issues at malahide with DARTs

devnull

Rashers72 wrote: »

Never going to happen. There is zero accountability in IE. The auld IE PR machine will just blame their customers, and the media as always will just lap it up. Any decent radio programme researcher could quickly figure out there are serious communications issues with IE, but I think most r too lazy to research. Very frustrating listening to such shows.
Great to hear the NBRU calling for a dedicated transport police. First positive thing I have heard from them in years. Wonder what the IE position is on a transport police?

A cynic would suggest that they've picked today of all days to release it as it's somewhat of a distraction and a smokescreen to take the focus off their members and the Irish Rail failings of a few days ago. and instead place the focus on the passengers once more.

A transport police is welcome and needed, but ultimately the staff need to get their own house in order too.

hatrickpatrick

end of the road wrote: »

that would delay other trains. why should others be delaid because people think that they are entitled to walk on the railway? sure, alert people of the bus alternatives once the train is able to get to the next station, but the best and safest place for everyone is on the train.

It's better for other trains to be delayed somewhere people can choose to disembark than for anyone to be held on board a train without room to move or access to toilet facilities for upwards of 40 minutes. That is completely and totally unacceptable, and should be the absolute #1 priority in terms of which situation is most important to deal with. Someone on The Journal's comments section who claims to have been there said that the first door was pried open by a man whose son was in hysterics because he needed to pee - are you seriously suggesting that asking people to hold it for 40 minutes when their planned journey was far shorter than that is acceptable?

nobody is being falsely imprisoned. trains stop for a period of time for many varied reasons. sometimes it cannot be helped. the reason people are kept on the train is because it is the safest place to be unless there is an extreme emergency.

Trains stop for a period of time, sure - I've experienced this myself as a regular DART customer. What I haven't experienced, and what seems to be a relatively new thing, is a train stopping for an extended period of time in between stations and with the doors closed. That's a crucial difference. The last time I was on a train which faced a major delay was maybe two years ago, but in that case they reversed it back to the previous station (we were almost at Grand Canal and they went back to Lansdowne) to let people get off. I believe the issue was that a signal or points system had failed at the bit near Grand Canal where they're down to only one track.

I have never been trapped on board a crowded, toilet-less and overheated train for 40 minutes with no word as to what was going on, but I'll say without the slightest hesitation that I'd have been among the first to help out in getting the doors open so people could get the hell off.

if there is a serious risk to life, or another incident that would require it,, then it is a matter of course that it would have to be done and should be. but simply for being delaid when there is a chance of the train moving, then no, as it would require other trains being delaid.

As I said before, I'd agree with this if the stopped train was at a station with the doors open. If it's stopped in between stations, then the first priority should be to get it to a place where the passengers can disembark, or else disembark them there and then in a supervised manner - delay to other services or not.

And before you ask, if I was on board a DART and was told that we'd be stuck at Blackrock or Booterstown for half an hour (with the option to get off and hop on a 7 bus instead) for the specific reason that another train full of passengers was being facilitated in not being trapped on board for an hour, I for one would be 100% completely and totally ok with that, and would in fact commend Irish Rail for putting their passengers first.

sorry but having deadlines to make is just tough. if people have to catch another mode of transport and they miss that mode of transport then irish rail should pay for a taxi for them as a matter of course and curtisy. but to detrain people just because they have deadlines to make is complete nonsense.

Irish Rail is never going to pay for peoples' taxis or other modes of transportation. If they offered this then I'd have somewhat more sympathy with the idea of people being stuck on board in this manner, but if you think people should be willing to fork out €40 for a taxi because Irish Rail's incompetence caused them to miss a €5 Nitelink, you're having the craic altogether.

they don't have the trains to be able to rock one up to another to transfer passengers. they have to do it at a station where there is another service calling which will take the passengers on. other people have places to be also, delaying them in a non-emergency situation so that people can be walked along the railway track is a ridiculous idea. the delay has to be contained as much as is possible.

It's not just about being delayed, it's about giving priority to the idea that people shouldn't be trapped for an extended period of time on an overcrowded train with no toilet facilities - these two issues combined (overcrowding / claustrophobia and a lack of somewhere for people to go to the toilet) are from all accounts specifically what pushed people over the edge the other night. Catching another mode of transportation would be my own irritation in a situation like this, but being on an overcrowded and facility-free train for an hour is totally unacceptable.

And to suggest they don't have any spare trains to take people off is a joke, you can see out of service trains parked regularly in most of the "depot" style stations with multiple branch lines for train storage. And if, as you say, it can't be done, then the Gardai or Irish Rail staff should supervise people in disembarking and walking to the nearest station. As I said previously, I haven't calculated this myself but with the exception of stations such as Greystones and possibly Booterstown, I can't think of two DART stations with more than a 10-15 minute walk from one to the other.

detraining is for serious and other necessary situations. it is not used, nor are the resources there to use it, because people have plans. if the whole situation could be resolved in 20 minutes, it would be. it can't.

Fundamentally disagree, but there's no point in either of us trying to change the others' minds, we're probably the two most stubborn feckers on this whole website

end of the road

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's better for other trains to be delayed somewhere people can choose to disembark than for anyone to be held on board a train without room to move or access to toilet facilities for upwards of 40 minutes. That is completely and totally unacceptable, and should be the absolute #1 priority in terms of which situation is most important to deal with. Someone on The Journal's comments section who claims to have been there said that the first door was pried open by a man whose son was in hysterics because he needed to pee - are you seriously suggesting that asking people to hold it for 40 minutes when their planned journey was far shorter than that is acceptable?

if the train is in a situation where it is forced to stop then it has to stop. unless there is an emergency then there aren't the resources to detrain people willy nilly.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Trains stop for a period of time, sure - I've experienced this myself as a regular DART customer. What I haven't experienced, and what seems to be a relatively new thing, is a train stopping for an extended period of time in between stations and with the doors closed. That's a crucial difference. The last time I was on a train which faced a major delay was maybe two years ago, but in that case they reversed it back to the previous station (we were almost at Grand Canal and they went back to Lansdowne) to let people get off. I believe the issue was that a signal or points system had failed at the bit near Grand Canal where they're down to only one track.

when possible trains will reverse. often however that isn't possible. the doors would be closed because the train can move at any time.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have never been trapped on board a crowded, toilet-less and overheated train for 40 minutes with no word as to what was going on,

i have been stuck in such a situation, and guess what? i didn't go walking on the railway because i know better of the possible consiquences.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I said before, I'd agree with this if the stopped train was at a station with the doors open. If it's stopped in between stations, then the first priority should be to get it to a place where the passengers can disembark, or else disembark them there and then in a supervised manner - delay to other services or not.

if they can get it back to the station they will. if there is a good reason to detrain, they will, but that takes time to organise.

end of the road

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

if you think people should be willing to fork out €40 for a taxi because Irish Rail's incompetence caused them to miss a €5 Nitelink, you're having the craic altogether.

i'm not having a laugh. detraining takes time to organise. there aren't the resources to do it willy nilly just because someone may miss their night-link. it's not going to happen for those situations.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not just about being delayed, it's about giving priority to the idea that people shouldn't be trapped for an extended period of time on an overcrowded train with no toilet facilities - these two issues combined (overcrowding / claustrophobia and a lack of somewhere for people to go to the toilet) are from all accounts specifically what pushed people over the edge the other night. Catching another mode of transportation would be my own irritation in a situation like this, but being on an overcrowded and facility-free train for an hour is totally unacceptable.

there was no other alternative. you are expecting things to be done that aren't done by any other operator around the world. no operator detrains people unless it is absolutely necessary.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And to suggest they don't have any spare trains to take people off is a joke, you can see out of service trains parked regularly in most of the "depot" style stations with multiple branch lines for train storage.

those trains have other services to run. containing the delay as much as is possible is the priority. delaying others and extending the delays possibly throughout the day isn't an option. also irish rail is cronically short of rolling stock.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And if, as you say, it can't be done, then the Gardai or Irish Rail staff should supervise people in disembarking and walking to the nearest station.

when required, that is exactly what will happen.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

And if this kind of approach to safety culture was taken in the aviation world and other sectors then there would be a lot more deaths from aviation accidents in the last few years because we'd be blaming pilots for doing stupid things that would keep being repeated rather than actually trying to prevent them from doing it in the first place.

It reminds me of Donald Trump talking about guns, saying that people were to blame for all the mass shootings and without the people they wouldn't have happened whilst doing absolutely nothing to prevent the situation from happening again. It's complete deflection at it's best and the same things will keep happening unless you try and do something to prevent them.

The crime of Irish Rail is not that the people got off the train by their own free will, it is the fact that there were a group of human beings on that train who Irish Rail simply didn't even bother to try and reassure. For a so called public service company, that shows a complete lack of due care, which unfortunately comes as no surprise to the average Irish Rail commuter I guess.



When Irish Rail has it's own house in order, then it should start going around and blaming other people. What you are essentially promoting is a blame culture and if there is a blame culture in something that involves public safety there is little wonder that there have been serious questions asked about the safety culture in Irish Rail.

Heaven forbid a public service might care about the public that it is supposed to serve. Heaven forbid that someone with anxiety might be on the train and panic, heaven forbid that humans are not robots who have emotions and feelings and some people are claustrophobic and nervous travellers. I guess that is just their problem and who cares about them, really? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

When someone opens an airplane door at 30 thousand feet in the air then of course there would be be deaths and no doubt you would blame the pilot and the airline and not the lunatic who opened the door.
I see that you still don't have an issue with those that refused to follow instructions which led to the disruptions for everyone else.

Zebra3

It’s quite possible that some passengers weren’t drunk, but had been drinking during the evening and needed to take a leak.

With no information, they got off the train to do so as opposed to relieving themselves on the train and then decided they’d be better off not getting back on.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

A cynic would suggest that they've picked today of all days to release it as it's somewhat of a distraction and a smokescreen to take the focus off their members and the Irish Rail failings of a few days ago. and instead place the focus on the passengers once more.

A transport police is welcome and needed, but ultimately the staff need to get their own house in order too.

Nobody in Irish Rail forced a train to stop, nobody in Irish Rail made idiots walk down a live rail line. You don't have an issue with the idiots that caused the delay, why?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

When someone opens an airplane door at 30 thousand feet in the air then of course there would be be deaths and no doubt you would blame the pilot and the airline and not the lunatic who opened the door.

Fortunately you will find that what you describe has been thought about by those who design aeroplanes to the point where it is not possible to open a door at 30,000 feet so the situation that you described will never happen as there has been safeguards put in place to prevent it. The aviation sector generally focuses on stopping problems right at the start of the chain rather than blaming someone at the end of it.

A good safety culture is where everyone does their utmost to run factors inside their control as safely as possible and prevent factors outside of their control from impacting safety as much as possible. A bad safety culture is one where we just blame others for what they do without trying to either stop them from doing so or reducing the likeliness of them doing so.

Less than a year ago there were concerns raised about the safety culture in Irtish Rail, that's not just my opinion, that was the official view of the body that is responsible for railway safety in the country.

I see that you still don't have an issue with those that refused to follow instructions which led to the disruptions for everyone else.

For someone to refuse to follow instructions, they'd have to have them in the first place and all of the accounts that I have seen suggest that there were not instructions and people were left to their own devices because Irish Rail don't care about people.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nobody in Irish Rail forced a train to stop, nobody in Irish Rail made idiots walk down a live rail line. You don't have an issue with the idiots that caused the delay, why?

Irish Rail didn't do anything, because they don't care about people, they just leave them their to their own devices despite supposedly being a company who i set up to serve the public.

Maybe people wouldn't have walked down a live rail line if they had some proper communication from Irish Rail, but as usual there was sweet FA from those who could have calmed the situation down.

Perhaps there were people that were drunk on the train and acted in a less than great way, but it's not like people on a late night train being drunk when there were a few concerts on came as a big surprise is it?

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Fortunately you will find that what you describe has been thought about by those who design aeroplanes to the point where it is not possible to open a door at 30,000 feet so the situation that you described will never happen as there has been safeguards put in place to prevent it. The aviation sector generally focuses on stopping problems right at the start of the chain rather than blaming someone at the end of it.

A good safety culture is where everyone does their utmost to run factors inside their control as safely as possible and prevent factors outside of their control from impacting safety as much as possible. A bad safety culture is one where we just blame others for what they do without trying to either stop them from doing so or reducing the likeliness of them doing so.

Less than a year ago there were concerns raised about the safety culture in Irtish Rail, that's not just my opinion, that was the official view of the body that is responsible for railway safety in the country.



For someone to refuse to follow instructions, they'd have to have them in the first place and all of the accounts that I have seen suggest that there were not instructions and people were left to their own devices because Irish Rail don't care about people.

Like please stand clear of the doors? When they couldn't close them. Or did you want to be told not to jump on the tracks?

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like please stand clear of the doors? When they couldn't close them. Or did you want to be told not to jump on the tracks?

JayRoc

Are we being asked to believe that Irish Rail thought people would stay on a crowded train with no jacks for an indefinite period with no communication?

Regardless of anything else, that is the crux of the matter. A 4 year old could have told you that in that situation people are going to detrain.

So why didn't IR take steps to avoid what was clearly going to happen?


Or is that the passengers' fault as well?

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Irish Rail didn't do anything, because they don't care about people, they just leave them their to their own devices despite supposedly being a company who i set up to serve the public.

Maybe people wouldn't have walked down a live rail line if they had some proper communication from Irish Rail, but as usual there was sweet FA from those who could have calmed the situation down.

Perhaps there were people that were drunk on the train and acted in a less than great way, but it's not like people on a late night train being drunk when there were a few concerts on came as a big surprise is it?

Your hatred for Irish rail is clear to see and would rather blame them instead of the idiots who broke the doors on the train from drogheda. I

Hilly Bill

JayRoc wrote: »

Are we being asked to believe that Irish Rail thought people would stay on a crowded train with no jacks for an indefinite period with no communication?

Regardless of anything else, that is the crux of the matter. A 4 year old could have told you that in that situation people are going to detrain.

So why didn't IR take steps to avoid what was clearly going to happen?


Or is that the passengers' fault as well?

They detrained at the first opportunity. Idiots walking along the tracks didn't help matters.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Your hatred for Irish rail is clear to see and would rather blame them instead of the idiots who broke the doors on the train from drogheda. I

I'd be criticising any rail operator who did the same thing regardless of who they were at the end of the day where the staff clearly did not show any care towards the humans on that train who may have been suffering from anxiety, claustrophobia or numerous other things.

Blame culture is a description given to an organisation in which people are blamed for mistakes. This contrasts with those in which the problem leading to a something happening is identified and steps to prevent them are made.

The simple fact is that there were things that Irish Rail could have done to reduce the chances of people doing what they did which they did not do so therefore Irish Rail should focus on improving to reduce the chances of a similar event happening in the future.

I suppose you blame people for all the shootings in America as well rather than the fact there is no proper rigour in gun laws to stop people from getting into a situation where they can get access to a gun and shoot huge amounts of people.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

I'd be criticising any rail operator who did the same thing regardless of who they were at the end of the day.

Blame culture is a description given to an organisation in which people are blamed for mistakes. This contrasts with those in which the problem leading to a something happening is identified and steps to prevent them are made.

The simple fact is that there were things that Irish Rail could have done to reduce the chances of people doing what they did which they did not do so therefore Irish Rail should focus on improving to reduce the chances of a similar event happening in the future.

I suppose you blame people for all the shootings in America as well rather than the fact there is no proper rigour in gun laws to stop people from getting into a situation where they can get access to a gun and shoot huge amounts of people.

You wouldn't blame the shooter? 😀

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You wouldn't blame the shooter? 😀

Blaming people for everything doesn't stop the problem from happening over and over again, that's my point.

thomasj

https://twitter.com/aoifemarieor/status/1007788924595593216?s=09

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Blaming people for everything doesn't stop the problem from happening over and over again, that's my point.

It makes more sense to blame those responsible, in this case the goons who broke the doors on the drogheda to Dublin train and the goons who wrecked the dart behind it.
You don't seem to have an issue with the vandalism?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It makes more sense to blame those responsible, in this case the goons who broke the doors on the drogheda to Dublin train and the goons who wrecked the dart behind it.

So what you're saying is it's more important to find someone to blame for a problem that has happened than putting things in place to make sure that it doesn't happen or is less likely to happen again?

Christ, that really is blame culture. If the Aviation sector took that attitude towards safety it would have cost a lot of people their lives over the last number of years.

You don't seem to have an issue with the vandalism?

Irish Rail knew it was going to be a busy night with many events going on in the city, why did they not have extra security on to police the trains? They also have the power to refuse anyone entry to a train if they are intoxicated.

Of course there is an issue with the people on the Drogheda train and they did not act appropriately, but Irish Rail could have done more in relation to security and the way they handled what happened after the incident on the Drogheda train was less than satisfactory in my view.

Rashers72

What happened on the Drogheda bound train? I heard an ambulance was called to Donabate which in turn delayed the Belfast bound train. I guessed it was a genuine medical emergency.... and that was all..

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

So what you're saying is it's more important to find someone to blame for a problem that has happened than putting things in place to make sure that it doesn't happen or is less likely to happen again?

Christ, that really is blame culture. If the Aviation sector took that attitude towards safety it would have cost a lot of people their lives over the last number of years.

So are you blaming the trains because they have glass windows which someone can smash. Do you think new trains built shouldn't have glass windows.

JayRoc

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You wouldn't blame the shooter? 😀

So you are saying that whenever you hear of an American lunatic shooting up a school you think to yourself "sure what can you do. No way anyone could have predicted this entirely predictable event"?

The individual bears responsibility for their actions.

But authorities/powers that be (in this case Irish Rail) also bear responsibility for allowing the obvious to happen.

I truly don't understand how anyone could not grasp this. The actions of a group of people who were drunk/pissed off/tired/needing to go to the toilet/claustrophobic/etc who had received no communication or reassurance were easy to anticipate. A fool would have anticipated them.

So are Irish Rail fools? Or did they anticipate the actions of their customers but just not give a ****?

Either way. Totally unacceptable.

Hilly Bill

JayRoc wrote: »

So you are saying that whenever you hear of an American lunatic shooting up a school you think to yourself "sure what can you do. No way anyone could have predicted this entirely predictable event"?

The individual bears responsibility for their actions.

But authorities/powers that be (in this case Irish Rail) also bear responsibility for allowing the obvious to happen.

I truly don't understand how anyone could not grasp this. The actions of a group of people who were drunk/pissed off/tired/needing to go to the toilet/claustrophobic/etc who had received no communication or reassurance were easy to anticipate. A fool would have anticipated them.

So are Irish Rail fools? Or did they anticipate the actions of their customers but just not give a ****?

Either way. Totally unacceptable.

If they knew the pissed up fools were going to prevent doors from closing and in turn damaging them then they wouldn't have ran the service would they. nor would they have sent a packed dart out behind it.
Preventing a train and its passengers from continuing on its journey due to vandalism is unacceptable.
It's never an issue after a match in lansdowne, maybe they know how to behave themselves.

Stephen15

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's never an issue after a match in lansdowne, maybe they know how to behave themselves.

The good thing about football matches at the Aviva is that drink is not served inside the stadium due to UEFA requirements and people who are too pissed are refused entry. People who drink before hand have plenty of time to soak up the drink during the match.

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

The good thing about football matches at the Aviva is that drink is not served inside the stadium due to UEFA requirements and people who are too pissed are refused entry. People who drink before hand have plenty of time to soak up the drink during the match.

Rugby games allow drink in the stands, its a class thing to be honest.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Rugby games allow drink in the stands, its a class thing to be honest.

I was more speaking from experience from going to football matches in the Aviva I don't generally go to rugby matches but anytime I've gone to a football game at the Aviva I've never seen any issues on the DART afterwards. I have seen drunk and rowdy middle class people but I wouldn't say they'd go as far as to smash windows on a train or pull the emergency brake so I would agree that it's a class thing.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill

Has Barry Kenny given you a few quid for an extra few hours work?

Seriously IE have to take a degree of blame. Incidents like this have been bubbling under the surface for a number of years and IE have make some changes. They should start by procreate those who first entered the line but they will not. The non existent communication is what made the situation worse and while I personalty don't believe it would have prevented what happened.

Perhaps its time to define communication and actions it requires drivers to take as part of their terms of employment as its clearly the only way to get the message out. The new trainees have model examples to learn from!!!

The alleged 2900 door issues couldn't possible have lasted 1 hour, the procedures are not complicated. The guards not arriving is what caused the major delay. The train should have been detained sooner and moved away from the station sooner or even isolate the carriage if allowed on the CAF fleet.
Given there was heavily loaded trains in the same section. Commuter service must be handled differently to intercity services.

Those in charge on the night failed to manage the situation within areas of there control and yes questions should also be asked of guards of the delay in coming and the extra manpower and time required in the end to clear the lines when it should have been delt with sooner.

Zebra3

Stephen15 wrote: »

I was more speaking from experience from going to football matches in the Aviva I don't generally go to rugby matches but anytime I've gone to a football game at the Aviva I've never seen any issues on the DART afterwards. I have seen drunk and rowdy middle class people but I wouldn't say they'd go as far as to smash windows on a train or pull the emergency brake so I would agree that it's a class thing.

They keep their violence restricted to the streets.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/watch-gardai-called-to-street-brawl-in-south-dublin-after-schools-rugby-match-36544024.html

Working class heroes

Won’t comment on who is to blame as that has been done to death but one thing I will say.
Malahide Station should be closed for those concerts as it’s simply not safe. Seen it myself the previous weekend. It’s the layout, basically a stampede occurs when the gate at the road is opened. All this only serves to build up frustration.
The promoters should be made provide transport for the concert goers.

Ridiculous location for a concert.