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America's Child Abduction Policy

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    #182
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Cruel and inhuman treatment is neither lawful nor justifiable anywhere. This is like saying if someone is caught stealing then their hands should be cut off. Oh, wait, that's what they do in Saudi Arabia. There are some basic principles that form the pillars of western democracy, such as proportional enforcement of the law. Inflicting punishment on innocent people (in this case children) is against every convention and understanding of human rights. Those response are those who make the CHOICE to inflict this punishment.
    Firstly, if people are arriving or entering the border seeking asylum, the US has a duty under treaties and international law to assess these claims fairly before making a decision. Not to arbitrary arrest the adults and separate the children.
    If they are not seeking asylum and are simply illegally crossing the border, this still does not justify inflicting horrific trauma on the children. They can just as easily house the families together in these centers till they are either deported back or if they need to be assessed as refugees then they can enter the appropriate pathway for that.
    It is deeply disheartening to see just how brazenly people like you are willing to justify this kind of cruel, inhumane and utterly unnecessary treatment of children. 
    It is reprehensible in every way and shame on those who support and defend it.

    I have nothing much to add, this is it in a nutshell. I think I will simply quote this post every few pages.
    It won't do much good for the people who are sitting at their desks with a picture of Trump, a bottle of lotion and their trousers round their ankles, but then again nothing short of a 5mm HSS will.


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    #183
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    topper75 wrote: »

    Xenophobia is irrational fear of foreigners, which is nothing to do with rational expectations that people will enter your country en masse if borders aren't managed tightly.

    Let's put a nail in this kind of daft comment. Phobia =/= fear.

    xenophobia
    zɛnəˈfəʊbɪə/Submit
    noun
    dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.
    "racism and xenophobia are steadily growing in Europe"

    phobia
    ˈfəʊbɪə/Submit
    noun
    noun: phobia; plural noun: phobias
    an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
    "she suffered from a phobia about birds"
    synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror, dislike, hatred, loathing, detestation, distaste, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, repulsion


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    #184
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Cruel and inhuman treatment is neither lawful nor justifiable anywhere. This is like saying if someone is caught stealing then their hands should be cut off. Oh, wait, that's what they do in Saudi Arabia. There are some basic principles that form the pillars of western democracy, such as proportional enforcement of the law. Inflicting punishment on innocent people (in this case children) is against every convention and understanding of human rights. Those response are those who make the CHOICE to inflict this punishment.
    Firstly, if people are arriving or entering the border seeking asylum, the US has a duty under treaties and international law to assess these claims fairly before making a decision. Not to arbitrary arrest the adults and separate the children.
    If they are not seeking asylum and are simply illegally crossing the border, this still does not justify inflicting horrific trauma on the children. They can just as easily house the families together in these centers till they are either deported back or if they need to be assessed as refugees then they can enter the appropriate pathway for that.
    It is deeply disheartening to see just how brazenly people like you are willing to justify this kind of cruel, inhumane and utterly unnecessary treatment of children. 
    It is reprehensible in every way and shame on those who support and defend it.

    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.


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    #185
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Firstly, if people are arriving or entering the border seeking asylum, the US has a duty under treaties and international law to assess these claims fairly before making a decision.

    They can be assessed as invalid immediately, it's not possible to arrive at the US without transiting through a safe country.


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    #186
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.

    And you are talking as if a misdemeanour was equivalent to serious criminality. It's not in reality, and it's not in US law.


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    #187
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Ok we can all agree what happing is not right and is very drastic
    Here a serious question if people are now aware this will happen if you are caught will you have sympathy for them if they are caught breaking the law in full knowledge of what will happen to them and there children ?


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    #188
    Banterbus28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Banterbus28


    Nermal wrote: »
    Memnoch wrote: »
    Firstly, if people are arriving or entering the border seeking asylum, the US has a duty under treaties and international law to assess these claims fairly before making a decision.

    They can be assessed as invalid immediately, it's not possible to arrive at the US without transiting through a safe country.

    You can then make a request for asylum in any country that has a consulate in the US.

    You can arrive in the US from Canada....


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    #189
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Ok we can all agree what happing is not right and is very drastic
    Here a serious question if people are now aware this will happen if you are caught will you have sympathy for them if they are caught breaking the law in full knowledge of what will happen to them and there children ?

    Not even a tiny bit of sympathy for anyone that this happens to now. It is worldwide news, anyone arriving with their kids deserves exactly what they will get.


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    #190
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.

    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.


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    #191
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Ok we can all agree what happing is not right and is very drastic
    Here a serious question if people are now aware this will happen if you are caught will you have sympathy for them if they are caught breaking the law in full knowledge of what will happen to them and there children ?

    No matter what happens from here on out the American Government is putting kids into interment camps. It really doesn't matter what others do. The west should be better than this.


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    #192
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Ok we can all agree what happing is not right and is very drastic
    Here a serious question if people are now aware this will happen if you are caught will you have sympathy for them if they are caught breaking the law in full knowledge of what will happen to them and there children ?
    Why is it not right? They are knowingly breaking the law. The parents are at fault, not the border agencies. They are just following the rule of law and I have no issue with it. People need to learn you can't just do what you want in this life, you need to follow the law and by just crossing the border they are breaking the law.

    Why some seem to struggle with this is beyond me. You can not let people enter the country illegally for multiple reasons.


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    #193
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.

    Your*


  • Options
    #194
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.

    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.

    Gassing Jews and murdering 6 million people on an industrial scale is a crime against humanity, the largest crime arguably in human history, next to Stalin and Mao's crimes. This is not a crime against humanity. How you can even compare them, well the mind just boggles.


  • Options
    #195
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,111 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    Not even a tiny bit of sympathy for anyone that this happens to now. It is worldwide news, anyone arriving with their kids deserves exactly what they will get.

    Maybe they will start rounding up people already living there illegally next and locking their kids up too. There are millions of irish people among those numbers. Suppose they will deserve it too will they?

    I live in the US legally. I understand that they can't just let everyone into the country that wants in, and they shouldn't. There is no need for this though. These kids are going to massively traumatised and authorities have already admitted to "losing track" of some of them. I dread to think what is actually happening to those poor kids. It's an ideal situation for child traffickers.


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    #196
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    Memnoch wrote: »
    Cruel and inhuman treatment is neither lawful nor justifiable anywhere. This is like saying if someone is caught stealing then their hands should be cut off. Oh, wait, that's what they do in Saudi Arabia. There are some basic principles that form the pillars of western democracy, such as proportional enforcement of the law. Inflicting punishment on innocent people (in this case children) is against every convention and understanding of human rights. Those response are those who make the CHOICE to inflict this punishment.
    Firstly, if people are arriving or entering the border seeking asylum, the US has a duty under treaties and international law to assess these claims fairly before making a decision. Not to arbitrary arrest the adults and separate the children.
    If they are not seeking asylum and are simply illegally crossing the border, this still does not justify inflicting horrific trauma on the children. They can just as easily house the families together in these centers till they are either deported back or if they need to be assessed as refugees then they can enter the appropriate pathway for that.
    It is deeply disheartening to see just how brazenly people like you are willing to justify this kind of cruel, inhumane and utterly unnecessary treatment of children. 
    It is reprehensible in every way and shame on those who support and defend it.

    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.
    Please re-read my post. If there is a law which requires inflicting abuse and trauma on children this is not a law that should be tolerated, defended or upheld.
    There are countless ways to deal with people breaking the law that do not involve abusing children.


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    #197
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,486 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Not one comment from a mod and post getting deleted.


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    #198
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Rory28 wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Ok we can all agree what happing is not right and is very drastic
    Here a serious question if people are now aware this will happen if you are caught will you have sympathy for them if they are caught breaking the law in full knowledge of what will happen to them and there children ?

    No matter what happens from here on out the American Government is putting kids into interment camps. It really doesn't matter what others do. The west should be better than this.
    It's wrong but if you know its happing ,Why risk it ?
    Some people have mentioned America is next by any war-torn countries , 90% or more of these people are not refugees, They just want to live in America for a better life, there's nothing wrong with that , but why risk it,
    Its kind of mad because the one side of me thinks we are all from Planet earth we should be aloud live where we like on it but we all know its just not practical , Its almost got no solution that suits everyone ,


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    #199
    Banterbus28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Banterbus28


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.

    Your*

    Nope it's, you're, you gremlin.

    You're = you are.

    You are dumb


  • Options
    #200
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Taytoland wrote: »
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.

    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.

    Gassing Jews and murdering 6 million people on an industrial scale is a crime against humanity, the largest crime arguably in human history, next to Stalin and Mao's crimes. This is not a crime against humanity. How you can even compare them, well the mind just boggles.
    Punishment of innocent children is a crime against humanity under any understanding of human rights and jurisprudence.


  • Options
    #201
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    It's wrong but if you know its happing ,Why risk it ?
    Some people have mentioned America is next by any war-torn countries , 90% or more of these people are not refugees, They just want to live in America for a better life, there's nothing wrong with that , but why risk it,
    Its kind of mad because the one side of me thinks we are all from Planet earth we should be aloud live where we like on it but we all know its just not practical , Its almost got no solution that suits everyone ,

    I would imagine the cartels are why they are risking it. Mexico is a stupidly dangerous and corrupt country.


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    #202
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Banterbus28 wrote: »
    You can then make a request for asylum in any country that has a consulate in the US.

    Let them stay outside the door of the consulate until it's processed.


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    #203
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    Banterbus28 wrote: »
    Nope it's, you're, you gremlin.

    You're = you are.

    You are dumb

    So you think the correct way to word that sentence is

    "You are dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father."

    Try again.


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    #204
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    The laws are there, they are layed out and still people will arrive with their kids in tow expecting them not to be enforced.

    It used to be legal to gas jews.
    Laws are not set in stone and they can and will be changed. You're dumb acceptance of authority is not a healthy attitude Mr Amazing Father.

    Gassing Jews and murdering 6 million people on an industrial scale is a crime against humanity, the largest crime arguably in human history, next to Stalin and Mao's crimes. This is not a crime against humanity. How you can even compare them, well the mind just boggles.
    Punishment of innocent children is a crime against humanity under any understanding of human rights and jurisprudence.
    No it's not. Parents punish children all the time in multiple ways which don't involve physical violence on them. Why must people always bring up the Nazi's as if it is somehow going to add credence to what they say? It just makes them  look ridiculous.


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    #205
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Please re-read my post. If there is a law which requires inflicting abuse and trauma on children this is not a law that should be tolerated, defended or upheld.
    There are countless ways to deal with people breaking the law that do not involve abusing children.

    I agree with you however the law is in place, the parents involved took this risk knowing the outcome. They are to blame here, did they think that it wouldn't happen?


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    #206
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Rory28 wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    It's wrong but if you know its happing ,Why risk it ?
    Some people have mentioned America is next by any war-torn countries , 90% or more of these people are not refugees, They just want to live in America for a better life, there's nothing wrong with that , but why risk it,
    Its kind of mad because the one side of me thinks we are all from Planet earth we should be aloud live where we like on it but we all know its just not practical , Its almost got no solution that suits everyone ,

    I would imagine the cartels are why they are risking it. Mexico is a stupidly dangerous and corrupt country.
    Very possible but a lot aren't Mexican and have travelled through a number of countries to the US,
    I guess the American dream is alive and well .,


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    #207
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Taytoland wrote: »
    No it's not. Parents punish children all the time in multiple ways which don't involve physical violence on them.

    Yes absolutely correct.

    And if the parents do that in a way that inflicts psychological trauma on the children then those parents are guilty of child abuse. People can and do end up in prison over that and rightly so wouldn't you agree?


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    #208
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Very possible but a lot aren't Mexican and have travelled through a number of countries to the US,
    I guess the American dream is alive and well .,

    And that is exactly it. These people are going to the states for a job and money, not to escape war torn countries.


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    #209
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Rory28 wrote: »
    I would imagine the cartels are why they are risking it. Mexico is a stupidly dangerous and corrupt country.

    Mexico is the 85th most dangerous country in the world, less dangerous than, for instance, Nigeria (186M), South Africa (56M), Egypt (96M) and Ethiopia (102M). You see the problem, I take it?


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    #210
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Taytoland wrote: »
    No it's not. Parents punish children all the time in multiple ways which don't involve physical violence on them. Why must people always bring up the Nazi's as if it is somehow going to add credence to what they say? It just makes them look ridiculous.


    Because many people actually know how the nazis came to power and can see many parallels in the US.


    And the only person looking ridiculous is the one claiming that interning children away from their parents in terrible conditions cannot be considered a breach of human rights.


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    #211
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    wexie wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    No it's not. Parents punish children all the time in multiple ways which don't involve physical violence on them.


    Yes absolutely correct.

    And if the parents do that in a way that inflicts psychological trauma on the children then those parents are guilty of child abuse. People can and do end up in prison over that and rightly so wouldn't you agree?

    The parents put them in that position by breaking the law. It is the parents fault. The border agencies are just following the law and if they didn't they would be fired. They have to work to put food on the table, they can't just turn a blind eye to the obvious.


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