Should Dublin Football be split?

DONTMATTER

I think the extent of the financial doping is far worse than many people realise. It is a professional system which creates, develops and produces players through a system which involves highly paid coaches, trainers and is overseen by highly paid directors. This money comes from all of us regular GAA members, they then have gained huge sponsorship money off the back of the success bought by our money which means they can have a senior set up involving the huge backroom team of various coaches, world champions, physiologists etc etc
I was on a different GAA forum a few years ago and all what is happening now was predicted then. The financial doping has made it impossible for Dublin to fail, they have a professional set up in an amateur game. I will go into the financial doping in more detail when I have time. I first will just update a comparison list I created on the GAA forum I used to frequent that shows just how much millions upon millions can buy. The first list is of what Dublin won between 1990 and 2008, the second list is what's been won since.

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016



That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

Stoner

DONTMATTER wrote:

That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

That's some first post !

odyssey06

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its such naive thinking really, and for a comparison I would tell people to look at soccer, both in the PL and in the CL.
There are huge imbalances between the super clubs and everybody else, but does anybody really think that Ajax or Standard Liege are going to be competing with Barcelona or Manchester United any time soon? You'll never hear anybody seriously claim that Everton or Aston Villa are going to overtake Man City any time soon.

Surely International soccer is a more relevant comparison?
Of the 32 teams at this year's World Cup, how many of them have a real chance of winning?

Gael85

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think the extent of the financial doping is far worse than many people realise. It is a professional system which creates, develops and produces players through a system which involves highly paid coaches, trainers and is overseen by highly paid directors. This money comes from all of us regular GAA members, they then have gained huge sponsorship money off the back of the success bought by our money which means they can have a senior set up involving the huge backroom team of various coaches, world champions, physiologists etc etc
I was on a different GAA forum a few years ago and all what is happening now was predicted then. The financial doping has made it impossible for Dublin to fail, they have a professional set up in an amateur game. I will go into the financial doping in more detail when I have time. I first will just update a comparison list I created on the GAA forum I used to frequent that shows just how much millions upon millions can buy. The first list is of what Dublin won between 1990 and 2008, the second list is what's been won since.

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016



That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

Hi Ewan

VonZan

I don't think Dublin should be split up but something needs to be done. There is talk already of RTE and Sky trying to drop football coverage due to the quality.

The provincial championships in football are slowly dying away. Unfortunately, for minnows to compete in the modern era they have to employ ultra defensive tactics because it's obvious the gulf in resources won't allow for 15 on 15.

People are going to lose interest if there isn't a format devised to provide more resources to smaller counties and even then kids aren't as interest in the football as they were when I was growing up.

largepants

This thread was started by a person from Dublin. Posters have offered opinions, in some cases backed up with figures, and they are still ridiculed.

Why start the thread if you simply don't want to hear the other side of the argument?

DONTMATTER

largepants wrote: »

This thread was started by a person from Dublin. Posters have offered opinions, in some cases backed up with figures, and they are still ridiculed.

Why start the thread if you simply don't want to hear the other side of the argument?

They've been sticking their fingers in their ears for years. They don't want to hear it. You can see why they don't want to. If they face facts then they'll have to admit that all their recent titles were won unfairly. That what they're watching is bought, not actually won through hard work.
I've heard all the excuses, I've heard all the deflecting, I've heard all the abuse that gets thrown at you when you bring this up. It's time we all realise that nothing will change if it's left up to Dublin and GAA hq. Money is what matters to them. It's time for all the other counties to stand up together. This isn't right.
This is destroying our games. We hear more and more talk about this B championship, that will kill off the game in those counties. Can you tell me how Joe McDonagh games have been shown on the Sunday Game? The Leinster championship is already dead. Crowds are disappearing, players are disappearing.
In hurling, the money Dublin got would have revived some counties. I said a few years ago that this would kill the GAA and it's getting closer every year. Let's stand together and stop the financial doping.

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

They've been sticking their fingers in their ears for years. They don't want to hear it. You can see why they don't want to. If they face facts then they'll have to admit that all their recent titles were won unfairly. That what they're watching is bought, not actually won through hard work.
I've heard all the excuses, I've heard all the deflecting, I've heard all the abuse that gets thrown at you when you bring this up. It's time we all realise that nothing will change if it's left up to Dublin and GAA hq. Money is what matters to them. It's time for all the other counties to stand up together. This isn't right.
This is destroying our games. We hear more and more talk about this B championship, that will kill off the game in those counties. Can you tell me how Joe McDonagh games have been shown on the Sunday Game? The Leinster championship is already dead. Crowds are disappearing, players are disappearing.
In hurling, the money Dublin got would have revived some counties. I said a few years ago that this would kill the GAA and it's getting closer every year. Let's stand together and stop the financial doping.

The reality is that if the splitting of Dublin is to ever become a reality, it breaks the county structure and the amalgamation of counties will be on the table at the same time.

The O'Rourke argument that lads in Dublin are being denied the opportunity to play and compete at senior level also extends to the better players in the smaller counties who are being denied the ability to play in a competitive team at senior level.

That precedent of the breaking of county structures is why smaller counties are equally opposed to the breaking up of Dublin.

All of the above applies no matter your view of the splitting of Dublin and is the realpolitik of the situation.

Dr. Bre

DONTMATTER wrote: »

They've been sticking their fingers in their ears for years. They don't want to hear it. You can see why they don't want to. If they face facts then they'll have to admit that all their recent titles were won unfairly. That what they're watching is bought, not actually won through hard work.
I've heard all the excuses, I've heard all the deflecting, I've heard all the abuse that gets thrown at you when you bring this up. It's time we all realise that nothing will change if it's left up to Dublin and GAA hq. Money is what matters to them. It's time for all the other counties to stand up together. This isn't right.
This is destroying our games. We hear more and more talk about this B championship, that will kill off the game in those counties. Can you tell me how Joe McDonagh games have been shown on the Sunday Game? The Leinster championship is already dead. Crowds are disappearing, players are disappearing.
In hurling, the money Dublin got would have revived some counties. I said a few years ago that this would kill the GAA and it's getting closer every year. Let's stand together and stop the financial doping.

Ha your comparing dubs success and how it was achieved to lance Armstrong

DONTMATTER

blanch152 wrote: »

The reality is that if the splitting of Dublin is to ever become a reality, it breaks the county structure and the amalgamation of counties will be on the table at the same time.

The O'Rourke argument that lads in Dublin are being denied the opportunity to play and compete at senior level also extends to the better players in the smaller counties who are being denied the ability to play in a competitive team at senior level.

That precedent of the breaking of county structures is why smaller counties are equally opposed to the breaking up of Dublin.

All of the above applies no matter your view of the splitting of Dublin and is the realpolitik of the situation.

Yeah I've heard that one before as well. Splitting Dublin to make it somewhat fair after over a decade of millions upon millions pumped into Dublin GAA will result in other counties having to join together. It's completely nonsensical.
At the moment Dublin are like 3 big counties joined together, why would we try to replicate that?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

DONTMATTER

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Ha your comparing dubs success and how it was achieved to lance Armstrong

Do you know what financial doping means?
It's more on a par with what we've seen in other professional sports. Teams and organisations get millions pumped into them and it results in them winning far more than before. You see it with soccer, rugby, track cycling and any sport really.
The only difference is that we are supposed to be an amateur sport. Buying titles should not be the way things are. Teams are meant to compete on an equal footing. It's not happening and it's wrong.

TrueGael

People should look at the rapid growth and success of Team GB Indoor Cycling and the negative effect it had on other sports of a similar level in terms of participation (in fact some like Basketball having a far higher participation rate). There are a lot of parallels with the situation we are facing with at the moment

1 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/dec/17/british-cycling-other-sports-learn

2 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/15/brutal-but-effective-why-team-gb-is-winning-so-many-olympic-medals

3 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/17/team-gb-cycling-olympic-rivals-question-success-rio-2016


If you look at link 2 you will see there is a very strong correlation between the money invested and return in medals in the respective sports, indeed other sports like Basketball clearly aren't happy at the favouritism shown towards a far less popular sport in Cycling

From giving a quick glance at link 3 we see Team GB's competitors that are perplexed at how a country who had no serious history all of a sudden became a Juggernaut almost overnight in Cycling


Gaelic Games would be the only sport in history all over the world wheereby enormous and disproportionate investment in relation to its competitors didn't have an overwhelming impact on the sporting landscape

Bear in mind that in the Team GB case it was overtaking teams who were backed strongly by national governments in the GAA it is all relatively small local companies who put in a few bob just to keep the ship float not a load of mega wealthy foreign multinational companies pouring gold on top of gold

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think the extent of the financial doping is far worse than many people realise. It is a professional system which creates, develops and produces players through a system which involves highly paid coaches, trainers and is overseen by highly paid directors. This money comes from all of us regular GAA members, they then have gained huge sponsorship money off the back of the success bought by our money which means they can have a senior set up involving the huge backroom team of various coaches, world champions, physiologists etc etc
I was on a different GAA forum a few years ago and all what is happening now was predicted then. The financial doping has made it impossible for Dublin to fail, they have a professional set up in an amateur game. I will go into the financial doping in more detail when I have time. I first will just update a comparison list I created on the GAA forum I used to frequent that shows just how much millions upon millions can buy. The first list is of what Dublin won between 1990 and 2008, the second list is what's been won since.

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016

That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

This seeks to explain Dublin's success by simply stating what they have won while simultaneously mentioning financial doping and hoping the charge will stick and the two will be conflated. It doesn't deal with obvious questions such as why Dublin - if they are benefitting form huge numbers of coaches - have just one All-Ireland minor football title in 34 years while Kerry have four in the last four. It doesn't explain why in their five recent All Ireland final wins only a point has separated them from opponents who are seemingly not financially doped. Nor does it deal with the fact that similar senior success has been achieved in other counties down the years and it was not attributed to financial doping.

Also 18 of the 43 titles in the last decade have been achieved by the senior footballers. That has been the real statistical gamechanger. Maybe that success is particular to this group of players. Your statistics are guiding people by the nose towards conclusions which are not necessarily supported by the statistics when they are examined closely.

DONTMATTER

Powerhouse wrote: »

This seeks to explain Dublin's success by simply stating what they have won while simultaneously mentioning financial doping and hoping the charge will stick and the two will be conflated. It doesn't deal with obvious questions such as why Dublin - if they are benefitting form huge numbers of coaches - have just one All-Ireland minor football title in 34 years while Kerry have four in the last four. It doesn't explain why in their five recent All Ireland final wins only a point has separated them from opponents who are seemingly not financially doped. Nor does it deal with the fact that similar senior success has been achieved in other counties down the years and it was not attributed to financial doping.

Also 18 of the 43 titles in the last decade have been achieved by the senior footballers. That has been the real statistical gamechanger. Maybe that success is particular to this group of players. Your statistics are guiding people by the nose towards conclusions which are not necessarily supported by the statistics when they are examined closely.

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?

Dublin should be winning more at minor level, there is no doubt but the strategic development officers have put more focus on developing senior inter county talent. This means they don't put all resources into their minor set up and hold it for the 18-21 age bracket where seniors are made.

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant. That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant. This financial doping would be unfair and anti what the GAA is meant to be about no matter what the results. Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.

If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you. Compare what they were getting to the millions upon millions of euro Dublin GAA have received in recent years.

Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation. Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.
I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs. The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

dunnerc

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?

Dublin should be winning more at minor level, there is no doubt but the strategic development officers have put more focus on developing senior inter county talent. This means they don't put all resources into their minor set up and hold it for the 18-21 age bracket where seniors are made.

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant. That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant. This financial doping would be unfair and anti what the GAA is meant to be about no matter what the results. Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.

If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you. Compare what they were getting to the millions upon millions of euro Dublin GAA have received in recent years.

Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation. Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.
I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs. The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

Any chance of giving me the lotto numbers for this Saturday

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?


Who said money had nothing to do with Dublin's increased success? Sure if someone hands you a tenner for a juvenile football it can be argued that is has something to do with a county's increased success. And, incidentally, if Dublin are to be required to pay back funds on the basis that it contributes nothing to success, would you require the counties that win nothing at all to pay back all their funding on the basis that it's achieving nothing? We wouldn't have different rules for them now would we?

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant.



It is relevant in showing that some of the margins of vctory are in no way commensurate with funding disparities and crude attempts to draw straight lines between success and funding are just that.



That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant.



Of course it's relevant. The discussion of funding for Dublin wouldn't even arise if they weren't winning.



Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.


But you said earlier that the margins are irrelavant? Which is it?!


If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you.



If you point out where I said that I'll happily deal with it. Probably better to be hearing me on stuff I have actually said.



Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation.



25.................20..................whatever the one explanation might be is the difference statistically when you take away the recent success of the senior footballers is not significant whereas 43 v 20 is. The original poster tried to camouflage this in a haze of statistics but failed to do so.



Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs.



I can't comment on this as it requires me to have to be able to see into the future. Maybe Dublin's success will dry up before September this year. I have no idea. That's why I said that "Maybe that success is particular to this group of players". It's too early for me to say what you are saying that Dublin will win many more All-Irelands in the current era. In a debate which is being informed to an extent at least by statistics I can comment only on available evidence and not future speculation.



But I will say that there are plenty of examples in football history where players played in teams being hammered and went on to enjoy sterling reputations and great success. Michael Murphy played on a Donegal team which lost to Antrim in Ballybofey in an Ulster quarter-final three years before winning an All-Ireland.



The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

I would be slow enough to play this particuklar tune. Bear in mind that no county packs grounds and as such contribuites to the GAA's coffers like Dublin does. What pairing other than one involving Dublin could fill Croke Park for a League Final as happened a few years ago? I'd say there are many counties who supporters don't pay their county's way but expect a slice of the funding cake.

DONTMATTER

Have a look at post 104, the poster posts articles which show how increased funding leads to increased success.
Have a good read of them.


It doesn't matter if they win by one, 20, lose the game, whatever, the funding is wrong. Full stop. People have been discussing this for years, long before their current run. It has to end.

That's separate to the actual fact that with all their advantages it's impossible to fail. You understand the difference?


Why bring it up then? The reason Dublin and financial doping comes up is because of the millions Dublin GAA have received. The reason past teams and financial doping wasn't discussed was because they didn't receive millions of euro. You understand?


This next point is hilarious!! I am the original poster and if you take away the senior footballers titles from both their recent run and the period between 1990 and 2008, you have totals of 25 and 8!


I've just shown you it's not one group of players!


So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

largepants

Patww79 wrote: »

You can hear something but hearing doesn't automatically mean agreeing.

It also means you don't ridilcule someone for having a different opinion.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Yeah I've heard that one before as well. Splitting Dublin to make it somewhat fair after over a decade of millions upon millions pumped into Dublin GAA will result in other counties having to join together. It's completely nonsensical.
At the moment Dublin are like 3 big counties joined together, why would we try to replicate that?

It really depends though, doesn't it?

Are you interested in changing county boundaries to secure a more competitive championship all round? If you are, then combining counties as well as splitting Dublin is on the table.

Are you only interested in knocking Dublin down so that one of Kerry, Mayo, Cork or Meath can benefit? Well, then you only want the splitting of Dublin as Carlow/Wicklow or Limerick/Clare would scare you. I have no time for this special pleading and whinging.

If the real issue is an even competition, then combining as well as splitting have to be on the table. If people want to protect county boundaries, then they have to protect them all. I don't have an issue with either position.

TrueGael

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin#Local_authorities

But the counties (all of them with huge populations) in the Dublin Region are combined together everyone else just gets the pick of their county and some of these have very small playing pools and resources VS a conglomerate of 4 incredibly wealthy counties put together

largepants

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't mean you are ridiculing anyone. But posters are being ridiculed for having a different opinion.

Patww79 wrote: »

The Gael is here at last. Now it'll become obvious why this was necessary.

This post above proves the real reason for your thread. You are courting hostility to draw out the 'anti Dubs'. That one is obvious.

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

This is the kind of non-sequitur mad conclusion which really undermines your argument.

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

To answer this directly, I think it's too early to say. I know there are large numbers of under-age coaches in Dublin, for example, but there's no evidence of Dublin dominating Minor football in Leinster. They've won two of the last five titles. Kerry have won five from five in Munster. Galway have won the last three in Connacht. Extra coaches I am sure increase participation levels and elongate young people's involvement in sport but there's no evidence that it is corrupting competition. And at Minor level arguably it should be more apparent as Dublin should have the ability to replenish their numbers more easily than smaller counties whereas at Senior level other counties can get maybe a decade from a bunch of Senior players. The advantage of numbers which should be accentuated by funding and coaching at younger age-groups is not apparent.

I have heard the arguments before about the correlation between money and success but again the long-run has not always proven it. Two years ago know-alls were shaking their heads over the probability that the European Champions Cup trophy would never again leave France or England as they sought alternative explanations for the decreased competitiveness of certain teams but that didn't come to pass this year. Conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

Likewise a decade and a half ago you'd nearly have had to take cover from all the wise guys who bleated on about the "Aussies" who were civilised enough to know that nothing mattered like sport and the were investing hugely in it and showing the results. You tend not to hear the same people talking these days about how that country's Olympic performance has dropped and about how shocking the record of their Super Rugby teams is. Again conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

It is possible indeed that Dublin's current success is informed by various factors such as the decline in Leinster football generally, the recent decline of Ulster football and Cork too, as well as the improved performance of the Dublin team itself. Only history will judge that.

In 2009 Kerry beat Dublin by 17 points in the All-Ireland quarter final. On that day Dublin players included: Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick, Paddy Andrews, Bryan Cullen, Barry Cahill, Paul Flynn, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Alan Brogan and Cian O’Sullivan. Two years later the same players having been outscored 0-8 to 0-3 between the 35th minute and the 63rd minute came back to beat Kerry in the last ten minutes of the All-Ireland. Funding does not explain that.

The same type of people who sneered at Dublin for performances such as 2009 have always failed to give them credit for a performance like 2011 and the extraordinary transformation brought about by management in recent years. The extent to which that has contributed to Dublin's extraordinary success will too be judged by history. It is far too early to be overly-prescriptive in the entire matter in my view.

Hurling Rankings

This post has been deleted.

DONTMATTER

blanch152 wrote: »

It really depends though, doesn't it?

Are you interested in changing county boundaries to secure a more competitive championship all round? If you are, then combining counties as well as splitting Dublin is on the table.

Are you only interested in knocking Dublin down so that one of Kerry, Mayo, Cork or Meath can benefit? Well, then you only want the splitting of Dublin as Carlow/Wicklow or Limerick/Clare would scare you. I have no time for this special pleading and whinging.

If the real issue is an even competition, then combining as well as splitting have to be on the table. If people want to protect county boundaries, then they have to protect them all. I don't have an issue with either position.

No, everyone should compete on an equal footing. That's all that should be happening and that's what was happening. Look at the Leinster championship prior to the multi million euro injection into Dublin GAA. It was wide open.

DONTMATTER

Powerhouse wrote: »

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

This is the kind of non-sequitur mad conclusion which really undermines your argument.

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

To answer this directly, I think it's too early to say. I know there are large numbers of under-age coaches in Dublin, for example, but there's no evidence of Dublin dominating Minor football in Leinster. They've won two of the last five titles. Kerry have won five from five in Munster. Galway have won the last three in Connacht. Extra coaches I am sure increase participation levels and elongate young people's involvement in sport but there's no evidence that it is corrupting competition. And at Minor level arguably it should be more apparent as Dublin should have the ability to replenish their numbers more easily than smaller counties whereas at Senior level other counties can get maybe a decade from a bunch of Senior players. The advantage of numbers which should be accentuated by funding and coaching at younger age-groups is not apparent.

I have heard the arguments before about the correlation between money and success but again the long-run has not always proven it. Two years ago know-alls were shaking their heads over the probability that the European Champions Cup trophy would never again leave France or England as they sought alternative explanations for the decreased competitiveness of certain teams but that didn't come to pass this year. Conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

Likewise a decade and a half ago you'd nearly have had to take cover from all the wise guys who bleated on about the "Aussies" who were civilised enough to know that nothing mattered like sport and the were investing hugely in it and showing the results. You tend not to hear the same people talking these days about how that country's Olympic performance has dropped and about how shocking the record of their Super Rugby teams is. Again conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

It is possible indeed that Dublin's current success is informed by various factors such as the decline in Leinster football generally, the recent decline of Ulster football and Cork too, as well as the improved performance of the Dublin team itself. Only history will judge that.

In 2009 Kerry beat Dublin by 17 points in the All-Ireland quarter final. On that day Dublin players included: Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick, Paddy Andrews, Bryan Cullen, Barry Cahill, Paul Flynn, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Alan Brogan and Cian O’Sullivan. Two years later the same players having been outscored 0-8 to 0-3 between the 35th minute and the 63rd minute came back to beat Kerry in the last ten minutes of the All-Ireland. Funding does not explain that.

The same type of people who sneered at Dublin for performances such as 2009 have always failed to give them credit for a performance like 2011 and the extraordinary transformation brought about by management in recent years. The extent to which that has contributed to Dublin's extraordinary success will too be judged by history. It is far too early to be overly-prescriptive in the entire matter in my view.

So it's irrelevant to the massive funding issue.


You've ignored the huge increase in titles that I pointed out for you. It's not a coincidence. It's a direct result of the funding. It has improved all areas of Dublin GAA. Having a huge number of paid coaches in the Dublin club scene will improve standards, how could it not?
Let's have a look at the record of Dublin club teams. They've won 9 Leinster titles since the funding started in 2005 and 4 All Ireland's in football. It took a bit longer but in hurling it's 2 Leinster titles and 2 All Ireland's. The first time ever a Dublin team has won a hurling club. Is this just a crazy coincidence as well?

I've already told you that the strategic and development officers (all paid), pay closer attention to developing seniors than minors. The 18-21 age group is where there is serious work done. That's not to say that the standard of their minors are poor, they've won 5 recent Leinster titles.

You are comparing professional sports to an amateur sport. It's not an appropriate comparison.

Do you want to know the difference between 2009 and 2011? It was Mick Fitzsimons, Rory O'Carroll, Cian O'Sullivan, James McCarthy, Kevin Nolan (man of the match in the final), MD Macauley. Basically a new defence, where did they come from? They came through the multi million euro system. So funding does explain that.
It was the same manager in 2009 and 2011 also, so this "extraordinary transformation" didn't come through management. The proof is there for all to see.

DONTMATTER

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Population alone was never a problem, they had that advantage but every county competed with what they had. It's when they were given huge resources, multiples of what any other county was getting, that things changed.

The sponsorship increased hugely when Dublin became successful, how did they become successful? As I've shown, it was through huge funding. A lot of that funding came from all of us.

They got fistfuls of money and they got highly paid individuals to organise the spending and put in place structures.

5 All Ireland's since 2011. Before that they got 1 since 1983. This is ignoring all the other titles that they've racked up, I listed them earlier. This most definitely was an issue a decade ago. It became more of an issue when other counties were being denied funding while Dublin racked it in.

dobman88

@DONTMATTER. When you say other counties were being denied funding but Dublin raked it in. Are you suggesting a type of GAA conspiracy to make Dublin better and win All Irelands whilst weakening other counties?

I can only speak from what I've seen in Kerry but they don't seem to have an issue with funding, the new GAA centre of excellence looks top notch. Pretty sure I've seen similar set ups on my travels in Mayo and Meath but I'm not 100% sure. Surely that counts as funding.

Add into that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone would all command big sponsorship deals then it weakens the argument for funding issues. Surely it's up to each county board to ensure they're getting a fair slice of the pie?

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin#Local_authorities

But the counties (all of them with huge populations) in the Dublin Region are combined together everyone else just gets the pick of their county and some of these have very small playing pools and resources VS a conglomerate of 4 incredibly wealthy counties put together

If you are to define counties by local authority area, you would also have to split Cork and Galway into city and county.

There is no consistency or logic to the proposal to split Dublin. To make the championship more competitive, combining as well as splitting must be on the table.