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Arlene foster to attend ulster final
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The people in London don't give a sh*t what happens outside London, the people of England don't give a sh*t what happens in Scotland, the people of Wales don't give a sh*t what happens in England and the people of Scotland don't give a sh*t about England. But it still works and has for centuries. Of course I don't expect London or England to care for Northern Ireland.
I support the Union but it doesn't mean I care greatly about most matters involving Scotland or England outside of the big questions. But that's the same with Dublin or anything outside of Northern Ireland. I have only ever visited Dublin once in my life but barely seen anything of the rest of the Island. It doesn't particuarly bother me.
I know basics on southern politics but I don't keep an eye on day to day politics in the state, who is controlling what departments, who is responsible for what. It's probably likewise with many with regards to Northern Ireland. I'd say a lot of people in the South couldn't give a sh*t about Northern Ireland or have a clue about the day to day situation or it's politics.
The facts are that the British government have several times considered sacrificing Unionists when the going got tough.
They sarcrificed them in the GFA when they said that it was for the people of Ireland, alone, without outside impediment, to decide their future.
It's there in black and white, they simply do not see you as genuine British people.
Unionism needs to grow up and accept the realities and stop clinging.
Arlene may be realising that and knows that she has to cultivate a more respectful relationship with the south.0 -
I don't need anyone South or in England to think I am British, I just am, I was born British and will go to my grave British. It's been afforded to me with the blood of many who fought and died for me to have that right. The GFA is nothing more than a consent document for the people of Northern Ireland.FrancieBrady wrote: »The people in London don't give a sh*t what happens outside London, the people of England don't give a sh*t what happens in Scotland, the people of Wales don't give a sh*t what happens in England and the people of Scotland don't give a sh*t about England. But it still works and has for centuries. Of course I don't expect London or England to care for Northern Ireland.
I support the Union but it doesn't mean I care greatly about most matters involving Scotland or England outside of the big questions. But that's the same with Dublin or anything outside of Northern Ireland. I have only ever visited Dublin once in my life but barely seen anything of the rest of the Island. It doesn't particuarly bother me.
I know basics on southern politics but I don't keep an eye on day to day politics in the state, who is controlling what departments, who is responsible for what. It's probably likewise with many with regards to Northern Ireland. I'd say a lot of people in the South couldn't give a sh*t about Northern Ireland or have a clue about the day to day situation or it's politics.
The facts are that the British government have several times considered sacrificing Unionists when the going got tough.
They sarcrificed them in the GFA when they said that it was for the people of Ireland, alone, without outside impediment, to decide their future.
It's there in black and white, they simply do not see you as genuine British people.
Unionism needs to grow up and accept the realities and stop clinging.
Arlene may be realising that and knows that she has to cultivate a more respectful relationship with the south.0 -
I don't need anyone South or in England to think I am British, I just am, I was born British and will go to my grave British. It's been afforded to me with the blood of many who fought and died for me to have that right. The GFA is nothing more than a consent document for the people of Northern Ireland.
It is a consent document and consent should always be paramount. All I'm saying is it's trending towards a united Ireland and people like the DUP would have to recognise that possibility. We have unionists on camera saying they are now considering a united Ireland, we have changing demographics in terms of the Catholic-Protestant ratios (a Catholic is far more easily convinced about a united Ireland as they hold no ideological opposition) and we have every poll consistently showing increased support for a united Ireland with the latest poll showing 42% in favor.
Yet throughout all this hardline unionists prefer to stare into the face of the evidence and say "no no this isn't happening". This will be the biggest downfall of the union in Northern Ireland not nationalism.0 -
The poll % increases and decreases for nationalism. I have seen 20%, 40%, just depends on what is going on. You also have to look at what considering means, I look at the proposals put forward by nationalists and none of it adds up economically, how the Republic would be able to afford it (we even have a minister on TV saying the Republic can't afford it which was just a few years ago).steddyeddy wrote: »I don't need anyone South or in England to think I am British, I just am, I was born British and will go to my grave British. It's been afforded to me with the blood of many who fought and died for me to have that right. The GFA is nothing more than a consent document for the people of Northern Ireland.
It is a consent document and consent should always be paramount. All I'm saying is it's trending towards a united Ireland and people like the DUP would have to recognise that possibility. We have unionists on camera saying they are now considering a united Ireland, we have changing demographics in terms of the Catholic-Protestant ratios (a Catholic is far more easily convinced about a united Ireland as they hold no ideological opposition) and we have every poll consistently showing increased support for a united Ireland with the latest poll showing 42% in favor.
Yet throughout all this hardline unionists prefer to stare into the face of the evidence and say "no no this isn't happening". This will be the biggest downfall of the union in Northern Ireland not nationalism.
To ask for me to consider it, look at the huge range of issues and fundamental issues ranging from health and currency and so on and just vote for it is jumping the fence in my opinion. Unionism should embrace the challenge, tackle the inadequacies of Irish nationalism's position, put forward counter arguments to the benefits of the Union, not shy away from it, as Peter Robinson has said.
So if you are asking me personally to talk about a United Ireland, sure but I would need convinced on a number of important issues, some social, some economic, a lot of issues, I could spend all day discussing so many issues with it and why at this moment and the argument's put forward by Irish nationalism won't be better.0 -
I don't need anyone South or in England to think I am British, I just am, I was born British and will go to my grave British. It's been afforded to me with the blood of many who fought and died for me to have that right. The GFA is nothing more than a consent document for the people of Northern Ireland.
Yes, yes, all very emotive stuff. But the stark reality is that the GFA is a roadmap to a UI in a given set of circumstances I.e. if a majority think they are better off in a UI.
The DUP support for a Brexit which will destroy the already charity case economy of NI will see to it that a majority including a good deal of moderate unionists will vote for a UI and you will become an ex-pat Brit.
Keep up your support of the DUP by all means.0 -
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The GFA is as Gerry Adams said is a road with no destined destination. Be it for me to ever quote Gerry Adams but it's probably one of the only true things he has ever said. My Britishness would never be in question because Sinn Fein has said it wouldn't and even if it was in danger if such a case transpired, I'd just move to Brexit Britain, so it would be fine.FrancieBrady wrote: »I don't need anyone South or in England to think I am British, I just am, I was born British and will go to my grave British. It's been afforded to me with the blood of many who fought and died for me to have that right. The GFA is nothing more than a consent document for the people of Northern Ireland.
Yes, yes, all very emotive stuff. But the stark reality is that the GFA is a roadmap to a UI in a given set of circumstances I.e. if a majority think they are better off in a UI.
The DUP support for a Brexit which will destroy the already charity case economy of NI will see to it that a majority including a good deal of moderate unionists will vote for a UI and you will become an ex-pat Brit.
Keep up your support of the DUP by all means.0 -
The GFA is as Gerry Adams said is a road with no destined destination. Be it for me to ever quote Gerry Adams but it's probably one of the only true things he has ever said. My Britishness would never be in question because Sinn Fein has said it wouldn't and even if it was in danger if such a case transpired, I'd just move to Brexit Britain, so it would be fine.
Of course you would. Then you would be an Irish person who has opted to identify as British, same as the GFA says you are here.0 -
No, I would just be British. I wouldn't get hang around until my rights are taken away from me.FrancieBrady wrote: »The GFA is as Gerry Adams said is a road with no destined destination. Be it for me to ever quote Gerry Adams but it's probably one of the only true things he has ever said. My Britishness would never be in question because Sinn Fein has said it wouldn't and even if it was in danger if such a case transpired, I'd just move to Brexit Britain, so it would be fine.
Of course you would. Then you would be an Irish person who has opted to identify as British, same as the GFA says you are here.0 -
No, I would just be British. I wouldn't get hang around until my rights are taken away from me.
What rights do you have now that would be missing in a UI?
*I suggest you read the GFA to see what you are defined as by London. You are an Irish person living on 'the island of Ireland' with the right to identify as British.
That is exactly what you will still be if you take the huff and go or if you are in a UI.
Realities again that the unionist community need to accept. A good few already have.0 -
The poll % increases and decreases for nationalism. I have seen 20%, 40%, just depends on what is going on. You also have to look at what considering means, I look at the proposals put forward by nationalists and none of it adds up economically, how the Republic would be able to afford it (we even have a minister on TV saying the Republic can't afford it which was just a few years ago).
To ask for me to consider it, look at the huge range of issues and fundamental issues ranging from health and currency and so on and just vote for it is jumping the fence in my opinion. Unionism should embrace the challenge, tackle the inadequacies of Irish nationalism's position, put forward counter arguments to the benefits of the Union, not shy away from it, as Peter Robinson has said.
So if you are asking me personally to talk about a United Ireland, sure but I would need convinced on a number of important issues, some social, some economic, a lot of issues, I could spend all day discussing so many issues with it and why at this moment and the argument's put forward by Irish nationalism won't be better.
You're backing a party that's leaving the biggest single market in the world, will withdraw from an organisation that provides tariff free trade and that gives grants to Northern Irish farmers and you're talking about things not adding up economically?
The problem with modern unionism is that it exists in a bubble. You only give credence to your own opinion that NI should remain in the union and ignore what others are saying.
You're saying you will need to be convinced but the evidence suggests that it isn't hardline unionists that need convincing. It's moderate economic unionists and Catholics.
We know that Northern Ireland's economy is far more dependent on the republic than vice versa. 30% of NI's trade is with the republic. All that will be subject to increased tariffs and cost of transport post Brexit and remember most of NI voted to remain. It's being pulled out the EU against its will and if that results in a worse economy then you can imagine people won't be happy. It's not simply about joining a united Ireland, it's about joining the EU.The extent of Northern Ireland’s dependence on trade with the Republic has been revealed in new figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency and Department of Finance.
In 2016, 30 per cent of Northern Ireland’s exports – £2 billion (€2.3 billion) – were sent to the Republic; a much greater percentage than the goods going the other way. Just 1 per cent of the Republic’s exports, worth £1 billion, went to Northern Ireland.
However, England, Scotland and Wales remains Northern Ireland’s single largest primary market for external sales, even though the Republic is its largest export market.
Northern Ireland exported almost twice as much to the Republic as it imported, with businesses making 758,000 cross-Border deliveries southwards in 2016, compared with 410,000 deliveries from the Republic.
Northern Irish exports to the Republic are dominated by food and live animals, machinery and transport equipment, and manufactured goods. Nearly three-quarters – 74 per cent – come from small businesses.
Businesses located along the Border are more likely to be involved in cross-Border trade than those situated further away, according to the report’s authors whose work has shed greater light on the trade taking place.0 -
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Francie you obviously don't have a clue what the GFA means, read it or remotely understand it going by this post. The GFA clearly states anyone born in Northern Ireland can identify as Irish or British. I am British. That's it. You don't need to enforce your own identity onto me, it's not going to happen. You should learn to relax, we are not all Gaels and believe in Irish nationalism.FrancieBrady wrote: »No, I would just be British. I wouldn't get hang around until my rights are taken away from me.
What rights do you have now that would be missing in a UI?
*I suggest you read the GFA to see what you are defined as by London. You are an Irish person living on 'the island of Ireland' with the right to identify as British.
That is exactly what you will still be if you take the huff and go or if you are in a UI.
Realities again that the unionist community need to accept. A good few already have.
The logical conclusion of what you said is immediately if a United Ireland happened people right away would lose British citizenship, so you would be moving to England as an Irish citizen when that would not be the case, as outlined by many quarters, including Sinn Fein (if you are to believe them, pinch of salt and all that).
Unless you know something that the rest of us don't that no negotiations on such issues would happen and everyone would be forced to be Irish and all vestiges of British identity would be wiped out immediately and we can all go to hell in a handcart.0 -
I don't believe in the EU, I think the EU is the continuation of German dominance on the European continent by other means. I also didn't mention trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic, I mentioned that Northern Ireland would be leaving the trading block which we export over 15 billion to Great Britain compared to 4 billion with the Republic, 3 billion with the rest of the EU.steddyeddy wrote: »The poll % increases and decreases for nationalism. I have seen 20%, 40%, just depends on what is going on. You also have to look at what considering means, I look at the proposals put forward by nationalists and none of it adds up economically, how the Republic would be able to afford it (we even have a minister on TV saying the Republic can't afford it which was just a few years ago).
To ask for me to consider it, look at the huge range of issues and fundamental issues ranging from health and currency and so on and just vote for it is jumping the fence in my opinion. Unionism should embrace the challenge, tackle the inadequacies of Irish nationalism's position, put forward counter arguments to the benefits of the Union, not shy away from it, as Peter Robinson has said.
So if you are asking me personally to talk about a United Ireland, sure but I would need convinced on a number of important issues, some social, some economic, a lot of issues, I could spend all day discussing so many issues with it and why at this moment and the argument's put forward by Irish nationalism won't be better.
You're backing a party that's leaving the biggest single market in the world, will withdraw from an organisation that provides tariff free trade and that gives grants to Northern Irish farmers and you're talking about things not adding up economically?
The problem with modern unionism is that it exists in a bubble. You only give credence to your own opinion that NI should remain in the union and ignore what others are saying.
You're saying you will need to be convinced but the evidence suggests that it isn't hardline unionists that need convincing. It's moderate economic unionists and Catholics.
We know that Northern Ireland's economy is far more dependent on the republic than vice versa. 30% of NI's trade is with the republic. All that will be subject to increased tariffs and cost of transport post Brexit and remember most of NI voted to remain. It's being pulled out the EU against its will and if that results in a worse economy then you can imagine people won't be happy. It's not simply about joining a united Ireland, it's about joining the EU.The extent of Northern Ireland’s dependence on trade with the Republic has been revealed in new figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency and Department of Finance.
In 2016, 30 per cent of Northern Ireland’s exports – £2 billion (€2.3 billion) – were sent to the Republic; a much greater percentage than the goods going the other way. Just 1 per cent of the Republic’s exports, worth £1 billion, went to Northern Ireland.
However, England, Scotland and Wales remains Northern Ireland’s single largest primary market for external sales, even though the Republic is its largest export market.
Northern Ireland exported almost twice as much to the Republic as it imported, with businesses making 758,000 cross-Border deliveries southwards in 2016, compared with 410,000 deliveries from the Republic.
Northern Irish exports to the Republic are dominated by food and live animals, machinery and transport equipment, and manufactured goods. Nearly three-quarters – 74 per cent – come from small businesses.
Businesses located along the Border are more likely to be involved in cross-Border trade than those situated further away, according to the report’s authors whose work has shed greater light on the trade taking place.
Unless you can convince me that we would be better in the Euro than the Pound sterling, that freedom of movement will end, that the HSE can match up to the NHS, the gigantic rises in taxes for citizens, double digit tax rise figure at least. It doesn't interest me to put myself in that position.0 -
I don't believe in the EU, I think the EU is the continuation of German dominance on the European continent by other means. I also didn't mention trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic, I mentioned that Northern Ireland would be leaving the trading block which we export over 15 billion to Great Britain compared to 4 billion with the Republic, 3 billion with the rest of the EU.
Unless you can convince me that we would be better in the Euro than the Pound sterling, that freedom of movement will end, that the HSE can match up to the NHS, the gigantic rises in taxes for citizens, double digit tax rise figure at least. It doesn't interest me to put myself in that position.
You live in a place that is now, and has been for many years, a financial basket case. Your economy is heavily supported by England.
If Brexit goes the hard way and England need to reduce a lot of spending, NI is likely to be targeted for cuts. If NI was to rely completely on it's own funding, what do you think the tax rate would be?
Are you happy to live at the whim of politicians in England, who might just throw your little corner of the world under the bus, should the need arise?
Don't expect things to stay the same as they are now.0 -
Francie you obviously don't have a clue what the GFA means, read it or remotely understand it going by this post. The GFA clearly states anyone born in Northern Ireland can identify as Irish or British. I am British. That's it. You don't need to enforce your own identity onto me, it's not going to happen. You should learn to relax, we are not all Gaels and believe in Irish nationalism.
The logical conclusion of what you said is immediately if a United Ireland happened people right away would lose British citizenship, so you would be moving to England as an Irish citizen when that would not be the case, as outlined by many quarters, including Sinn Fein (if you are to believe them, pinch of salt and all that).
Unless you know something that the rest of us don't that no negotiations on such issues would happen and everyone would be forced to be Irish and all vestiges of British identity would be wiped out immediately and we can all go to hell in a handcart.
You can identify as British wherever you are. I can identify as Martian if I wish.
The reality is that you are an Irish person who identifies as British. As per the line in the GFA which gives you a person 'living on the island of Ireland' that right. The same applied to those identifying as Irish.
Read it sometime, it is very clear how you are viewed. But I expect we will get more 'I am British' belligerence.
Britain is a state of mind or a construct to name a union of different people's.0 -
I am born in the United Kingdom, that makes me a British citizen and subject. What you are essentially saying is those who are British can't be, they are Irish. It's a very warped type of thinking to just outright deny what people are because you hate their politics.FrancieBrady wrote: »Francie you obviously don't have a clue what the GFA means, read it or remotely understand it going by this post. The GFA clearly states anyone born in Northern Ireland can identify as Irish or British. I am British. That's it. You don't need to enforce your own identity onto me, it's not going to happen. You should learn to relax, we are not all Gaels and believe in Irish nationalism.
The logical conclusion of what you said is immediately if a United Ireland happened people right away would lose British citizenship, so you would be moving to England as an Irish citizen when that would not be the case, as outlined by many quarters, including Sinn Fein (if you are to believe them, pinch of salt and all that).
Unless you know something that the rest of us don't that no negotiations on such issues would happen and everyone would be forced to be Irish and all vestiges of British identity would be wiped out immediately and we can all go to hell in a handcart.
You can identify as British wherever you are. I can identify as Martian if I wish.
The reality is that you are an Irish person who identifies as British. As per the line in the GFA which gives you a person 'living on the island of Ireland' that right. The same applied to those identifying as Irish.
Read it sometime, it is very clear how you are viewed. But I expect we will get more 'I am British' belligerence.
Britain is a state of mind or a construct to name a union of different people's.0 -
I am born in the United Kingdom, that makes me a British citizen and subject. What you are essentially saying is those who are British can't be, they are Irish. It's a very warped type of thinking to just outright deny what people are because you hate their politics.
Are you from the island of Ireland (as described in the GFA)?
Answer = Yes, you are.
I.E. You are Irish and as per the same GFA you take your right to identify as British.
that remains the case whether you live in Belfast, Manchester or Cork.
That isn't rocket science, it was written by the British and Irish governments, you can delude yourself that you will be seen as anything else but Irish first, when you fly the coop.0 -
That is like saying because Canada is part of the Americas, Canadians are really "American". It's a nonsense argument. Ukrainians aren't Russian, Russians aren't Ukrainians. Hopefully this get's through to you eventually.FrancieBrady wrote: »I am born in the United Kingdom, that makes me a British citizen and subject. What you are essentially saying is those who are British can't be, they are Irish. It's a very warped type of thinking to just outright deny what people are because you hate their politics.
Are you from the island of Ireland (as described in the GFA)?
Answer = Yes, you are.
I.E. You are Irish and as per the same GFA you take your right to identify as British.
that remains the case whether you live in Belfast, Manchester or Cork.
That isn't rocket science, it was written by the British and Irish governments, you can delude yourself that you will be seen as anything else but Irish first, when you fly the coop.0 -
That is like saying because Canada is part of the Americas, Canadians are really "American". It's a nonsense argument. Ukrainians aren't Russian, Russians aren't Ukrainians. Hopefully this get's through to you eventually.
Didn't the late Ian Paisley identify himself as Irish, still British, Still an Ulster man.0 -
That is like saying because Canada is part of the Americas, Canadians are really "American". It's a nonsense argument. Ukrainians aren't Russian, Russians aren't Ukrainians. Hopefully this get's through to you eventually.
Here it is in black and white.(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
Now, I am not sure what schooling system you went through but when I went to school the 'people of an island' were referred to by the name of that island.
Hawaii = Hawaians
Jamaica =Jamaicans
etc etc.
The above is the wording agreed by the British and Irish government, it is not mine - what do you think they would call the 'people of the island of Ireland'?
Take your time now. You can phone a friend if you wish.0 -
That does not make them Irish if they so choose. People are entitled to be British or Irish or both. The argument you are making is anyone born on the Island is automatically Irish. Look throughout the world and you will see many groups disagreeing with this concept. That is not how nationality works. Chechans wouldn't describe themselves as Russian, they are Chechans.FrancieBrady wrote: »That is like saying because Canada is part of the Americas, Canadians are really "American". It's a nonsense argument. Ukrainians aren't Russian, Russians aren't Ukrainians. Hopefully this get's through to you eventually.
Here it is in black and white.(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
Now, I am not sure what schooling system you went through but when I went to school the 'people of an island' were referred to by the name of that island.
Hawaii = Hawaians
Jamaica =Jamaicans
etc etc.
The above is the wording agreed by the British and Irish government, it is not mine - what do you think they would call the 'people of the island of Ireland'?
Take your time now. You can phone a friend if you wish.0 -
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That does not make them Irish if they so choose. People are entitled to be British or Irish or both. The argument you are making is anyone born on the Island is automatically Irish. Look throughout the world and you will see many groups disagreeing with this concept. That is not how nationality works. Chechans wouldn't describe themselves as Russian, they are Chechans.
You can 'identify' as British as I can identify as Martian, but you and I, are first and foremost from the place you were born, 'the island of Ireland'. You are one of it's 'people' according to the signatories of the GFA.
You really can't continue to believe you are deluding anyone but yourself about this simple reality.0 -
Martians don't exist (from what we know, unless you have evidence yourself), British people do exist. As I said, Chechans are not Russian, they are Chechans. Those of us who are British are not Irish.FrancieBrady wrote: »That does not make them Irish if they so choose. People are entitled to be British or Irish or both. The argument you are making is anyone born on the Island is automatically Irish. Look throughout the world and you will see many groups disagreeing with this concept. That is not how nationality works. Chechans wouldn't describe themselves as Russian, they are Chechans.
You can 'identify' as British as I can identify as Martian, but you and I, are first and foremost from the place you were born, 'the island of Ireland'. You are one of it's 'people' according to the signatories of the GFA.
You really can't continue to believe you are deluding anyone but yourself about this simple reality.0 -
Martians don't exist (from what we know, unless you have evidence yourself), British people do exist. As I said, Chechans are not Russian, they are Chechans. Those of us who are British are not Irish.
Not even the most belligerent unionist xan convince that they were not born on the island of Ireland. Which makes you Irish first.
Tell you what, when you get off the plane or boat when you sling your hook, ask the first person you see; 'where do you think I am from?'
You may be in for a suprise.0 -
That is like saying because Canada is part of the Americas, Canadians are really "American". It's a nonsense argument. Ukrainians aren't Russian, Russians aren't Ukrainians. Hopefully this get's through to you eventually.
Actually, I have South and Central American friends who get annoyed at the term "Americans" being used to mean specifically "US citizens".0 -
She's after meeting with LGBTI groups now, maybe she is trying to drag the DUP into the 21st century
https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2018/0628/974003-foster-lgbt-pink-news/0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »Not even the most belligerent unionist xan convince that they were not born on the island of Ireland. Which makes you Irish first.
Evidently your copy of the GFA is as heavily edited as your GAA rulebook. Or as unread.0 -
Francie Brady. Why do you give a f**k who considers themselves Irish or British or Martian? Seriously....0
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Francie Brady. Why do you give a f**k who considers themselves Irish or British or Martian? Seriously....
I don't care.
I do care about the delusion that goes on around the status of northern Ireland
Some Unionists publcly delude themselves but privately, it is clear to me, by action and deed, that they know they are somewhere that is looked on as 'other' by the rest of the UK.
They cannot, for instance, allow a notional separation, even it it means economic survival.
Hence the clinging.0 -
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alaimacerc wrote: »Evidently your copy of the GFA is as heavily edited as your GAA rulebook. Or as unread.
Unionists will for their entire lives be 'people born on the island of Ireland (Irish) who have chosen to identify as British.
If you can show how the GFA does not give that as a right then you might have a point.0
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