last night.

It's not me. My conscience is clear.

Sure aren't you a prod from the North unless I'm mistaken, your lot definitely don't like Catholics.

Allinall · 26-08-2018 9:18pm

PotatoSpud wrote: »

I feel like the low attendance is as much a representation of just how little Irish people think of Dublin's infrastructure as it is emblematic of the rapidly declining Catholic church. The city was totally unequipped to deal with the expected numbers and people were sensible enough to realise it wasn't worth the effort. Practically none of my very religious relatives entertained the idea of heading up to it.

Getting into Dublin is a chore, getting around it when an event is on is significantly worse. I imagine a lot of people just heard 500k, remembered the last time they went up to Dublin without realising there was some big event on, and immediately dismissed the idea of heading. Or (like my mam) discovered a few days before that they'd have to walk a couple of miles just to get to their entrance and couldn't be arsed.

Apt user name.

Sleeper12 · 26-08-2018 9:19pm

shenanagans wrote:

Fair enough. But why was she sitting front row in Dublin Castle smiling up at the Pope. She is entitled to her views, but if you run down the church why show up at the events this week?? Seems hypocritical to me. She should have not attended in protest or solidarity with victims. But of course she'd get no publicity that way!!

There is a lot of people here happy to tell Catholics how to be Catholic. It is her church as much as your church. She is entitled to be there. She is a theologiest. She knows more about your religion than you do as she has trained. What she has been doing is improving the church by holding a mirror up to it. She can & has shown the church that their stance on homosexuality is actually against the bible. She has held a mirror up to the church about child abuse & covering it up, their treatment of women among many other things.

Religion should be debated. They debate it daily in the Vatican. Why is she not allowed to debate it?

Fighting Tao · 26-08-2018 9:22pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is a lot of people here happy to tell Catholics how to be Catholic. It is her church as much as your church. She is entitled to be there. She is a theologiest. She knows more about your religion than you do as she has trained. What she has been doing is improving the church by holding a mirror up to it. She can & has shown the church that their stance on homosexuality is actually against the bible. She has held a mirror up to the church about child abuse & covering it up, their treatment of women among many other things.

Religion should be debated. They debate it daily in the Vatican. Why is she not allowed to debate it?

Because she’s a woman?

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:22pm

awec wrote: »

It's pointless whataboutery.

Do you think the fact that other religions did the same thing somehow absolves the church? Makes it ok?

The catholic church committed numerous atrocities in Ireland. People can waffle all they want about other countries to try and make themselves feel better, but it's a load of pointless bollocks and fooling nobody.

I read your contributions last night. Not impressed at all.. I don't get a sense of any knowledge of history, nuanced debate etc. I know you're probably over from the rugby forum to spout a few cliches..but that doesn't cut the mustard here.

It's not whataboutery. Catholicism is being blamed for moulding society, in a general way, and pilloried. But you can't see the big picture that other Christian religions were doing the same, all over the world.

My CoI neighbours frown on unmarried women today. If you said anything about evangelical Protestantism or Protestantism in general you'd be pilloried as being sectarian. But Catholicism..fair game.

So no my friend it's not 'whataboutery'.. you might know a few phrases but you have to know what they actually mean.

26-08-2018 9:23pm

the lord above save me from warrior catholics on the internet ðŸ˜

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:23pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Sure aren't you a prod from the North unless I'm mistaken, your lot definitely don't like Catholics.

That explains a lot.

shenanagans · 26-08-2018 9:24pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is a lot of people here happy to tell Catholics how to be Catholic. It is her church as much as your church. She is entitled to be there. She is a theologiest. She knows more about your religion than you do as she has trained. What she has been doing is improving the church by holding a mirror up to it. She can & has shown the church that their stance on homosexuality is actually against the bible. She has held a mirror up to the church about child abuse & covering it up, their treatment of women among many other things.

Religion should be debated. They debate it daily in the Vatican. Why is she not allowed to debate it?

Pity she didn't pick up that mirror 20 years ago when she had a voice.

Irish Kings · 26-08-2018 9:24pm

BliainanAir wrote: »

Society was never as controlled by the church as the popular narrative would have people believe.

Take 1798, very warm dry Spring and Summer when the rebellion was on. Young couples sleeping together out in the open, despite so many priests rebel leaders! Infact 'the pike in the thatch' came to have a double meaning!!

In the Civil War, the church excommunicated the irregular IRA. The church was actually led by society into getting rid of the excommunication as young couples 'were living in sin'.

Cardinal Cullen called the Fenians of the 1860s and after the 'very faeces of the church'.. didn't stop huge numbers being fenians.

So many of you have been fed this narrative of church controlling society when in reality ala carte Catholicism and individuals doing what they wanted has existed for centuries. It's just group think. People need to learn the facts.

I had a great grand father who told a priest to go fcuk himself in the 1880s when he lectured from the pulpit on sex outside marriage when my great grandfather's heavily pregnant, unmarried daughter attended mass.

Just because people weren't educated didn't mean they weren't worldly wise or wouldn't act on their conscience.

fake news, never happened.

Autochange · 26-08-2018 9:26pm

What was the final figure for the phoenix park?

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:26pm

joe40 wrote: »

I Agree with all that, but some sort of malaise or cowardice seems to have swept through irish society in the 30s to 50s especially, where far too much control and deference was given to the church. Not universally but close. John A Costello statement as taoiseach sums this up."I am an irishman second and a catholic first"
Irish society from that time has a lot to be ashamed about. Not everyone but a lot

Yes i agree with your point. I think the rebellious radical labourer and landless classes were basically eliminated with the famine and after..

shenanagans · 26-08-2018 9:26pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is a lot of people here happy to tell Catholics how to be Catholic. It is her church as much as your church. She is entitled to be there. She is a theologiest. She knows more about your religion than you do as she has trained. What she has been doing is improving the church by holding a mirror up to it. She can & has shown the church that their stance on homosexuality is actually against the bible. She has held a mirror up to the church about child abuse & covering it up, their treatment of women among many other things.

Religion should be debated. They debate it daily in the Vatican. Why is she not allowed to debate it?

Strategic timing with her views....

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/pope-francis-in-ireland/do-dil-ambitions-for-her-son-really-explain-mary-mcaleeses-criticism-of-the-papal-visit-37250669.html

shenanagans · 26-08-2018 9:27pm

Autochange wrote: »

What was the final figure for the phoenix park?

130,000

HappyAsLarE · 26-08-2018 9:30pm

awec wrote: »

You're quite fond of the old "the church is all of us" bollocks, you were at the same thing last night.

It's not me. My conscience is clear.

I’m ashamed that you recognise me again, too many posts that’s a sign of.

I just think you are quick to dismiss that the Church and it’s Values are made by society. Your granny probably thought queers were the devil etc.

I’m not calling you a paedo or anything like that.

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:30pm

Irish Kings wrote: »

fake news, never happened.

It's just you may not be very well read.

I challenge you to go to your local library and read Irish history books from a variety of authors.

JC01 · 26-08-2018 9:31pm

BliainanAir wrote: »

I read your contributions last night. Not impressed at all.. I don't get a sense of any knowledge of history, nuanced debate etc. I know you're probably over from the rugby forum to spout a few cliches..but that doesn't cut the mustard here.

It's not whataboutery. Catholicism is being blamed for moulding society, in a general way, and pilloried. But you can't see the big picture that other Christian religions were doing the same, all over the world.

My CoI neighbours frown on unmarried women today. If you said anything about evangelical Protestantism or Protestantism in general you'd be pilloried as being sectarian. But Catholicism..fair game.

So no my friend it's not 'whataboutery'.. you might know a few phrases but you have to know what they actually mean.

Don't worry, the majority of atheists despise all organised religions as much as each other, the Catholic Church just has a special place in most Irish peoples minds due to the horrors it inflicted on Ireland itself. I have as much disdain for the leadership of Islam, Judaism, CoI etc as I do the Vatican but the Vatican is far more personal because it has directly damaged my own family and ancestors.

CeilingFly · 26-08-2018 9:32pm

Organisers got too optimistic.

Its peak holiday season. We're now in an online world.

Going to an open air mass is just not an attractive option for most people.

My mother would be religious - not overly, but has her beliefs. She planned a day out in 1979 with her sisters and their families, I and my dad were the only two that didn't go.

It was an all day "event"

For today she stayed in, had some friends over and watched it on TV - back in 1979 most TVs were still black and white or at best a 14" colour. Her TV today is 55" hd. So choice - watch on tv in comfort of home or in the windy damp cold of phoenix park.

There was no possibility of getting more than 200k today -but for health and safety they had to plan for it.

I'm totally non religious, but respect religion of all types. Pope Francis is modern, he's affable and I think this visit will strengthen his resolve to correct issues in the Catholic Church.

I'm also involved in a not for profit organisation that has a religious ethos and priests involved too. Just two of five had any interest in attending any of the events of the weekend.

In this day of Internet and easy cheap travel, seeing the Pope in the distance is not the attraction it was in 1979.

In saying that, he certainly came across as a very likeable and sincere chap and I'd love to meet him for a pint.

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:33pm

shenanagans wrote: »

Pity she didn't pick up that mirror 20 years ago when she had a voice.

Sycamore Tree used the mirror analogy and now Sleeper seems to have thought it was so good he's using it!

martingriff · 26-08-2018 9:33pm

BliainanAir wrote: »

I read your contributions last night. Not impressed at all.. I don't get a sense of any knowledge of history, nuanced debate etc. I know you're probably over from the rugby forum to spout a few cliches..but that doesn't cut the mustard here.

It's not whataboutery. Catholicism is being blamed for moulding society, in a general way, and pilloried. But you can't see the big picture that other Christian religions were doing the same, all over the world.

My CoI neighbours frown on unmarried women today. If you said anything about evangelical Protestantism or Protestantism in general you'd be pilloried as being sectarian. But Catholicism..fair game.

So no my friend it's not 'whataboutery'.. you might know a few phrases but you have to know what they actually mean.

Who gives a fly F£%K what other religions have done. I am religious and I believe in GOD and I am hoping that this pope would somehow bring change. However all we get is waffle waffle waffle and if we try to bring up what they have done we get people like you trying to make light of it by saying well others have done the same and it is bigger problem here.

While that may be true it does not diminish the fact that the catholic church is responsible for dispicable cover ups of abuse. They are responsible for what happened and rather then endless speeches and asking for forgiveness how about they actually to something show some actually sorrow.

If they want forgivness then where is there penance or act of contrition. The pope should order all documents released to whatever countries law division and lat bare all that was done. Until then all of it is just useless BULL

Sleeper12 · 26-08-2018 9:34pm

shenanagans wrote:

Why sit front row in Dublin Castle? Whats your opinion on that. Do you feel it was appropriate?

For a Catholic to attend a Catholic Mass? Perfectly appropriate.

For a theologiest challenging the pope & to sit in the front row & look him in the eye? Perfectly appropriate.

Why should she hide down the back or not show up at all? What does that prove? That she is afraid, doubtful of her stance?

I'm not a massive fan of hers and only defend her because most people criticising her don't understand what she is doing, what her studies have been & what the role of the president office allowed her to do & what it restricted her from doing. It's like people saying Higgins is a trator for signing in the water charges bill. He had no choice. It was a duty he had to do.

Sycamore Tree · 26-08-2018 9:34pm

Question for the flock - what did Mary McAleese say that was wrong? Factually wrong?

I heard several interviews with her over the past few months and she is spot on every single time.

For example;

On the topic of clerical abuse, the Belfast native went on to tell O'Connor that she believes Pope Francis puts the defence of the institution first as a result of his formation as a priest and as a Bishop.

"It's not only systemic, it was directed from central command and control, which is the Vatican," she said.

"It’s impossible to believe that all bishops acted equally negligently by coincidence."

Why was she banned from speaking in Rome at the International Women’s Day conference...

McAleese was due to take part in an International Women’s Day conference in the Holy See but her participation was opposed by Cardinal Farrell, who is prefect of the Dicastery for the Laity, Family and Life. McAleese told host Brendan O’Connor that she made a formal complaint to the Pope about the cardinal’s actions.

However, as she has yet to receive a response, she believes that the decision to remove her from the conference panel was done with the Pope’s approval.

“I made formal complaint against Cardinal Farrell, to the Pope, the Pope is the only person as his superior who could rectify and deal with and judge that complaint, so I made a formal canonical complaint to the Pope about Cardinal Farrell’s actions,” she said.

Having received neither an acknowledgement or a reply to date, I can only presume that since the Pope is his immediate superior that this was done with his approval.

Why? Because the truth hurts.

She added that her being banned from the March event was in keeping with the ethos of the World Meeting of Families. Discussing the congress she said:
It’s always been essentially a right-wing rally… and it was designed for that purpose, to rally people to get them motivated to fight against the tide of same-sex marriage, rights for gays, abortion rights, contraceptive rights.

A brave brave woman. Some of the comments on here about her are very telling. Maybe ye are all Mattie McGrath wannabes

ALMOST EIGHT IN 10 people agree with Mary McAleese’s comments that the Catholic Church is an “empire of misogyny”, according to a new opinion poll.

BliainanAir · 26-08-2018 9:35pm

JC01 wrote: »

Don't worry, the majority of atheists despise all organised religions as much as each other, the Catholic Church just has a special place in most Irish peoples minds due to the horrors it inflicted on Ireland itself. I have as much disdain for the leadership of Islam, Judaism, CoI etc as I do the Vatican but the Vatican is far more personal because it has directly damaged my own family and ancestors.

Fair play!

I bet if you did a 'Who Do You Think You Are' programme you'd find out the RC may have done you all a lot of good aswell

At least your consistent though, a proper atheist.

So who's going to see the Pope?

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