Arlene foster to attend ulster final

munsterlegend

alaimacerc wrote: »

That's not a bad idea, but the trouble is it's likely to satisfy neither side. Look at all the carping there is about Ireland's Call from the rugger buggers.

I addressed the point to taytoland who conveniently ignored it. Of course it should be changed. What anthem did the north use at last commonwealth games? I remember them using danny boy at one of them recently.

FrancieBrady

alaimacerc wrote: »

It's not apolitical, it's "non-party political", as the rulebook puts it. Big difference. Plenty of politics in the rest of that document itself, indeed!


Who's saying Irish Nationalism is a bad thing!? We're just saying that Irish Nationalism is Irish Nationalism. Hence it's not a total surprise that even small-u unionism has an issue being asked to sign up to it, just to whack a ball around. Much as the likes of Francie would like to portray this in "don't want to have a Catholic about the place" terms.



Sure. Like the rest of the Gaa rulebook, for example. How could the Apprentice Boys in good faith sign up to a document that makes an irredentist claim over their little statelet, that they rather stridently see as British?

Still waiting on those pesky 'facts' that show the GAA behaving as a nationalist organisation.
Do they exclude other nationalities = nope.
Do they promote Irish culture as superior to other cultures = nope.
Do they denigrate other cultures/beliefs, in this case Unionism = nope

lawred2

Taytoland wrote: »

 Whatever helps you sleep.

He's right to be fair but no harm that you're deluding yourself

Taytoland

lawred2 wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

 Whatever helps you sleep.

He's right to be fair but no harm that you're deluding yourself

I need to see evidence for such claims. It's got nothing to do with beliefs/ideologies.

FrancieBrady

Taytoland wrote: »

I need to see evidence for such claims. It's got nothing to do with beliefs/ideologies.

Look to the DUP's angry reaction to being separated from the UK to avoid a hard border.

They are doing that because it means they (NI) will be treated as separate to the UK.

Look to the Scots looking for another Indy Ref because of the DUP and Tory backed Brexit.
This is the DUP who rushed to Scotland last time out when it looked like the Yes side would win it.

Look to opinion in the UK that now would rather Brexit (backed by the DUP and Tory's) happen than the UK staying together.


What more evidence do you need?

Taytoland

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

I need to see evidence for such claims. It's got nothing to do with beliefs/ideologies.

Look to the DUP's angry reaction to being separated from the UK to avoid a hard border.

They are doing that because it means they  (NI) will be treated as separate to the UK.

Look to the Scots looking for another Indy Ref because of the DUP and Tory backed Brexit.
This is the DUP who rushed to Scotland last time out when it looked like the Yes side would win it.

Look to opinion in the UK that now would rather Brexit (backed by the DUP and Tory's) happen than the UK staying together.


What more evidence do you need?

DUP are absolutely right on that and no Prime Minister could accept something so unconstitutional to the integrity of the United Kingdom. The SNP won't be getting another referendum anytime soon. But this is probably off topic, so apologies.

James Brown

Political leader attends a sporting event... I think it shows how the DUP are truly perceived when this is news in 2018, regardless of which side is spinning it. It should be so common place it's not even noted.

Danzy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Political leader attends a sporting event... I think it shows how the DUP are truly perceived when this is news in 2018, regardless of which side is spinning it. It should be so common place it's not even noted.

Inside a Church and at a GAA match in a 6 month period. 20 years ago it would have meant her leadership would be trouble and there would be many that would be imagining killing her for it.

FrancieBrady

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP are absolutely right on that and no Prime Minister could accept something so unconstitutional to the integrity of the United Kingdom. The SNP won't be getting another referendum anytime soon. But this is probably off topic, so apologies.

So everybody else has to concede their beliefs to keep Unionists from getting offended but when the shoe is on the other foot the Unionists are 'absolutely right' even though it will not affect their Britishness one little bit materially and an Irish sea solution will make Brexit immeasurably better for NI?

F*** me that is some hypocrisy there.

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Political leader attends a sporting event... I think it shows how the DUP are truly perceived when this is news in 2018, regardless of which side is spinning it. It should be so common place it's not even noted.

This is so true. The main political leaders would have been invited for years. Yet somehow this only happening now is the GAA's problem.

Ridiculous.

Taytoland

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP are absolutely right on that and no Prime Minister could accept something so unconstitutional to the integrity of the United Kingdom. The SNP won't be getting another referendum anytime soon. But this is probably off topic, so apologies.

So everybody else has to concede their beliefs to keep Unionists from getting offended but when the shoe is on the other foot the Unionists are 'absolutely right' even though it will not affect their Britishness one little bit materially and an Irish sea solution will make Brexit immeasurably better for NI?

F*** me that is some hypocrisy there.

You can have your beliefs, it's just no Prime Minister could ever accept it. We are told Brexit will rip up the GFA (one can hope!), but yet an Irish sea border won't and yet it would be a disaster for our biggest trader which is Great Britain and would literally change the face of the map of the Islands.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP are absolutely right on that and no Prime Minister could accept something so unconstitutional to the integrity of the United Kingdom. The SNP won't be getting another referendum anytime soon. But this is probably off topic, so apologies.

The problem is that Northern Ireland is already different to the rest of the UK in terms of human rights for women and laws regarding homosexuality. It's the DUP who are making efforts to keep Northern Ireland different from the rest of the UK.

This attitude has actually distanced some mainland British from Northern Ireland as evident by the fact that most leave voters would sacrifice Northern Ireland in order to leave the EU.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/leave-voters-would-choose-brexit-over-union-with-northern-ireland-poll-finds-37028200.html

steddyeddy

It's also worth pointing out that some members of the unionist community are changing their view on a united Ireland thanks to Brexit.

This report from Newsnight is eye opening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBtuwSixYoE

Junkyard Tom

Taytoland wrote: »

I need to see evidence for such claims. It's got nothing to do with beliefs/ideologies.

I like it that you pretend that nothing has changed and that the so-called 'union' is as secure as ever.

It's that level of utter delusion that has boosted a United Ireland firmly up the political agenda and brought it to the fore of the public consciousness like never before.

Keep up the good work.

Taytoland

steddyeddy wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

DUP are absolutely right on that and no Prime Minister could accept something so unconstitutional to the integrity of the United Kingdom. The SNP won't be getting another referendum anytime soon. But this is probably off topic, so apologies.

The problem is that Northern Ireland is already different to the rest of the UK in terms of human rights for women and laws regarding homosexuality. It's the DUP who are making efforts to keep Northern Ireland different from the rest of the UK.

This attitude has actually distanced some mainland British from Northern Ireland as evident by the fact that most leave voters would sacrifice Northern Ireland in order to leave the EU.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/leave-voters-would-choose-brexit-over-union-with-northern-ireland-poll-finds-37028200.html

You are talking social policies in a place which has had conservative politics for centuries, even longer than England before it went degenerate in many quarters. That is not remotely the same as the constitutional issue. When you have devolution you aren't going to have all parts of the Union having the same policies on social or economics.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

I need to see evidence for such claims. It's got nothing to do with beliefs/ideologies.

I like it that you pretend that nothing has changed and that the so-called 'union' is as secure as ever.

It's that level of utter delusion that has boosted a United Ireland firmly up the political agenda and brought it to the fore of the public consciousness like never before.

Keep up the good work.

What boosted political agenda? Irish nationalists have been talking about some mythical United Ireland for centuries based on some old mythology of the Irish race being rid of the evil English.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

You are talking social policies in a place which has had conservative politics for centuries, even longer than England before it went degenerate in many quarters. That is not remotely the same as the constitutional issue. When you have devolution you aren't going to have all parts of the Union having the same policies on social or economics.

What boosted political agenda? Irish nationalists have been talking about some mythical United Ireland for centuries based on some old mythology of the Irish race being rid of the evil English.

But now we see a huge increase in support for a united Ireland. It's not looking too mythical now and it would serve unionists better to vote for a party which bridges the communities together.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-united-ireland-referendum-northern-border-uk-yougov-poll-a8389086.html

Taytoland

steddyeddy wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

You are talking social policies in a place which has had conservative politics for centuries, even longer than England before it went degenerate in many quarters. That is not remotely the same as the constitutional issue. When you have devolution you aren't going to have all parts of the Union having the same policies on social or economics.

What boosted political agenda? Irish nationalists have been talking about some mythical United Ireland for centuries based on some old mythology of the Irish race being rid of the evil English.

But now we see a huge increase in support for a united Ireland. It's not looking too mythical now and it would serve unionists better to vote for a party which bridges the communities together.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-united-ireland-referendum-northern-border-uk-yougov-poll-a8389086.html

Two separate polls have found no evidence that Brexit has yet caused a radical shift in public opinion which would make a referendum on a united Ireland remotely winnable.

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif]https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/[/font]

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

Two separate polls have found no evidence that Brexit has yet caused a radical shift in public opinion which would make a referendum on a united Ireland remotely winnable.

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif]https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/[/font]

I said support has increased massively. The polls you linked were conducted earlier in the year. The one I linked is quite recent and an YouGov poll.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and increase support for a united Ireland like the DUP or you can engage with the other communities.

Taytoland

steddyeddy wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Two separate polls have found no evidence that Brexit has yet caused a radical shift in public opinion which would make a referendum on a united Ireland remotely winnable.

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif]https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/[/font]

I said support has increased massively. The polls you linked were conducted earlier in the year. The one I linked is quite recent and an YouGov poll.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and increase support for a united Ireland like the DUP or you can engage with the other communities.

It was just a poll last month. When was the Yougov poll taken? Fact is the vast majority of polls I have seen have the majority in favour of maintaining the Union.

Junkyard Tom

Taytoland wrote: »

What boosted political agenda?

We have political heads in Ireland and Britain who never before even spoke about a UI now discussing it; only last week Peter Robinson spoke to the need for an orderly poll/referendum with regards to a future United Ireland.

You know all this.

Irish nationalists have been talking about some mythical United Ireland for centuries

Ireland was partitioned in 1922. We've six counties currently under British jurisdiction subject to change. Like it or not the six counties currently under British jurisdiction will always be considered unfinished business for an awful lot of us.

This issue is not going away. Ever.

Taytoland

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

What boosted political agenda?

We have political heads in Ireland and Britain who never before even spoke about a UI now discussing it; only last week Peter Robinson spoke to the need for an orderly poll/referendum with regards to a future United Ireland.

You know all this.

Irish nationalists have been talking about some mythical United Ireland for centuries

Ireland was partitioned in 1922. We've six counties currently under British jurisdiction subject to change. Like it or not the six counties currently under British jurisdiction will always be considered unfinished business for an awful lot of is.

This issue is not going away. Ever.

What Peter Robinson said was common sense in regards to how Brexit was rushed in as far as the government not doing more preparations for a Brexit win. That is the fault of David Cameron. Robinson speech was right, Unionists should talk up the benefits of the Union and reach out the hand of friendship to people who might be so-so on the issue. Nationalists have nothing to fear in this new Union.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

It was just a poll last month. When was the Yougov poll taken? Fact is the vast majority of polls I have seen have the majority in favour of maintaining the Union.

The vast majority of polls have shown and continuous trend towards a united Ireland.

Junkyard Tom

Taytoland wrote: »

Unionists should talk up the benefits of the Union.

What benefits? The so-called union is under stress and the British would like to offload their expensive mistake in the northeast of Ireland.

The only reason the British haven't thrown unionists/NI under the bus already is because the DUP have them over a barrel.

The Tories and British establishment will not forget how the DUP hamstrung and humiliated them. Interesting times ahead.

Silent Running

Taytoland wrote: »

Two separate polls have found no evidence that Brexit has yet caused a radical shift in public opinion which would make a referendum on a united Ireland remotely winnable.

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif][/font]

But... Brexit hasn't happened yet. When the full effects of Brexit hit NI, anything might happen. Money talks after all, and when that voice gets smaller and smaller, people might see things differently.

Taytoland

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Unionists should talk up the benefits of the Union.

What benefits? The so-called union is under stress and the British would like to offload their expensive mistake in the northeast of Ireland.

The only reason the British haven't thrown unionists/NI under the bus already is because the DUP have them over a barrel.

The Tories and British establishment will not forget how the DUP hamstrung and humiliated them. Interesting times ahead.

The fact that we get access to the British single market in which NI trades with by far more than the EU. Northern Ireland leaving the Union would involve having to join the Euro currency (disaster for multiple reasons), leaving the NHS and using the inferior HSE, paid subscriptions. The health system situation of the HSE would make me not vote for it alone. Lots of valid reasons to wanting to remain in the Union.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

What Peter Robinson said was common sense in regards to how Brexit was rushed in as far as the government not doing more preparations for a Brexit win. That is the fault of David Cameron. Robinson speech was right, Unionists should talk up the benefits of the Union and reach out the hand of friendship to people who might be so-so on the issue. Nationalists have nothing to fear in this new Union.

How are the DUP promoting the union by promoting Northern Ireland leaving the biggest single market in the world?

Penfailed

After her comments this morning, it becomes apparent what her motivation was in turning up. She reckons SF representatives should now reach out to the Orange Order...

Donald Trump

Taytoland. I have a quick question. At the risk of veering off topic.

One thing I don't understand, from the perspective of the outsider (i.e not British) is how Northern Unionist feel about the dismissive attitude towards the North and it's issues from the British Establishment. I do honestly think that the North is an insignificant afterthought to the people/politicians in London and I wonder whether any of that feeling follows through to Northern Unionists. If so, does it bother you?

They don't really seem to care. They don't give a crap about the border issues because if there is a hard border, it has negligible impact on them. If there is a porous border, well it won't affect the "mainland" if there is a lot of smuggling etc. I don't think that they'd be quite so cavalier with a call for removal of any physical checks and the implementation of "technological solutions" as being sufficient post Brexit at Calais for example.

If you look at rte.ie any day, the front page will be filled with Brexit news and things about the North. If you look at bbc.com , you'll need to dig through a lot of crap and links to find anything related to Brexit impact on the North.

It just seems like they don't care about you nearly as much as you do about them. But do you disagree with that? Maybe you do. I'm interested to hear.

Taytoland

Donald Trump wrote: »

Taytoland. I have a quick question. At the risk of veering off topic.

One thing I don't understand, from the perspective of the outsider (i.e not British) is how Northern Unionist feel about the dismissive attitude towards the North and it's issues from the British Establishment. I do honestly think that the North is an insignificant afterthought to the people/politicians in London and I wonder whether any of that feeling follows through to Northern Unionists. If so, does it bother you?

They don't really seem to care. They don't give a crap about the border issues because if there is a hard border, it has negligible impact on them. If there is a porous border, well it won't affect the "mainland" if there is a lot of smuggling etc. I don't think that they'd be quite so cavalier with a call for removal of any physical checks and the implementation of "technological solutions" as being sufficient post Brexit at Calais for example.

If you look at rte.ie any day, the front page will be filled with Brexit news and things about the North. If you look at bbc.com , you'll need to dig through a lot of crap and links to find anything related to Brexit impact on the North.

It just seems like they don't care about you nearly as much as you do about them. But do you disagree with that? Maybe you do. I'm interested to hear.

The people in London don't give a sh*t what happens outside London, the people of England don't give a sh*t what happens in Scotland, the people of Wales don't give a sh*t what happens in England and the people of Scotland don't give a sh*t about England. But it still works and has for centuries. Of course I don't  expect London or England to care for Northern Ireland. 

I support the Union but it doesn't mean I care greatly about most matters involving Scotland or England outside of the big questions. But that's the same with Dublin or anything outside of Northern Ireland. I have only ever visited Dublin once in my life but barely seen anything of the rest of the Island. It doesn't particuarly bother me. 

I know basics on southern politics but I don't keep an eye on day to day politics in the state, who is controlling what departments, who is responsible for what. It's probably likewise with many with regards to Northern Ireland. I'd say a lot of people in the South couldn't give a sh*t about Northern Ireland or have a clue about the day to day situation or it's politics.

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

The people in London don't give a sh*t what happens outside London, the people of England don't give a sh*t what happens in Scotland, the people of Wales don't give a sh*t what happens in England and the people of Scotland don't give a sh*t about England. But it still works and has for centuries. Of course I don't expect London or England to care for Northern Ireland.

I support the Union but it doesn't mean I care greatly about most matters involving Scotland or England outside of the big questions. But that's the same with Dublin or anything outside of Northern Ireland. I have only ever visited Dublin once in my life but barely seen anything of the rest of the Island. It doesn't particuarly bother me.

I know basics on southern politics but I don't keep an eye on day to day politics in the state, who is controlling what departments, who is responsible for what. It's probably likewise with many with regards to Northern Ireland. I'd say a lot of people in the South couldn't give a sh*t about Northern Ireland or have a clue about the day to day situation or it's politics.

As a "Southerner" I do follow the news about the North. While in the normal course of events I don't really understand the fascination with burning pallets and that sort of craic, I do have an interest in that part of the world generally. And from the media coverage given to it in the Irish (Southern) media I would think that there is more interest/concern down here than across the water. I don't care what happens in Leeds or Suffolk or Edinburgh so much for example.



Whether that is because it affects people here more directly, i don't know. But you should compare even those two examples of websites I gave.



Given that, I don't see why there wouldn't be a little more consideration given to looking South rather than West for your future. The north will always be an insignificant part of the UK but it could be an important part of Ireland