Any of you never had a relationship?

H3llR4iser

Wibbs wrote: »

You don't tend to hear women say "foreign men are [insert positive traits here] and our men are [insert negative traits here]" nearly so much

I have heard exactly that plenty of times; Especially from Irish women towards Irish men. When it comes to foreigners, it really depends - certain nationalities are exactly the same if not worse (e.g. ladies from "former Soviet block" countries DO tend to call their own countrymen all sorts of bad names), others nationalities will instead seem more or less xenophobic - even if they live here, they actively seek men from either their own country, or one they deem "good enough" - the list of which changes depending on the woman's nationality (usually restricted to culturally similar countries e.g. Italy + Spain + Argentina).



Being blunt and unapologetic, the vast majority of the complaints I hear from Irish and foreign women about Irish men revolve around a handful of easily amendable things:


1. Drinking culture;
2. Stupid / laddish behaviour mostly built around #1 (e.g. "I got so drunk last night!" talk);

3. Wearing fcuking GAA jerseys everywhere

Wibbs wrote: »

Now given that men having a preference for and going out with "foreign" women are obviously finding such women, but like I say I've heard very few women doing the same, at least in Ireland and Europe in general. I did see it back in the 90's where women from the former Soviet states were actively looking for men from outside of that, but that was more down to more choice and economics.

It is indeed true there are actually studies that prove how in terms of partner choice, women tend to stick to "safe & known", preferring local men for a number of real, measurable advantages - networking and support above all.



Men, on the other hand, are way more likely to be swayed by the "exotic" aspect of a foreign woman.

professore wrote: »

It's DEFINITELY easier with non Irish women. Most DEFINITELY not confirmation bias. An average Irish woman would NEVER give you any signals she's interested unless you are in the top 5% in her head. Also many are very puritanical and ultra sensitive and have no idea how to flirt. Or maybe that's just because they aren't attracted, as a hot foreign man can say anything to them. I guess you are attracted to difference, apparently gingers are swimming in women in Italy and Spain.

Literally had more flirting in half an hour with a Spanish woman recently than I've had in my whole life with Irish women. And it was only fun as I'm married to a Belgian woman. Very sad.

I have to agree on the part that there are definitely differences; I am actually in the "mirror universe" as in I'm a foreigner living in Ireland and even I can see there are some valid points made.



But let me get this straight: a lot the differences and issues are cultural, and in many cases are actually initiated by men; From only trying to approach women when insanely drunk, to being exceedingly insistent and having no standards (hence creating the "why pick this guy, someone better will come along"), to approaching girls in groups, which is normally a surefire recipe for being laughed off and/or insulted, the catalog is vast.


Certainly there is also an issue on the attitude on the other side; It's unfair to assume anybody approaching you on a night's out to be drunk beyond belief; Also, it's perfectly understandable to politely "tell off" someone you don't like but it's not to act annoyed, offended or insulting - you are in a "social" place afterall, and you can't really blame somebody for trying to talk to you.

Pussyhands

I'm slightly younger than OP but never had a gf either.

I like my own company too much. People in relationships always seem to have to make sacrafices. "I have to go to her nieces christening", "have to pick up herself from work"...etc

I just like having the absolute freedom of not worrying about anyone else, or risk disappointing them...feeling pressured into doing something. I can go for a cycle or run on a whim without affecting any plans for dinner etc. Things like that.

I've gone on dates and met women and got on well with some....but I've purposelly not gotten too close to them. For example I met this nice foreign girl, 9 years older than me. 1 reason for not wanting anything to develop is fearing what my parents would think...they're not conservative or anything but I could imagine the comments..I'd actually be really embarassed to tell them I was seeing any girl...terrible I know! But I can't help it. Another one is the babies situation...what if she wants kids?

Another reason is as soon as I seem to click with someone I instantly imagine that this could be the partner for the rest of your life and that is scary...

shakeitoff

How much of you just aren't attractive to girls though? Wanting your own freedom but playing the field is different than struggling to get women's attention. I'm handsome but girls don't seem to care. Seems they prefer uglier guys with gregarious 'alpha' personalities than pretty/handsome guy who is kinda meek.

shakeitoff

shakeitoff wrote: »

How much of you just aren't attractive to girls though? Wanting your own freedom but playing the field is different than struggling to get women's attention. I'm handsome but girls don't seem to care. Seems they prefer uglier guys with gregarious 'alpha' personalities than pretty/handsome guy who is kinda meek.

Well... in Ireland, I was told I wasn't attractive (although my mother said I was gorgeous). I was tall, skinny, with no muscle mass. My face is kinda long, with a rather large nose. By Irish standards I'm not terribly attractive.

But here's the thing. Through actual dating experiences.... In France, I am physically attractive. In Italy, I am physically attractive. In the US, I'm just okay. In China, I'm a sexy beast.

Different cultures have different standards. Personally, I'm not in the slightest bit attracted to most Irish women. It's not even a reaction to their attitude to me. There were times in my teens when I wondered if I was gay, because the few Irish women I did find attractive were so at odds with what was popular. Irelands' population is so low as to limit your choice, especially if you're outside Dublin, but even in Dublin, your options are limited.

As for personality, that can be developed by your own choices, and exploration. I don't use my physical attractiveness to be with women... I use my personality, knowledge and general charm... There are women who focus on physical appearance over that of personality.. just as there's men who do the same. Women brag all the time that they're more emotional, and more interested in personality, but most of that is spin. It's human nature to be interested in the physical. It just depends how important that is to you.

lastly... being meek. It's dating suicide. Practice being more confident. Most people are faking it anyway, and if you do it enough, it'll simply become automatic.

shakeitoff

Interesting. Do you think there's that big of a difference between France and Ireland though? Are good looks not universal?

shakeitoff

shakeitoff wrote: »

Interesting. Do you think there's that big of a difference between France and Ireland though? Are good looks not universal?

What consists of good looks though? France with a larger population means that there's more variety as to what constitutes being attractive.

Let me put it this way. This is pure guesswork though. While there are the women who go for the muscular gorgeous guys, or the rugged types, French movies/media have been showing the skinny guy in romantic movies for decades. There's more exposure in French culture for a variety of men to be deemed attractive.

What I would say is that I was far more successful in France than in Ireland, even to the point where French women would approach me in cafes, or bars to meet for romantic purposes. Sure there were some who just wanted to be friends, but they were a minority compared to the whole.

As for is there a big difference? yes, I would say there is. I can't really explain why though, without offending every Irish woman..

shakeitoff

Deleted User wrote: »

What consists of good looks though? France with a larger population means that there's more variety as to what constitutes being attractive.

Let me put it this way. This is pure guesswork though. While there are the women who go for the muscular gorgeous guys, or the rugged types, French movies/media have been showing the skinny guy in romantic movies for decades. There's more exposure in French culture for a variety of men to be deemed attractive.

What I would say is that I was far more successful in France than in Ireland, even to the point where French women would approach me in cafes, or bars to meet for romantic purposes. Sure there were some who just wanted to be friends, but they were a minority compared to the whole.

As for is there a big difference? yes, I would say there is. I can't really explain why though, without offending every Irish woman..

What kinda guys are attractive in Ireland? Guys like Conor Murray seem to be what is deemed conventionally attractive here among masses. Big robust skull, strong facial bones, darkish features. I'd imagine pretty boy look isn't that popular in Ireland, take the Patrice character from The Inbetweeners episode for example. I don't think Irish women like that type of look in general.

Wibbs

shakeitoff wrote: »

How much of you just aren't attractive to girls though? Wanting your own freedom but playing the field is different than struggling to get women's attention.

My take would be along the lines of Klaz'. "Good looking" is generally universal these days with worldwide mass communication, "attractive" is far more variable and local. Though - and this is just my humble, and in men anyway, as I have found in my experience that Women™ have a wider range of what attracts them than men - there are a few consistent traits that tend to be seen as attractive: social confidence, health, emotional stability, social "power"(that can be money or talent or renown or being "exotic"), easy going, not being a lapdog, sense of humour(which more means a man who can laugh off life's daft stuff, rather than a standup comedian) and other women being at ease with them.

I'm handsome but girls don't seem to care. Seems they prefer uglier guys with gregarious 'alpha' personalities than pretty/handsome guy who is kinda meek.

See above. Handsome generally comes way down the list particularly beyond the teen years. Even in the teen years handsome and socially awkward is not a great draw. For obvious reasons. Handsome is fine, but if conversation and social interactions are like drawing blood from a stone that get's boring bloody quickly. I would also agree with Klaz when he says meek is dating suicide. Yes there will be guys like that who "got lucky" with a woman, but as I said Women™ have more of a range in what they may find attractive, but said meek guy will have far fewer choices and far fewer occasions of being "lucky".

The " uglier guys with gregarious 'alpha' personalities" as you put it are all things being equal simply more fun and easier to be around. And don't get me started on the alpha stuff. 9 times outa 10 this is usually the label socially awkward lads put on men who aren't socially awkward. If you're a chap who thinks himself an "introvert" and sees "extroverts" as ****, then you're likely one of those socially awkward. And that's fine. So long as one doesn't get into the woe is me blame game cycle of defeat.

TL;DR? People generally prefer to be around fun and normally gregarious people who aren't wrapped up in themselves and their world. Stop The Presses!! Women are people. :eek: The more you meet and talk with(not to) the more your choices go up. It's fairly simple.

Wibbs

shakeitoff wrote: »

I don't think Irish women like that type of look in general.

Irish Women™ are not some alien species. It would be my humble and my experience that they're pretty much the same as Women™ everywhere. The population pool is smaller yes, but again in my humble it's more about some Irish Men™ and their approach. About the only standout I've noticed with Irish women™ is of a night out. They're more defensive of approaches, but that's down to the drinking culture and long experiences of drunk eejits getting handsy and assuming too much, so they build up that defensiveness as... well, a defence. "Foreign women"™ from non #getoffyourtits cultures are less likely to do that, and you're exotic to them, so that's a draw. Irish culture is a bit behind the curve of the sexual revolution too and in some ways we've lurched into it, and sometimes overcompensate for it, so that can be a factor too. With both sexes.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Irish Women™ are not some alien species. It would be my humble and my experience that they're pretty much the same as Women™ everywhere. The population pool is smaller yes, but again in my humble it's more about some Irish Men™ and their approach. About the only standout I've noticed with Irish women™ is of a night out. They're more defensive of approaches, but that's down to the drinking culture and long experiences of drunk eejits getting handsy and assuming too much, so they build up that defensiveness as... well, a defence. "Foreign women"™ from non #getoffyourtits cultures are less likely to do that, and you're exotic to them, so that's a draw. Irish culture is a bit behind the curve of the sexual revolution too and in some ways we've lurched into it, and sometimes overcompensate for it, so that can be a factor too. With both sexes.

I'd have to disagree with you here. Irish women (on a night out) quite often have far more in common with Irish men than they would with foreign women (I'd include British with Irish in this case). A lot of the Irish women I've known, are down with the heavy drinking, the coarse jokes, the almost infantile practical jokes on others, the drunken flirting etc. Irish men get blamed for a lot of things, but Irish women are just as bad in many respects, and often the men are encouraged to be that way by the women they date.

Mainstream Irish culture doesn't revolve around cocktail bars and being "ladylike". Instead, the focus is more about being "one of the lads". That's not to say that they won't dress up and wear makeup but it's not the same as in other countries where the style is almost more "natural", and less self-conscious.

I didn't really want to talk about this part, because Irish posters tend to get offended when Irish women are "criticised" (although it's not really a criticism since most Irish guys like this kind of woman)... But, for me, the reason I don't find Irish women attractive is twofold.

Physical attractive in terms of body types since I do prefer slim women (in Ireland it's considered skinny, but elsewhere simply slim), and most Irish women tend to lose their slimness after their early 20s. The second reason is more about style and personality. I don't want to date a man, and compared to most foreign women, Irish women are far more masculine in their habits. I do prefer a woman who enjoys wearing dresses, high heels, and knows how to put on makeup without looking like a Goth princess, just as I like a woman who doesn't enjoy nightclub or getting drunk but enjoys a single glass of wine. I just don't find that much in Ireland. (I can find irish women who enjoy a glass of wine, but usually they're looking to finish the bottle too, or get a second one.)

But that's my "taste". No doubt someone will get their back up over what I've just said... saying I'm being unreasonable, and I am being unreasonable... for Ireland. Not unreasonable "on the Continent" or further afield.

Trebor176

32, and I've never had a relationship. Dates, yes, but few and far between. I always seem to be rejected very early on!

Wibbs

Never did the "date" thing as such. Sure I've been on a couple, but found them a bit forced and kinda scripted interview vibe myself. Of those I went on, one was pretty obviously spark free within minutes of it kicking off, but we acknowledged that and had a pretty good night actually. Another went well, but fizzled out mutually soon enough after a few weeks. One I remember was one of those interview type deals with the woman only short of pulling out her laptop and doing a spreadsheet of my pros and cons. She also brought up marriage and kids. On a first date. Yeah. And nope.

TBH I'd be much more "European" and older style Irish, rather than "American dating culture" in this regard. IE meet someone, through friends, or work, or randomly and hang out and see where it goes for both of us. More organic so to speak. Well that's how I ended up in relationships, both long and short term and found it easy enough, certainly past 30. I suppose because I'm older and wasn't brought up in the dating culture? If I was actively "in the market" these days I'd probably have to play that game.

Different cultures/countries, different dating practices. Like China tends to be very formal/strict about how dating happens, whereas I found the opposite in Italy. Still date/dating but the emphasis is different.

Pug160

I'm not sure if you guys have taken note of this as well, but over the past year or two I have noticed that quite a lot of handsome men are making the news for violent attacks and other crimes. Now whether or not that fact is noteworthy in and of itself is up for debate, but I guess it does kind of remind you that whilst being physically attractive is desirable, it's by no means the be-all and end-all, and is certainly no guarantee that you will be happy in life and emotionally stable.

erudec

professore wrote: »

It's DEFINITELY easier with non Irish women. Most DEFINITELY not confirmation bias. An average Irish woman would NEVER give you any signals she's interested unless you are in the top 5% in her head. Also many are very puritanical and ultra sensitive and have no idea how to flirt. Or maybe that's just because they aren't attracted, as a hot foreign man can say anything to them. I guess you are attracted to difference, apparently gingers are swimming in women in Italy and Spain.

Literally had more flirting in half an hour with a Spanish woman recently than I've had in my whole life with Irish women. And it was only fun as I'm married to a Belgian woman. Very sad.

From a lurking lady's point of view, I recall having a mad crush on an exchange student boy. A few years later I saw a photograph of him and I was stunned at how ordinary-looking he was. I assume that the accent and foreign mannerisms made him a far more tempting package than he would have been if the lad was just another Dub.

I must say I am EXTREMELY grateful that in this culture, I and nine tenths of other Irish women can be totally passive in terms of finding a mate, secure in the knowledge that lots of men would do the heavy lifting, taking all the risk of rejection and leaving me with nothing to do but choose.

Stepping Stone

Wibbs wrote: »

My take would be along the lines of Klaz'. "Good looking" is generally universal these days with worldwide mass communication, "attractive" is far more variable and local. Though - and this is just my humble, and in men anyway, as I have found in my experience that Women™ have a wider range of what attracts them than men - there are a few consistent traits that tend to be seen as attractive: social confidence, health, emotional stability, social "power"(that can be money or talent or renown or being "exotic"), easy going, not being a lapdog, sense of humour(which more means a man who can laugh off life's daft stuff, rather than a standup comedian) and other women being at ease with them.

See above. Handsome generally comes way down the list particularly beyond the teen years. Even in the teen years handsome and socially awkward is not a great draw. For obvious reasons. Handsome is fine, but if conversation and social interactions are like drawing blood from a stone that get's boring bloody quickly. I would also agree with Klaz when he says meek is dating suicide. Yes there will be guys like that who "got lucky" with a woman, but as I said Women™ have more of a range in what they may find attractive, but said meek guy will have far fewer choices and far fewer occasions of being "lucky".

The " uglier guys with gregarious 'alpha' personalities" as you put it are all things being equal simply more fun and easier to be around. And don't get me started on the alpha stuff. 9 times outa 10 this is usually the label socially awkward lads put on men who aren't socially awkward. If you're a chap who thinks himself an "introvert" and sees "extroverts" as ****, then you're likely one of those socially awkward. And that's fine. So long as one doesn't get into the woe is me blame game cycle of defeat.

TL;DR? People generally prefer to be around fun and normally gregarious people who aren't wrapped up in themselves and their world. Stop The Presses!! Women are people. :eek: The more you meet and talk with(not to) the more your choices go up. It's fairly simple.

As a female, I completely agree with Wibbs. Attraction is so much more than skin deep. I think that my OH is gorgeous and sexy, but to everyone else, he probably isn’t. He makes me laugh like nobody else and he is just a great person to spend time with. I sit beside a conventionally handsome man at work, lovely guy, really nice and kind but he is as dull as dishwater! I just couldn’t be attracted to him.

The reference to meekness kind of puzzles me. What is meek vs alpha?! I think the reference to uglier men shows an insecurity and jealousy that women are probably picking up on.

I have known plenty of less physically attractive men that are seriously attractive due to attitude, personality, etc.

It’s not all about the looks! I am sure that you can all think of a female that you have been attracted to that is less than conventionally attractive.

Gothenso

Pug160 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you guys have taken note of this as well, but over the past year or two I have noticed that quite a lot of handsome men are making the news for violent attacks and other crimes. Now whether or not that fact is noteworthy in and of itself is up for debate, but I guess it does kind of remind you that whilst being physically attractive is desirable, it's by no means the be-all and end-all, and is certainly no guarantee that you will be happy in life and emotionally stable.

Ted Bundy comes to mind😆

shakeitoff

I always feel men are only as good looking as their worst feature. Women have a great way of weeding out men in ways that aren't always obviously. Handsome but not tall, good luck. Good body but a below average face, you compensating son, handsome and you may be too pretty. It's a bloodbath out there. Being funny seems to be the best way to be attractive but problem is there is a type of humour women in general like which some guys have. Women love bantering humour where they are teased and made fun of, if you can pull this off you might be able to get yourself a girl.

rainbowtrout

shakeitoff wrote: »

Women love bantering humour where they are teased and made fun of, if you can pull this off you might be able to get yourself a girl.

Bit of a generalisation there.

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Bit of a generalisation there.

Any discussion on a topic like this is going to be chock full of generalisations.

someyoke

shakeitoff wrote: »

I always feel men are only as good looking as their worst feature. Women have a great way of weeding out men in ways that aren't always obviously. Handsome but not tall, good luck. Good body but a below average face, you compensating son, handsome and you may be too pretty. It's a bloodbath out there. Being funny seems to be the best way to be attractive but problem is there is a type of humour women in general like which some guys have. Women love bantering humour where they are teased and made fun of, if you can pull this off you might be able to get yourself a girl.

Tall and bald/shaved seems to be a bit of a winning formula here. One or other of those qualities with gift of the gab and you'd be better off than small and handsome with poor gab(if that's a term:))I'd consider myself to have a GSOH but the ladies might beg to differ!

Pug160

shakeitoff wrote: »

I always feel men are only as good looking as their worst feature. Women have a great way of weeding out men in ways that aren't always obviously. Handsome but not tall, good luck. Good body but a below average face, you compensating son, handsome and you may be too pretty. It's a bloodbath out there. Being funny seems to be the best way to be attractive but problem is there is a type of humour women in general like which some guys have. Women love bantering humour where they are teased and made fun of, if you can pull this off you might be able to get yourself a girl.

I would have to respectfully disagree with that first line. There is definitely a scale of importance. Being blessed physically from the neck up is what makes someone handsome or attractive - first and foremost. It's all largely genetic of course, with all sorts of different kinds of ratios going on which will ultimately decide how the person will look. The shape of the cranium, jawline, cheek bones, and all sorts of other things. A handsome short man is still handsome - the only downside is that his pool of potential mates is more limited, but the ''quality'' is not. There would be plenty of attractive women his height or shorter, and plenty who would be slightly taller who would still be attracted to him. I guess my first reaction to reading your post was that you may not have been around a lot of handsome men and/or have watched them from the sidelines. I don't really think there is a ''weeding out'' as such, as attraction is involuntary. If someone is handsome enough a lot of barriers disappear. One friend of mine in particular is always breaking these so called conventions. He is around my height (5'10'') and has dated women up to 6'1''. He has imperfections but for the most part is very handsome. The higher the attraction, the less important these obsticles appear to be. What you have written is similar to what I may have thought a few years back mind you.

I know that there was a big scale study done a few years back, which showed that most couples were roughly similar to each other in attractiveness. I think it gets mentioned quite a lot. Any reasonable discussion has to start with that kind of scientific truth, then the more speculative stuff can follow. It has to be there as some kind of reference point at least. As for physical attractiveness in general, some studies have linked intelligence with better aesthetics. There are always plenty of exceptions of course. It does mean that there are some people who just seem to have everything going for them. But that is not a new discovery by any means, is it. I'm not sure how many of you have noticed this as well, but a lot of the more handsome guys seem to have some kind of ''exotic'' person in their (recent) family tree. Maybe an Italian grandfather or something like that. That's something I've noticed a lot.

I find attractiveness to be a bit amusing TBH. I've found that in many ways its a cultural thing which encourages certain 'features' to be more appealing than others. I've traveled extensively during most of which I was single. I won't say that I "played" but I was always open to new encounters or experiences. While in Ireland/uk, I wouldn't have been considered handsome, in other countries I am. In Asia, I'm very good looking due to pale skin, a big nose, and being tall. Oh, and my blue eyes. In parts of Africa, I was considered attractive because I was slim, and also the color of my skin. In Southern Europe, I was average although I remained quite popular... and in Eastern Europe/Russia... ahh well, there's always a feeling that my EU citizenship is a factor.

But through all my experiences, whenever my physical attractiveness failed or didn't register... my personality, experience and knowledge could usually swing the opinions. Even to the point where I was with women who had far "better" choices in younger, more handsome, or richer men.

Attractiveness can't really be generalised since it's a personal thing... and most of us don't really understand it. I know the kinds of women I like, but I'm often attracted to women who are completely outside of those guidelines. it's instinctual... although I've found for other people, they tend to follow certain cultural influences probably from their background while growing up.. For myself, I wasn't successful with women for my first 30 years, so I was a pretty clean slate when I went abroad, except I knew what I didn't like.

Since then, my personal knowledge about my attractions has developed but honestly... I won't know if I'm genuinely attracted to someone until I see them in front of me. Photos don't really do anything for me, beyond a basic appreciation.

erudec

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I find attractiveness to be a bit amusing TBH. I've found that in many ways its a cultural thing which encourages certain 'features' to be more appealing than others. I've traveled extensively during most of which I was single. I won't say that I "played" but I was always open to new encounters or experiences. While in Ireland/uk, I wouldn't have been considered handsome, in other countries I am. In Asia, I'm very good looking due to pale skin, a big nose, and being tall. Oh, and my blue eyes. In parts of Africa, I was considered attractive because I was slim, and also the color of my skin. In Southern Europe, I was average although I remained quite popular... and in Eastern Europe/Russia... ahh well, there's always a feeling that my EU citizenship is a factor.

But through all my experiences, whenever my physical attractiveness failed or didn't register... my personality, experience and knowledge could usually swing the opinions. Even to the point where I was with women who had far "better" choices in younger, more handsome, or richer men.

Attractiveness can't really be generalised since it's a personal thing... and most of us don't really understand it. I know the kinds of women I like, but I'm often attracted to women who are completely outside of those guidelines. it's instinctual... although I've found for other people, they tend to follow certain cultural influences probably from their background while growing up.. For myself, I wasn't successful with women for my first 30 years, so I was a pretty clean slate when I went abroad, except I knew what I didn't like.

Since then, my personal knowledge about my attractions has developed but honestly... I won't know if I'm genuinely attracted to someone until I see them in front of me. Photos don't really do anything for me, beyond a basic appreciation.

For every 10 men who have never had a relationship, there's probably a similar number of women.

Although many women have had one-night stands with men who have absolutely no interest in being seen with them in public, let alone a relationship. And if my friends are anything to go by, they often delude themselves that they are actually in a relationship with a guy who just used them for sex one time.

I don't think that such wishful thinking counts as "having a relationship"

What do you think?

erudec

erudec wrote: »

For every 10 men who have never had a relationship, there's probably a similar number of women.

Although many women have had one-night stands with men who have absolutely no interest in being seen with them in public, let alone a relationship. And if my friends are anything to go by, they often delude themselves that they are actually in a relationship with a guy who just used them for sex one time.

]

Ahh well, I don't go in with this idea of women being naive, innocent creatures with no real control over their lives. It doesn't match with my experience of women.

Women who have sex with a guy, pretty much know what they're getting themselves into. Our society is very prominent about sexual experience.. something I never realised until I'd lived in other cultures like in Asia, where sex is more of an underground thing. More like Ireland of the 50s perhaps... Ireland though has changed a lot more in the last 20 years... (most women my age or younger having never experienced living in an unequal society) so, no, I suspect the vast majority of women enter into a sexual encounter knowing exactly what will probably happen. I've always been convinced that women are better than men at detecting BS, and those that don't, are simply seeking such an experience. I've found that many women seek out the experience of being a "victim" of their own making, and love the drama that entails, whether for their own emotional experience or to relate to their friends.

I don't think that such wishful thinking counts as "having a relationship"

What do you think?

Depends on what you define a relationship to be. I consider a relationship to start when I've slept with someone three times, and we both want it to continue. If you mean a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship, then I define it as when we agree to be exclusive to each other... And then, there's a whole host of casual, semi-casual or serious relationships on top of that. I've had a relationship with a woman who I've known for 15 years, usually as a friend, but we're often very intimate with each other both sexually, and romantically... we love each other but hate extended periods together. But my friends wouldn't consider that to be a relationship... I do.

But... my friends are all different in how they term a relationship compared to each other. When I taught in universities abroad, we would talk about relationships, and while there is a common cultural definition of what a relationship entails, most people had their own "little" twist of how it was... depending on their own experience (or lack of experience).

Galwayguy35

erudec wrote: »

I must say I am EXTREMELY grateful that in this culture, I and nine tenths of other Irish women can be totally passive in terms of finding a mate, secure in the knowledge that lots of men would do the heavy lifting, taking all the risk of rejection and leaving me with nothing to do but choose.

That's something I'd like to see changing, how about women make the first move some of the time.

I've seen women giving out that men only approach them when they have a few beers in them while seemingly not realising that it's not easy for a lot of lads to make the first move without a bit of dutch courage from the alcohol.

Obviously I'm not talking about someone who is so pissed he can't stand up.

Pug160

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

That's something I'd like to see changing, how about women make the first move some of the time.

I've seen women giving out that men only approach them when they have a few beers in them while seemingly not realising that it's not easy for a lot of lads to make the first move without a bit of dutch courage from the alcohol.

Obviously I'm not talking about someone who is so pissed he can't stand up.

Well in theory they do, just not in a really obvious way usually. When it is more obvious, quite often it doesn't seem to work out, at least not in the long run. Just playing devil's advocate here, but if a man cannot approach a woman or approach her competently, then it probably indicates other flaws he probably has as well, which would not bode well in a relationship.

It's not easy though, and it sometimes gets worse with age instead of better. And the sad part is, a lot of guys have missed out on lots of opportunites, myself included.

Pussyhands

I used to think approaching women was impossible. Then I got to know foreign women.

Irish women seem to be always on the defensive.its like they're thinking any man who talks to them is asking to ride them there and then.

Irish women are not open minded imo.

Pug160

A question for the guys who are in the same boat: how do you think you'll approach this subject if and when you do meet someone and decide to take it further? Will you be blunt about it or try to tackle it in an ambiguous way? In other words, give politician type answers. Obviously, most of us are fairly mature minded and don't want to deal with it in an immature way, or do anything that would compromise our morality. But most of us are also aware that we are outliers and that this will be seen as a big red flag to many women. So it does leave us with a conundrum. It's not all doom and gloom of course, and there is no reason anybody in the same position can't overcome it. But to put this into some kind of perspective, some women would probably be more shocked that a man had never been in a relationship by a certain age, than she would be if he told her he had a criminal record or something like that.

For me, it's a kind of ''cross that bridge when I come to it'' sort of thing. I don't really know what I'll do.

ancapailldorcha

Pug160 wrote: »

A question for the guys who are in the same boat: how do you think you'll approach this subject if and when you do meet someone and decide to take it further? Will you be blunt about it or try to tackle it in an ambiguous way? In other words, give politician type answers. Obviously, most of us are fairly mature minded and don't want to deal with it in an immature way, or do anything that would compromise our morality. But most of us are also aware that we are outliers and that this will be seen as a big red flag to many women. So it does leave us with a conundrum. It's not all doom and gloom of course, and there is no reason anybody in the same position can't overcome it. But to put this into some kind of perspective, some women would probably be more shocked that a man had never been in a relationship by a certain age, than she would be if he told her he had a criminal record or something like that.

For me, it's a kind of ''cross that bridge when I come to it'' sort of thing. I don't really know what I'll do.

Honestly, it's a mix of awkwardness and being accustomed to the single life. I'm at the stage where I confidently enjoy my own company and do my own thing be it wandering around, going to museums, hiking, movies, gaming, etc... I'm quite fond of my "me time" and the thought of anyone trying to encroach upon it such as a former landlord expressing an interest in joining me on one of my countryside constitutionals is horrifying.

Then there's the awkwardness. I work in a global university which is full to the brim of highly intelligent women (one upside of gender diversity initiatives) who are at the top of their field (Biomedical and cancer research if you're wondering). I expressed frustration at a very small work meeting when I'd a few pints in me only to be told that one of the medics likes me. I'd no idea and, frankly find the prospect dubious. I chat to her when I see her which isn't often. A housemate suggested setting me up with one of her friends. Not wishing to cause offence, I expressed enthusiasm only for it to come to naught.

TLDR; a mix of bemusement and reluctance.