Pressure mounts on Kathleen Kennedy to step down as head of Lucas Film?

nix

nix wrote:

Christ, i hate when people drop this excuse when excusing the short comings of movie's. It's not a kids movie, it's a movie suitable for all ages. There are plenty of "kids movies" in the past that are amazing, a franchise of this size (And the DC universe) should reach the same heights, considering the amount of money spent, there is no excuse.

The thing is that it is a kids series of films, these films are made for 12 year olds and one of the biggest issues with the series is that 40 year old men who grew up with the films seem to think that the newer films need to appeal to them. It's a misconception the fans have, Star Wars is not made for 40 year old men but for 12 year old kids. To me the Leia flying was farcical, to a 12 year old it was cool. Same for the casino world, I thought it was a boring waste of screentime but much like Jar Jar Bink's at the time kids enjoyed it.

lawred2

These now annual movies are nothing but vehicles by which to milk an all too willing fan base.

Same for the marvel production line.

Hollywood does nothing original anymore.

A lot of the complaints about Star Wars remind me of the debacle that was the lead up to the release of the most recent Ghostbusters, the internet was awash with 40 year old men screaming that their beloved kids franchise (yes I am aware that some of the content in Ghostbusters is quite adult but it's a film that kids latched onto and love upon release) was going to be ruined by the inclusion of women.

The thread on here was a startling look into the mind of fandom, the level of vitriol directed at an unreleased film was shocking and the online fan community launched various attacks on the cast. When the film came out the fans claim to not have gone to the film but as someone who grew up with and still likes Ghostbusters I really rather enjoyed the reboot, so much so that I recently rewatched it and enjoyed it a second time. What struck me most at the time was the fact that many of the most vocal critics were men in their 30s and 40s upset that a film about people hunting ghosts had a female lead, of all the sad thing to get up in arms over it has to be the saddest.

I know, I use it as something of a judgement stick but my little brother did not once give a damn that the Ghostbusters were women, actually, once he asked why after being repeatedly told by someone that girls were stupid as Ghostbusters but after a few minutes he asked why was it stupid and moved on. He saw the film in the cinema a number of times and has since rewatched it quite a bit and still loves it. Now was the film really a failure because grown-ass men felt like their manhood was being assaulted due to the positive affirmative action hiring or was it in reality a success due to the fact that the target audience loved it?

Tipsy McSwagger

There’s only been one truly great SW film, Empire.

Frank O. Pinion

What is with the constant "40 year old man" comments? Let's see how successful these films would be with just 10-15 year olds paying to go see them. Completely alienate your older audience and see how many billions you make then.

And no one gives a crap about anecdotal stories about your brother's movie opinions.

Snake Plisken

On the point of Kennedy making Billions for Disney that is true but if you look at it from a business prospective she has wasted lots from expensive reshoots, firings etc. If the head of the study was a man there would still be questions asked about what the hell has been going on. The problem for Kathleen is that the MCU which the parent company owns seems to have hit after hit it’s like a well oiled machine.
Also there seemed to be a decent story laid out for the trilogy by JJ Abrams and I actually liked the force awakens but again Rian Johnson comes in and is allowed to throw out JJ’s plans and screws up what Colin Trevorrow had planned and had shared his vision with George Lucas and Mark Hamill who approved and said this recently
“I don’t want to talk too much about it because I don’t want to affect the way that fans get to see these films. When we were kids, these movies came to us from far away. They were a gift. And the more we talk about how they’re made, the more it reveals that they’re just movies. But they’re not just movies, they’re more than that. Beyond that, I got the opportunity to tell a story that is a celebration of everything I believe in, I got to tell it to George Lucas and I got to tell it to Luke Skywalker, and those are experiences I will cherish for the rest of my life.”
damn it! He is another 40 year old fanboy as was JJ And they understood the importance of these movies.
Rian Johnson should have been told toe the line by Kennedy and you can have your own original trilogy. But she didn’t and he was allowed to make a devisive movie.
Anyway the poor Box office of Solo was it due to a lack of interest in the character, is it a backlash after The Last Jedi or is it a fatigue of so many Star War movies coming out in such a short period of time. All questions that need to be asked of the head of Lucas Film.

Frank O. Pinion

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

What is with the constant "40 year old man" comments? Let's see how successful these films would be with just 10-15 year olds paying to go see them. Completely alienate your older audience and see how many billions you make then.

And no one gives a crap about anecdotal stories about your brother's movie opinions.

The 40 year old man comments are in regards to the fact that the loudest critics of Star Wars are grown men getting upset over a film made for 12 year olds. We get it, many men in their 40s grew up with Star Wars and think that they have some insight into what the films need to do in order to appeal to them but the thing it is that Star Wars is and always was made for kids. Yes, they appeal to older cinema-goers too but Lucas made a film for 12-year-old boys, not for their 40 year old dads.

Anecdotal they may be but they also highlight how successful these films are given that kids love them, it's kind of sad to read posts from men in their 30s and 40s on forums complaining about a kids film not doing enough to appeal to them. My posts in relation to the current state of Star Wars show just how little I have enjoyed them but I also recognise that as a 32 year old man I am not the target audience. I grew up with Star Wars, watched it all the time and when I was a kid loved them but at some stage, I grew up and my tastes changed. Sure I'm not adverse to rewatching the original trilogy once a decade or so but I'm not going to be upset if the newer films try to appeal to kids rather than adults who think they have some claim to the series. And this is coming from someone who has been thanked in the credits for a number of official Star Wars related releases.

To me, there is nothing sadder than listening to grown men crying that the film in which a couple of robots, a princess, a pirate and some hair clippings race across the galaxy helping a mythical priest take on his absentee father who lost his inhaler. Star Wars, no matter how you try and tart it up was and remains a series aimed at kids. That it appeals to adults too is a happy side effect but I imagine that if you went back 40 years you wouldn't find men in their 40s complaining that the new sci-fi film isn't doing enough to appeal to them.

Snake Plisken

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Darko seems to be obsesssed with 40 year old men and Kids films! What’s up with that?

And I'm out, typical of boards of late whenever something like Star Wars is discussed. Someone doesn't share your love of all things relating to the kids film Star Wars, then rather than discuss the topic like an adult just resort to veiled insults.

Inviere

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I loved The Last Jedi, I can't have been the only one?

You’re not. As a 20 year fan of Star Wars, TLJ was up there with the best of the, for me. Loved literally every second of it. So there’s at least two of us...

Arne_Saknussem

Inviere wrote: »

You’re not. As a 20 year fan of Star Wars, TLJ was up there with the best of the, for me. Loved literally every second of it. So there’s at least two of us...

It's not for you, it's for 12 year old kids

Tom Mann Centuria

Inviere wrote: »

You’re not. As a 20 year fan of Star Wars, TLJ was up there with the best of the, for me. Loved literally every second of it. So there’s at least two of us...

I loved almost every minute, a brilliant film, did think Leia flying scene was a bit silly, but more of a quick meh and move on rather than frothing at the mouth anger.

Lucasfilm still making very profitable films and very watchable films, so she is doing ok imo in answer to OP.

Arne_Saknussem

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

It's not for you, it's for 12 year old kids

From the man himself describing what Star Wars is all about "Your 12-year-olds. This is what we stand for. You’re about to enter the real world. You’re moving away from your parents. You’re probably scared, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Here’s what you should pay attention to: Friendships, honesty, trust, doing the right thing. Living on the light side, avoiding the dark side. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THKzwzieF40

It's funny now to see the real fans who were crying about what Lucas did with the prequels are now crying how they want him back.

Arne_Saknussem

Deleted User wrote: »

From the man himself describing what Star Wars is all about "Your 12-year-olds. This is what we stand for. You’re about to enter the real world. You’re moving away from your parents. You’re probably scared, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Here’s what you should pay attention to: Friendships, honesty, trust, doing the right thing. Living on the light side, avoiding the dark side. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THKzwzieF40

It's funny now to see the real fans who were crying about what Lucas did with the prequels are now crying how they want him back.

Yeah i've seen that before

Inviere

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

It's not for you, it's for 12 year old kids

Truthfully I don’t subscribe to any preconceived notions when it comes to this kind of thing. I’ve been enjoying Star Wars for a long time, and my ageing won’t change that. What would change it, is the quality of the finished product. TLJ blew me away, from start to finish, and I eagerly await the next installment. I’m not a rabid fan/apologist either, I thought Solo was merely good, not rubbish, not outstanding. By comparison, TLJ is a far richer and deeper film for my tastes.

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

did think Leia flying scene was a bit silly, but more of a quick meh and move on rather than frothing at the mouth anger.

Very much agreed, somewhat overly fantastical even for Star Wars. I moved on quite quickly from it though.

tigger123

I loved the Last Jedi too. Kylo and Rey are amazing characters.

Arne_Saknussem

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

It's not for you, it's for 12 year old kids

Also, just to add saying that a film is aimed at 12-year-old kids isn't a criticism, some of the best films ever made are aimed at that age and manage to appeal to adults just as much if not more so. Pixar are the masters of it, UP, Toy Story, Finding Nemo and so on are all films made for kids that adults can enjoy just as much

Sad Professor

How old were most of these Youtube stars filming themselves in front of Luke Skywalker action figures and toy lightsabers when they first saw Star Wars? Probably about 12 or younger. In terms of maturity, many of them haven't really moved far beyond that. (And I don't meant that as insult, just a statement of fact. Extended adolescence is a real thing and I can see it myself too, but these guys are extreme cases.)

So I really don't think the fact that SW is still made for 12 year olds is the problem. I think this is all about cultural ownership. These Youtube dudes think they own SW, hence why they show off their toy collections in the background of every video. It's like "look at what I've invested in this franchise and in geek culture in general, I'm a shareholder and should have a say its in creative direction". And now they are being told they have to share that ownership with younger generations, etc, who they feel don't have the same claim to the franchise because they haven't invested as much in it.

Arne_Saknussem

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, just to add saying that a film is aimed at 12-year-old kids isn't a criticism, some of the best films ever made are aimed at that age and manage to appeal to adults just as much if not more so. Pixar are the masters of it, UP, Toy Story, Finding Nemo and so on are all films made for kids that adults can enjoy just as much

I know, was only pulling your leg.

However, has to be said that when the 40 year old man-babies don't go these films tank hard.

Is there a reason for this, for the way it hasn't caught the imagination of a generation and merchandise is rotting on the shelves?

Arne_Saknussem

Inviere wrote: »

Truthfully I don’t subscribe to any preconceived notions when it comes to this kind of thing. I’ve been enjoying Star Wars for a long time, and my ageing won’t change that. What would change it, is the quality of the finished product. TLJ blew me away, from start to finish, and I eagerly await the next installment. I’m not a rabid fan/apologist either, I thought Solo was merely good, not rubbish, not outstanding. By comparison, TLJ is a far richer and deeper film for my tastes.

Ah yeah, agree with all this except your view on the Last Jedi. Thought it was crap but to each his own

Arne_Saknussem

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

I know, was only pulling your leg.

However, has to be said that when the 40 year old man-babies don't go these films tank hard.

Is there a reason for this, for the way it hasn't caught the imagination of a generation and merchandise is rotting on the shelves?

One of the biggest issues is that every entry of a franchise now has to be the BIGGEST FILM EVER MADE. If you take a look at say Empire, it was made for $60 million (this is adjusted for inflation) and took home $883 million or so.

These days $60 million won't pay your cast and crew wages for a film like Star Wars so we end up with films costing 3 and 4 times what they did 30 years ago and need to bring in well over a billion in order to be seen as a success and instantly for Disney, Star Wars is one franchise that has never taken off in China so a huge percentage of worldwide box office is lost.

Solo was doomed to fail for some time, look at the thread about it here and the glee people took in stating "it's going to fail", "how dare they recast Ford", "not my Star Wars" and my favourites "Disney ruin my Star Wars with gender politics, I want SW not SJW".

As someone who has little interest in Star Wars Solo actually appeals to me, the trailers sell the film well, it looks like a lot of fun and Solo himself seems spot on, just the right amount of cocky. It's also refreshing to know that I don't need to remember parts of a film I saw 2 years ago in order to fully follow it. And yet the supposed real Star Wars fans are hoping and praying it flops and proudly crying out that they won't be seeing it.

Modern fandom is a cancer, youtube is full of grown men thinking they own various franchises from their childhood and seem to think that Disney owes them something. It's amazing just how many box office analysists come out of the woodwork to discuss opening weekend numbers and how Disney owes them a seat on the board so as to save the billion-dollar franchise from being ruined.

Royale with Cheese

I'd be a starwars fan and saw the last three in the cinema, the only three times I've been to the cinema in the past three years in fact. I won't be going to this latest one, not because I never want to see it but because it's only 6 months since the last jedi. It just feels like saturation now, and I didn't think the last jedi was great so that doesn't really make me want to rush out and see another one. I'll wait til I can watch it at home.

Hande hoche!

They should put Kathleen Kennedy in charge of the new Lord of the rings tv series.

Snake Plisken

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I'm out, typical of boards of late whenever something like Star Wars is discussed. Someone doesn't share your love of all things relating to the kids film Star Wars, then rather than discuss the topic like an adult just resort to veiled insults.

Right I’ve edited my post to keep you happy btw you are the one who brought up the whole 40 year old fanboy/kids film (not so veiled attacks ) in the first place now argue against of any of my points I made in my post. It was real easy to keep the fanboys happy and attract new fans with new characters JJ did it well with Han. Rian made Luke into a grumpy old fart who literally disappeared like a stale old fart at the end of TLJ!
Unless JJ works out a way to bring back Luke in the next, LucasFilm and Disney will have lost the fans that you hate so much. At the end of the day it’s a business and lower box office returns is not going to be accepted by the parent company.

Snake Plisken

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Right I’ve edited my post to keep you happy btw you are the one who brought up the whole 40 year old fanboy/kids film (not so veiled attacks ) in the first place now argue against of any of my points I made in my post. It was real easy to keep the fanboys happy and attract new fans with new characters JJ did it well with Han. Rian made Luke into a grumpy old fart who literally disappeared like a stale old fart at the end of TLJ!
Unless JJ works out a way to bring back Luke in the next, LucasFilm and Disney will have lost the fans that you hate so much. At the end of the day it’s a business and lower box office returns is not going to be accepted by the parent company.

Hang on, hate the fans, where did I say that? What I take issue with are the grown men who grew up with Star Wars and think that the new films need to solely appeal to them. At times the reactions from these fans is akin to a jilted boy friend facebook stalking his ex and crying that she has found someone new.

If they bring Luke back to appease 40 year old fans then I am well and truly out, nothing worse than a filmmaker desperately trying to appeal to a fanbase by retconning events to make them happy. It's the cheapest and saddest story telling device, killing off Luke makes perfect sense from a story perspective and sets up the events of a broken resistance in Episode 9. One of the few things I really liked about The Last Jedi was Luke's death, it felt like the right move and alongside Yoda popping up a highlight.

If you want to compare it to the Marvel films as you did, well then Solo is doing similar business to many of the smaller Marvel stand-alone films. Captain America: The First Avenger had a worldwide gross of under $400 million, Ant-Man barely did over $500, Thor, it's first sequel and Doctor Strange all pulled in less than Solo did, Strange did about $750 thousand better in the US than Solo.

If we are comparing like with like then Marvel and Star Wars are doing about the same, while the Avengers films make billions and Black Panther way overperformed the standalone films, especially the earlier ones didn't exactly set the world on fire and let's not forget that The Incredible Hulk was a box office flop making $263 million back on a rumoured production budget of $150 million. I don't recall many people calling for Kevin Feige to be fired for ruining the Marvel films as a result of a single film underperforming.

Snake Plisken

So here is another youtuber now wait before you attack me Jeremy Jahns is a 30 something film reviewer who gives a balanced analysis on the whole Star Wars fans vs Disney. Worth a watch it is interesting the little clip he shows of Kathleen Kennedy talking at the handover from Lucas. Also the quote from Lucas saying he was fed up of being shouted at all the time by fanboys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35aEjj8C4Cg

wandatowell

I'm not a star wars fan at all, having said that I'll go watch them in the cinema as I'm a movie fan but the amount of videos popping up about Kathleen is ridiculous.

Snake Plisken

Snake Plisken wrote: »

So here is another youtuber now wait before you attack me Jeremy Jahns is a 30 something film reviewer who gives a balanced analysis on the whole Star Wars fans vs Disney. Worth a watch it is interesting the little clip he shows of Kathleen Kennedy talking at the handover from Lucas. Also the quote from Lucas saying he was fed up of being shouted at all the time by fanboys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35aEjj8C4Cg

Meh, 2 seconds in and already I'm out. I have never understood this obsession people have with using random Youtube opinions in discussion. Why would I care enough about the opinion of some random guy to spend 15 minutes listening to him talk about Star Wars? Does he have startling insight into products that aren't widely discussed elsewhere? Or has he met a member of the cast in passing and know where Kennedy has gone wrong in only making billions of dollars in profit.

S.M.B.

As I was born in the early 80s I did not get to see the original run of the trilogy in the cinema. Since then I have gone to every movie on opening day/weekend. I rushed to see the special edition version of the OT during the 90s, the prequels, the latest trilogy & rogue one.

I have yet to see solo and won't for another week where I'll be going because my company are organising a social event around it.

I'm guessing there are many like me who just have less interest in seeing a spin off movie that Ron Howard came in to rescue 5 months after TLJ (which I absolutely loved). I'm not even that bothered about the "Ford = solo" angle.

Also, its competing with some real big movies at the moment, one of those released from the same studio.

So maybe it hasn't lived up to the lofty standards set by other Disney /SW movies.

Is this KKs fault? Disneys? Lucas'? Hollywood's? All of the above?

eeguy

S.M.B. wrote: »

Is this KKs fault? Disneys? Lucas'? Hollywood's? All of the above?

I'd say its general audience fatigue.

There's a half dozen sci-fi fantasy series on at the moment.
Between the glut of Marvel universe movies, X-men, Deadpool, the DC movies, Star Trek and all the OTHER Star Wars movies, I'd say people are less and less bothered about seeing a Star Wars spin off. I saw Force Awakens on release day. I saw Rogue One a few days after release. TLJ a few weeks after release. Can't be bothered with Solo really, although that's just me.

Frank O. Pinion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I'm out, typical of boards of late whenever something like Star Wars is discussed. Someone doesn't share your love of all things relating to the kids film Star Wars, then rather than discuss the topic like an adult just resort to veiled insults.

Wait, Star Wars is a kids film!? I don't think you've mentioned that...