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So who's going to see the Pope?

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    #3092
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,397 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    billyhead wrote: »
    So much bitterness on this thread against the church
    It was a very small minority of priests whom abused their position. You would swear they were all at it the way some clowns here go on.

    See this is where hardcore Catholics and the Church itself miss the mark completely...it's not just the fact that the minority abused/covered it up.
    It's the general attitude and uncompromising stance on so called moral issues to the determinant of many citizens. It's a rich tapestry of grievances really.


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    #3093
    BliainanAir
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 145 ✭✭BliainanAir


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    I am absolutely delighted McAleese is showing a mirror to Rome. I wish more Irish politicians had her courage. Most TDs are too afraid of losing votes to say what needs to be said. The people criticising her are cowards attacking the messenger - what has she said that is wrong? She is an amazing woman and I hope she keeps up the good fight. Those relics in the Vatican deserve it.

    Mary McAleese is a complete hypocrite. She loves the lime light and lacks the dignity of her predecessor Mary Robinson.

    She had no interest in LGBT issues when she was President. She played the Catholic card. The only thing that made her so vocal was when her own son was gay. Then it became an issue because it came to her family. She was fine with Catholic doctrine until it didn't suit her new reality and having the ego she does the Catholic Church was to change to suit her.

    Mary Robinson has been through to her cause since bringing contraceptives over the border in the 1970s. David Norris fought for gay rights when it wasn't trendy to do so, along with many others, recently documented on an excellent documentary on rte on the 25th anniversary of the decriminalisation of homosexuality.

    Mary McAleese..spare us. The woman loves the sound of her voice. Knows she has popular backing. A populist mouth piece who abuses her status as an ex president. I still think of that cringeworthy contrived moment when she went WOW!! after Queen Elizabeth said her cupla focail. Put the camera on me McAleese.


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    #3094
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    BliainanAir wrote: »
    Mary McAleese is a complete hypocrite. She loves the lime light and lacks the dignity of her predecessor Mary Robinson.

    She had no interest in LGBT issues when she was President. She played the Catholic card. The only thing that made her so vocal was when her own son was gay. Then it became an issue because it came to her family. She was fine with Catholic doctrine until it didn't suit her new reality and having the ego she does the Catholic Church was to change to suit her.

    Mary Robinson has been through to her cause since bringing contraceptives over the border in the 1970s. David Norris fought for gay rights when it wasn't trendy to do so, along with many others, recently documented on an excellent documentary on rte on the 25th anniversary of the decriminalisation of homosexuality.

    Mary McAleese..spare us. The woman loves the sound of her voice. Knows she has popular backing. A populist mouth piece who abuses her status as an ex president. I still think of that cringeworthy contrived moment when she went WOW!! after Queen Elizabeth said her cupla focail. Put the camera on me McAleese.

    Well said. I second that.


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    #3095
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    It was the same people that went to the RDS that went to see him on the streets yesterday, to Croke Park last night and the Phoenix Park today. The same people!


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    #3096
    Bredabe
    Registered Users Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    billyhead wrote: »
    So much bitterness on this thread against the church
    It was a very small minority of priests whom abused their position. You would swear they were all at it the way some clowns here go on.

    To the children raped repeatedly in their school, who told the priests, nuns. doctors, parents and anyone who would listen, it wasn't a minority, no one, not a single person believed them, because of the hold based on fear the church had on everyone.

    That's bullying and as far as Im concerned the only ppl Innocent are the victims and those who were too uneducated in such matters to realise such assaults did exist.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



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    #3097
    0127647
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭0127647


    Its tiring to listen to liberal media constantly calling the church having to apologise for every past sin when the state itself, citizens/families and even media of the time played just as big if not bigger roles.

    It should never be forgotten that nigh on every clergy person who committed abuse was also an Irish man/woman who was a product of the society (not only the church) at the time.

    Celibacy is a stone age ideal in the church. The church simply has to move towards greater inclusion of women priests and g*ys and the introduction of allowing priests to marry.


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    #3098
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    0127647 wrote: »
    Its tiring to listen to liberal media constantly calling the church having to apologise for every past sin when the state itself, citizens/families and even media of the time played just as big if not bigger roles.

    It should never be forgotten that nigh on every clergy person who committed abuse was also an Irish man/woman who was a product of the society (not only the church) at the time.

    Celibacy is a stone age ideal in the church. The church simply has to move towards greater inclusion of women priests and g*ys and the introduction of allowing priests to marry.

    And society in Ireland at that time was largely controlled by.....


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    #3099
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    shenanagans wrote: »
    She's a smart lady with plenty to say. But why couldn't she have challenged the church when she was president?? Easy to do it now as she has nothing to lose. She's all about LGBT rights now which is great but she had nothing to say about their rights when she was in office.

    Her little brother recently came out about the sadistic abuse he suffered at the hands of church while in school. Her anger has been pouring out since then. I guess that it didn't mean as much to her before but now that it's something that she realises has hurt her family it's become real and personal.


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    #3100
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,331 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    BliainanAir wrote: »
    Mary McAleese is a complete hypocrite. She loves the lime light and lacks the dignity of her predecessor Mary Robinson.

    She had no interest in LGBT issues when she was President. She played the Catholic card. The only thing that made her so vocal was when her own son was gay. Then it became an issue because it came to her family. She was fine with Catholic doctrine until it didn't suit her new reality and having the ego she does the Catholic Church was to change to suit her.

    Mary Robinson has been through to her cause since bringing contraceptives over the border in the 1970s. David Norris fought for gay rights when it wasn't trendy to do so, along with many others, recently documented on an excellent documentary on rte on the 25th anniversary of the decriminalisation of homosexuality.

    Mary McAleese..spare us. The woman loves the sound of her voice. Knows she has popular backing. A populist mouth piece who abuses her status as an ex president. I still think of that cringeworthy contrived moment when she went WOW!! after Queen Elizabeth said her cupla focail. Put the camera on me McAleese.

    2005 - A Catholic advocacy group in the USA tries to stop President Mc Aleese visiting a Catholic University because "her advocacy for homosexual rights and women priests".

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-group-opposes-president-s-visit-1.441291


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    #3101
    0127647
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭0127647


    uptherebels wrote: »
    And society in Ireland at that time was largely controlled by.....

    Itself and its government.
    Individual citizens are also responsible for their own actions.


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    #3102
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    iguana wrote: »
    Her little brother recently came out about the sadistic abuse he suffered at the hands of church while in school. Her anger has been pouring out since then. I guess that it didn't mean as much to her before but now that it's something that she realises has hurt her family it's become real and personal.

    Fair enough. But why was she sitting front row in Dublin Castle smiling up at the Pope. She is entitled to her views, but if you run down the church why show up at the events this week?? Seems hypocritical to me. She should have not attended in protest or solidarity with victims. But of course she'd get no publicity that way!!


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    #3103
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Not all of the 45,000 turned out in Knock as well it said on the BBC.


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    #3104
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    uptherebels wrote: »
    And society in Ireland at that time was largely controlled by.....

    That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.


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    #3105
    The high horse brigade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭The high horse brigade


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.

    And who was controlling society? In our Dail dictating or laws, in our hospitals, in our schools indoctrinating our children.


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    #3106
    shenanagans
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭shenanagans


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.

    Too true. Single mothers were dumped in laundry by their own parents. People love to think nuns dragged them in of the street. Shocking abuse at the hands of the religious orders but they were landed in their by their own blood in most cases. The truth is hard to take. The views of society back then was crazy.


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    #3107
    HappyAsLarE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭HappyAsLarE


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.

    Here here.

    The church is a product of Humankind. We all own it.


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    #3108
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,508 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    That's an easy get out clause to just blame the church for everything. Take my grandmother for example, fell pregnant outside of marriage and had to give up her baby and move to a different part of the country as she would be snubbed by her community. Let's be honest here, it was society that was rotten and blaming the church for everything just stops us from looking in the mirror.
    Did society just wake up one day and decide, on the spur of the moment, that babies born out of wedlock are bad?


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    #3109
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    And who was controlling society? In our Dail dictating or laws, in our hospitals, in our schools indoctrinating our children.

    You're forgetting about a thing called personally responsibility and a moral compass that we all possess. Look in the mirror, your grandparents, their parents are every much as responsibile as the church for this happening.


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    #3110
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,508 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    HappyAsLarE wrote: »
    Here here.

    The church is a product of Humankind. We all own it.
    Once again, speak for yourself. If you want to feel guilty and start sharing blame for the acts of that organisation go on ahead, my conscience is clear.


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    #3111
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,508 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    You're forgetting about a thing called personally responsibility and a moral compass that we all possess. Look in the mirror, your grandparents, their parents are every much as responsibile as the church for this happening.
    Where did this "moral compass" come from?


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    #3112
    0127647
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭0127647


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    And who was controlling society? In our Dail dictating or laws, in our hospitals, in our schools indoctrinating our children.

    what you are describing there is elected politicians allowing themselves to be "dictated" to and outsourcing the responsibilities of a government


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    #3113
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,201 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    shenanagans wrote: »
    Too true. Single mothers were dumped in laundry by their own parents. People love to think nuns dragged them in of the street. Shocking abuse at the hands of the religious orders but they were landed in their by their own blood in most cases. The truth is hard to take. The views of society back then was crazy.

    Not only that but knowledge of the existence of the Magdalene Laundries and industrial schools was widespread throughout the population, it wasn't even a secret.


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    #3114
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,201 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    awec wrote: »
    Did society just wake up one day and decide, on the spur of the moment, that babies born out of wedlock are bad?

    Babies being born out of wedlock and premarital sex was as a big a scandal in Protestant countries such as Britain, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries.


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    #3115
    BliainanAir
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 145 ✭✭BliainanAir


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    And who was controlling society? In our Dail dictating or laws, in our hospitals, in our schools indoctrinating our children.

    Society was never as controlled by the church as the popular narrative would have people believe.

    Take 1798, very warm dry Spring and Summer when the rebellion was on. Young couples sleeping together out in the open, despite so many priests rebel leaders! Infact 'the pike in the thatch' came to have a double meaning!!

    In the Civil War, the church excommunicated the irregular IRA. The church was actually led by society into getting rid of the excommunication as young couples 'were living in sin'.

    Cardinal Cullen called the Fenians of the 1860s and after the 'very faeces of the church'.. didn't stop huge numbers being fenians.

    So many of you have been fed this narrative of church controlling society when in reality ala carte Catholicism and individuals doing what they wanted has existed for centuries. It's just group think. People need to learn the facts.

    I had a great grand father who told a priest to go fcuk himself in the 1880s when he lectured from the pulpit on sex outside marriage when my great grandfather's heavily pregnant, unmarried daughter attended mass.

    Just because people weren't educated didn't mean they weren't worldly wise or wouldn't act on their conscience.


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    #3116
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,508 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Babies being born out of wedlock and premarital sex was as a big a scandal in Protestant countries such as Britain, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries.
    And?


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    #3117
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,953 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    BliainanAir wrote:
    Mary McAleese is a complete hypocrite. She loves the lime light and lacks the dignity of her predecessor Mary Robinson.

    BliainanAir wrote:
    She had no interest in LGBT issues when she was President. She played the Catholic card. The only thing that made her so vocal was when her own son was gay. Then it became an issue because it came to her family. She was fine with Catholic doctrine until it didn't suit her new reality and having the ego she does the Catholic Church was to change to suit her.

    BliainanAir wrote:
    Mary Robinson has been through to her cause since bringing contraceptives over the border in the 1970s. David Norris fought for gay rights when it wasn't trendy to do so, along with many others, recently documented on an excellent documentary on rte on the 25th anniversary of the decriminalisation of homosexuality.

    BliainanAir wrote:
    Mary McAleese..spare us. The woman loves the sound of her voice. Knows she has popular backing. A populist mouth piece who abuses her status as an ex president. I still think of that cringeworthy contrived moment when she went WOW!! after Queen Elizabeth said her cupla focail. Put the camera on me McAleese.


    You really don't know what you are talking about. She trained in a seminary for years the exact same way a priest would. She can hold a genuine theology conversation with the best of them from any religion. She is at least 15 or 20 years, that I know of, standing up for not just gay rights but everyone's rights.

    It's easy to criticise what she didn't say as president but if you knew anything about the offence of president you'd realise that like the queen of England there is so much they are not allowed to say without clearance from the government. As president she did actually push the boundaries of the office quite far. At times it was thought that she went too far without cabinet approval.

    You should read up on the role of the president before you disrespect the office with comments.


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    #3118
    BliainanAir
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 145 ✭✭BliainanAir


    awec wrote: »
    And?

    Does Strazdas have to spell it out? People are blaming Catholicism for a moral attitude that was also present in Protestant countries.

    QED. It wasn't just Catholicism which contributed to moral indignance at children born outside wedlock.

    A result of this, for example, in Britain, was the huge numbers of backstreet abortions in Victorian times, babies being drowned in rivers etc.


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    #3119
    HappyAsLarE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭HappyAsLarE


    awec wrote: »
    Once again, speak for yourself. If you want to feel guilty and start sharing blame for the acts of that organisation go on ahead, my conscience is clear.

    Once again?


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    #3120
    Mr Meanor
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭Mr Meanor


    awec wrote: »
    Did society just wake up one day and decide, on the spur of the moment, that babies born out of wedlock are bad?

    Why do you think Gay Bryne spoke about Anne Lovett on the late late show?
    People had recognised that society was in trouble!
    We all shared in the issues, guilty or innocent. at least I can say I gave out at the time and called them out several times over the years.
    What age are you! What have you done?


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    #3121
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,508 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    BliainanAir wrote: »
    Does Strazdas have to spell it out? People are blaming Catholicism for a moral attitude that was also present in Protestant countries.

    QED. It wasn't just Catholicism which contributed to moral indignance at children born outside wedlock.

    A result of this, for example, in Britain, was the huge numbers of backstreet abortions in Victorian times, babies being drowned in rivers etc.
    It's pointless whataboutery.

    Do you think the fact that other religions did the same thing somehow absolves the church? Makes it ok?

    The catholic church committed numerous atrocities in Ireland. People can waffle all they want about other countries to try and make themselves feel better, but it's a load of pointless bollocks and fooling nobody.


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