issues at malahide with DARTs

Pawwed Rig

prinzeugen wrote: »

I was stuck on a train in the UK that had caught fire for 2 hours years ago. It was a bit smokey and there was no announcements as all the power had been cut, but people sat tight and didn't complain or try to jump off.

Just like many of those poor souls in Grenfell did.

In the case of a fire get to the open air. That is the safest place for you. Sitting on a locked train in this situation is beyond idiotic no matter how it actually turned out.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

As far as I'm aware Rail Users Ireland is a Rail Users Organisation and the people who are involved in it are publicly named on their website using their real names rather than using an alias on Boards.ie so I wouldn't necessarily agree that it was the same since honestly.



When an incident like this happens, Irish Rail should be providing the information to the people on the train. They should not have to go on Twitter to find out. The simple fact is there have been several reports of lack of communication and however much you try to deflect that in a way that a certain PR spokesman does, there is no getting away from it.

OK, i get it that you are involved with that other anti rail site.

On a train packed with drunken rowdy passengers who wasn't listening to announcements made to stand clear of the doors in the first place, what other means of communication would you have used?

prinzeugen

Trasna1 wrote: »

If you're going to be stuck on a commuter train where the delay could be an hour plus, within spitting distance of a station, then of course the passengers should be detrained.

There is more to detraining than just opening the doors. Its not that simple.



You have live wires, trip hazards (especially in the dark), persons that may not be able to get off the train, risk of getting hit by a passing train etc.



The list of reasons why people should stay on the train is longer than why they should get off one and walk down the track.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Idiots and drink don't mix, make them get the bus next time.

Ah, so the other usual deflection tactic that I commonly see, if you can't find someone else to blame for a problem, try and make the problem that of someone else in future so it's no longer a worry of yours.

Anything to avoid actually dealing with taking actions to help prevent the same things happen in the future I guess. My recent time in a new job with ex and current public sector workers has taught me that mentality is pretty common.

If we took that attitude towards safety in aviation for instance, we'd have a lot more fatal accidents because if you keep blaming the people who make bad decisions rather than analysing why they made those bad decisions, the bad decisions will keep happening.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

OK, i get it that you are involved with that other anti rail site.

On a train packed with drunken rowdy passengers who wasn't listening to announcements made to stand clear of the doors in the first place, what other means of communication would you have used?

I have no involvement with Rail Users Ireland whatsoever.

I've seen nothing to suggest announcements were made. You've appeared to speculate that you think they may have been made, but I'm seeing very little to back that up, whilst there are many people who have come out with accounts that suggest there was no communication, including a Rail Users Group who are happy to put their real names to their statements.

prinzeugen wrote: »

The list of reasons why people should stay on the train is longer than why they should get off one and walk down the track.

In most cases yes, but not all and you have to remember when a human brain is in a state of panic or becomes worried or confused then it does not think as rationally or calmly as someone like you or me who is typing a message on a keyboard in reply to this thread. Human beings are not robots.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Well you'd say, but there are accounts from a Rail Users organisation suggesting otherwise and numerous other reports of a lack of other communication and pretty much nothing to back up any point of view to the contrary.

Come on, both of us know that maybe people were drunk and didn't act the best way, but you know that Irish Rail are hopeless at handling communication, it's nothing new to anyone who commutes with them regularly. The 5 day a week commuter knows how it is!

You are using that rail users thing as if they are part of the NTA or had a roving reporter live on the scene monitoring events as they unfold
They were getting info off twitter and you are going by your feelings towards IR.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Ah, so the other usual deflection tactic that I commonly see, if you can't find someone else to blame for a problem, try and make the problem that of someone else in future so it's no longer a worry of yours.

Anything to avoid actually dealing with taking actions to help prevent the same things happen in the future I guess. My recent time in a new job with ex and current public sector workers has taught me that mentality is pretty common.

If we took that attitude towards safety in aviation for instance, we'd have a lot more fatal accidents because if you keep blaming the people who make bad decisions rather than analysing why they made those bad decisions, the bad decisions will keep happening.

Still not accepting that idiots caused the delays i see.

prinzeugen

devnull wrote: »

You sat on a train for two hours that caught fire and people just sat tight like nothing had happened? I'm sorry but I don't believe that, because in situations like that people will panic, I've seen it first hand because that is simply human nature. Reassurance is important and can help to calm people down.

As I've said before, I've been on trains when people have been in somewhat of a panic, and being kept informed has calmed them down somewhat. The only time I have seen people do things which are less than desirable has been when communication is bad.

12th July 1992. We had just passed through Berwick Upon Tweed when the driver hit the anchors and we stopped at Spital just south of Berwick. Coach A (the last coach) was filling with smoke. People started to move into coach B as the power was killed.


Guard came and tried to use an extinguisher, didn't work so he closed and locked the doors between the coaches. All the while trains were passing on the other line.

We watched as the fire brigade scrambled up and down a steep embankment to get to the coach. About 2 hours later we were moving again and the train was taken out of service when we reached Newcastle.

We had a fire in the Aviva Stadium a few years back during a football match. Lots of smoke but people did not panic or run from the building so its not true that that is what people will always do.

Most people usually start to panic at the last minute when they are in real danger.

EDIT - Just to add the cause of the fire/smoke on the train was a binding brake and the smoke had got sucked into the coach via the A/C system.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

I have no involvement with Rail Users Ireland whatsoever.

I've seen nothing to suggest announcements were made. You've appeared to speculate that you think they may have been made, but I'm seeing very little to back that up, whilst there are many people who have come out with accounts that suggest there was no communication, including a Rail Users Group who are happy to put their real names to their statements.



In most cases yes, but not all and you have to remember when a human brain is in a state of panic or becomes worried or confused then it does not think as rationally or calmly as someone like you or me who is typing a message on a keyboard in reply to this thread. Human beings are not robots.

The fact that the twitter feed was in overdrive would knock the suggestion of no communication out the window.

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

We had a fire in the Aviva Stadium a few years back during a football match. Lots of smoke but people did not panic or run from the building so its not true that that is what people will always do.

Most people usually start to panic at the last minute when they are in real danger.

Was it caused by ultras with flares. Fans involved with pyro displays at football matches are hardly going to panic due something they did on purpose.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The fact that the twitter feed was in overdrive would knock the suggestion of no communication out the window.

When an incident like this happens, Irish Rail should be providing the information to the people on the train. They should not have to go on Twitter to find out for themselves.

Saying that when an incident happens that people should have to go searching for the information rather than providing it to them is essentially stating that the passengers should look after themselves because Irish Rail aren't going to try to.

All this from a so called public service as well that just leaves the public to fend for itself. They exist to serve the public but don't want to make any effort to do so and instead expect the public to do it themselves.

Personally I just care about people and giving them the best service, communication and experience possible. I don't see them as an inconvenience. I guess I just have higher standards than many others.

prinzeugen

Stephen15 wrote: »

Was it caused by ultras with flares. Fans involved with pyro displays at football matches are hardly going to panic due something they did on purpose.

No it was caused by a unknown member of the bar/catering/cleaning staff having a fly smoke in one of the many bin stores and dumping the still lit cigarette in one of the bins.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

When an incident like this happens, Irish Rail should be providing the information to the people on the train. They should not have to go on Twitter to find out for themselves.

Saying that when an incident happens that people should have to go searching for the information rather than providing it to them is essentially stating that the passengers should look after themselves because Irish Rail aren't going to try to.

All this from a so called public service as well that just leaves the public to fend for itself. They exist to serve the public but don't want to make any effort to do so and instead expect the public to do it themselves.

Personally I just care about people and giving them the best service, communication and experience possible. I don't see them as an inconvenience. I guess I just have higher standards than many others.

You still have failed to provide a solution to giving passengers information when the driver is out of the cab. If he made the announcement before he left the cab are you happy then or did you expect him to pop back and forth with updates until he's finished checking the train?

Infini

In all honestly unless there's a serious threat to one's life noone should be leaving the train end of story. I honestly couldn't care what excuses people make or try to say about this the only time breaking window's or opening door's should be happening is only if there's a risk to life. Communication aside certain people breaking a window and just walking onto an ACTIVE RAIL LINE IN THE BLACK OF NIGHT because they simply cannot wait is stupidity of the highest order. No matter what anyone says your putting yourself in serious danger doing this and especially under those condition's as if a train was going the other way and didn't have word of what was happening people would be getting dismembered for crying out loud!

hatrickpatrick

prinzeugen wrote: »

So you think people should detrain every time there is a delay?

Yes. Irish Rail's policy with regard to delays should be, as a first priority, to give onboard passengers the choice to get off the line and walk to their destination or seek an alternate mode of transportation. Stopping a train full of passengers for an extended period of time and effectively falsely imprisonong them onboard is complete bullsh!t - if a train is going to be delayed, they should find a way to facilitate people getting off at a matter of urgency. Some people have deadlines to make, other modes of public transport to catch, etc which make being trapped on a train for an extended period of time totally unacceptable, particularly in the middle of the night.

Once again, the issue is Irish rail not treating their customers as the most important element in any "situation". As a public service, this is what they should do without exception. Train is delayed, fine - it happens. Passengers get a choice to remain onboard and wait, or get off and make their own way to wherever they were going. There are multiple ways in which this could easily be facilitated, from pulling up another train to transfer people to as is done on Dublin Bus, to temporarily closing that stretch of track so as people can safely walk to the nearest station platform.

It's Dublin City FFS, it's not as if there's ever more than a ten minute walk between dart stations anyway. Whole situation could be resolved within 20 minutes in terms of getting passengers off a broken down train and to the nearest platform if they actually have a bollocks about not screwing up peoples' plan for the rest of their day.

hatrickpatrick

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You still have failed to provide a solution to giving passengers information when the driver is out of the cab. If he made the announcement before he left the cab are you happy then or did you expect him to pop back and forth with updates until he's finished checking the train?

Give the drivers walkie talkies or even apps that let them communicate with the passengers remotely through the PA. Maybe let HQ do the same. We're in the 21st century, wireless communication while away from one's desk is kinda a thing these days :pac:

Rashers72

Would be great to get the actual timeline (or approx.) on events on Friday night. They seem to start with issues at Malahide station with complete and semi planned overloading (according to customers on it). I have experienced this first hand where the first train after the concert is delayed for long periods as opposed to sending it away at 75% capacity. Maybe it's DART driver shortages?
More ironically why IE did not use the empty one to two 8 carriage commuter trains to run an express train into Connolly (maybe stopping at Howth Junction) to relieve pressure. Ironically they could then have picked up all the Taylor Swift customers looking to head North back towards the depot in Drogheda. A complete win win.
On another note the NTA should really step in to represent the customers. Don't know who genuinely represents IE customers these days....

Del.Monte

CIE/Irish Rail believe that passengers and freight feck up the smooth operation of the railways and do their best to discourage both. Their communications suck and while passengers de-training on to a live railway line is dangerous, it is understandable if information is not forthcoming. If the train was full of drunk people coming from a concert (?) this should have been anticipated and additional IE staff and security should have been present on the train.

I had a 40 minute delay in Bray a few weeks back - at the platform - while trespassers were removed from the line between Bray and Greystones - do you think that there were any on board announcements, station announcements or station staff telling passengers anything.....what a ****ing joke of a railway company.

plodder

I was in Malahide yesterday evening (not at the concert) but it looked quite well organised outside the DART station with plenty of Gardai and stewards moving the crowd safely into the venue. I wonder did Irish Rail have extra staff on duty in Malahide station and city centre. They certainly should have, and security on the trains to manage any situations before people start abandoning the train. Communication is essential.

Hilly Bill

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Give the drivers walkie talkies or even apps that let them communicate with the passengers remotely through the PA. Maybe let HQ do the same. We're in the 21st century, wireless communication while away from one's desk is kinda a thing these days :pac:

It's a dart not a city tour bus.

goingnowhere

HQ had the ability to make PA's to any train but took it out...

ED E

goingnowhere wrote: »

HQ had the ability to make PA's to any train but took it out...

Christ

Hilly Bill

goingnowhere wrote: »

HQ had the ability to make PA's to any train but took it out...

HQ? 😀

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Irish Rail are abysmal with their communication though.

Every single time one of these situations happen that always comes through loud and clear and it's far easier to blame other people for their actions than try and prevent them happening in the first place.

I've been on trains that are stranded in many places over the last 10 years and it's no co-incidence that the ones I've been on that have been calm have been those with communication and the ones where people turn around and start doing things such as apparently happened last night, are where there has been no communication.

Pointing the finger at the passengers and saying it is all their fault and viewing communication with passengers during an incident is optional is laughable but says what we already know - passengers are an inconvenience to Irish Rail that they must tolerate but would rather they didn't have to.

while i'm in full agreement with you in relation to irish rail's communication issues, those people who got out and walked the tracks are fully responsible for doing that. communication may have prevented it but cop on to not walk on a live railway would have also prevented it.
people who detrain and walk the tracks when not authorised by irish rail staff should be prosecuted. unless there is a serious fire and escaping to another carrige is not possible, or there is god forbid a rail crash, you have no business detraining and walking the tracks unless authorised.

yesto24 wrote: »

I disagree.
Having been the victim of a lack of communication from Irish rail I think the more people do this and the more disruption they cause they because of the this the better. It should make Irish rail up their game with regards to communication.
Long may this"disruption" continue.

and it will hopefully make them bring prosecutions against those people for breaking the railway bi-laws.

end of the road

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Yes. Irish Rail's policy with regard to delays should be, as a first priority, to give onboard passengers the choice to get off the line and walk to their destination or seek an alternate mode of transportation.

that would delay other trains. why should others be delaid because people think that they are entitled to walk on the railway? sure, alert people of the bus alternatives once the train is able to get to the next station, but the best and safest place for everyone is on the train.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Stopping a train full of passengers for an extended period of time and effectively falsely imprisonong them onboard is complete bullsh!t

nobody is being falsely imprisoned. trains stop for a period of time for many varied reasons. sometimes it cannot be helped. the reason people are kept on the train is because it is the safest place to be unless there is an extreme emergency.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

if a train is going to be delayed, they should find a way to facilitate people getting off at a matter of urgency.

if there is a serious risk to life, or another incident that would require it,, then it is a matter of course that it would have to be done and should be. but simply for being delaid when there is a chance of the train moving, then no, as it would require other trains being delaid.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Some people have deadlines to make, other modes of public transport to catch, etc which make being trapped on a train for an extended period of time totally unacceptable, particularly in the middle of the night.

sorry but having deadlines to make is just tough. if people have to catch another mode of transport and they miss that mode of transport then irish rail should pay for a taxi for them as a matter of course and curtisy. but to detrain people just because they have deadlines to make is complete nonsense.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Once again, the issue is Irish rail not treating their customers as the most important element in any "situation". As a public service, this is what they should do without exception. Train is delayed, fine - it happens. Passengers get a choice to remain onboard and wait, or get off and make their own way to wherever they were going. There are multiple ways in which this could easily be facilitated, from pulling up another train to transfer people to as is done on Dublin Bus, to temporarily closing that stretch of track so as people can safely walk to the nearest station platform.

they don't have the trains to be able to rock one up to another to transfer passengers. they have to do it at a station where there is another service calling which will take the passengers on. other people have places to be also, delaying them in a non-emergency situation so that people can be walked along the railway track is a ridiculous idea. the delay has to be contained as much as is possible.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's Dublin City FFS, it's not as if there's ever more than a ten minute walk between dart stations anyway. Whole situation could be resolved within 20 minutes in terms of getting passengers off a broken down train and to the nearest platform if they actually have a bollocks about not screwing up peoples' plan for the rest of their day.

detraining is for serious and other necessary situations. it is not used, nor are the resources there to use it, because people have plans. if the whole situation could be resolved in 20 minutes, it would be. it can't.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

Communication may have prevented it but cop on to not walk on a live railway would have also prevented it. People who detrain and walk the tracks when not authorised by irish rail staff should be prosecuted. unless there is a serious fire and escaping to another carrige is not possible, or there is god forbid a rail crash, you have no business detraining and walking the tracks unless authorised.

And if this kind of approach to safety culture was taken in the aviation world and other sectors then there would be a lot more deaths from aviation accidents in the last few years because we'd be blaming pilots for doing stupid things that would keep being repeated rather than actually trying to prevent them from doing it in the first place.

It reminds me of Donald Trump talking about guns, saying that people were to blame for all the mass shootings and without the people they wouldn't have happened whilst doing absolutely nothing to prevent the situation from happening again. It's complete deflection at it's best and the same things will keep happening unless you try and do something to prevent them.

The crime of Irish Rail is not that the people got off the train by their own free will, it is the fact that there were a group of human beings on that train who Irish Rail simply didn't even bother to try and reassure. For a so called public service company, that shows a complete lack of due care, which unfortunately comes as no surprise to the average Irish Rail commuter I guess.

and it will hopefully make them bring prosecutions against those people for breaking the railway bi-laws.

When Irish Rail has it's own house in order, then it should start going around and blaming other people. What you are essentially promoting is a blame culture and if there is a blame culture in something that involves public safety there is little wonder that there have been serious questions asked about the safety culture in Irish Rail.

Heaven forbid a public service might care about the public that it is supposed to serve. Heaven forbid that someone with anxiety might be on the train and panic, heaven forbid that humans are not robots who have emotions and feelings and some people are claustrophobic and nervous travellers. I guess that is just their problem and who cares about them, really? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

If all the communications issues are correct, the driver and the CTC manager should be disciplined and forced to explains there actions. While there was no need for passengers to walk the line, there was a real risk of catastrophic consequences and only timing prevented it.

Somebody will have a lot of explaining to the RSC this week.

JayRoc

The rights and wrongs of detraining have been discussed ad nauseum here, no point in rehashing it all.

But if anyone in IR who says they didn't envisage a situation where passengers who say they had received no communication for almost an hour (or more?) and were within visual distance of a station would not say **** This and eventually just decide to walk the few metres...is a moron.

And if they could see it was going to happen, then they have a responsibility to avoid it by ensuring passengers were adequately communicated with.

This is not rocket science lads. Look at the IR twitter feed. The vast majority of complaints are people saying that they understand things (signal faults/breakdowns etc) happen, they just want an announcement over the PA they can hear to keep them in the loop.


And as for "My train was on fire but no one heard The Man say we could get off, so we stayed put” 🀔

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

And if this kind of approach to safety culture was taken in the aviation world and other sectors then there would be a lot more deaths from aviation accidents in the last few years because we'd be blaming pilots for doing stupid things that would keep being repeated rather than actually trying to prevent them from doing it in the first place.

It reminds me of Donald Trump talking about guns, saying that people were to blame for all the mass shootings and without the people they wouldn't have happened whilst doing absolutely nothing to prevent the situation from happening again. It's complete deflection at it's best and the same things will keep happening unless you try and do something to prevent them.

The crime of Irish Rail is not that the people got off the train by their own free will, it is the fact that there were a group of human beings on that train who Irish Rail simply didn't even bother to try and reassure. For a so called public service company, that shows a complete lack of due care, which unfortunately comes as no surprise to the average Irish Rail commuter I guess.



When Irish Rail has it's own house in order, then it should start going around and blaming other people. What you are essentially promoting is a blame culture and if there is a blame culture in something that involves public safety there is little wonder that there have been serious questions asked about the safety culture in Irish Rail.

Heaven forbid a public service might care about the public that it is supposed to serve. Heaven forbid that someone with anxiety might be on the train and panic, heaven forbid that humans are not robots who have emotions and feelings and some people are claustrophobic and nervous travellers. I guess that is just their problem and who cares about them, really?

i believe it is possible to investigate situations like this and try to prevent them from happening again, all while holding those who detrain themselves without authorisation to account. it doesn't have to be one or the other IMO.

Rashers72

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If all the communications issues are correct, the driver and the CTC manager should be disciplined and forced to explains there actions.....
Somebody will have a lot of explaining to the RSC this week.

Never going to happen. There is zero accountability in IE. The auld IE PR machine will just blame their customers, and the media as always will just lap it up. Any decent radio programme researcher could quickly figure out there are serious communications issues with IE, but I think most r too lazy to research. Very frustrating listening to such shows.
Great to hear the NBRU calling for a dedicated transport police. First positive thing I have heard from them in years. Wonder what the IE position is on a transport police?