Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Giveitfong

The marvellous effort of the Waterford Under 21s against Cork last Wednesday was all the more commendable given the way the odds were stacked against them. First of all, no less than nine of Cork’s senior hurling panel started the game. Of these, three (Mark Coleman, Darragh Fitzgibbon and Shane Kingston) are regular first team members while Robbie O’Flynn is regularly used as a substitute. By contrast, Waterford had just three, marginal, members of the senior panel on board, of whom two (Conor Prunty and Darragh Lyons) were just returning from long-term injury. This gave Cork an edge in terms of fitness, strength and conditioning which became very obvious in the fourth quarter and ultimately carried them to victory.

Based on what we saw last Wednesday, several more of the Waterford team could well have merited a place on the senior panel. This would not only have given the Under 21s a better chance, but could also have done the same for the seniors. However, with Derek McGrath essentially relying on much the same squad for the last three years, there was little room for new blood on the senior panel.

The contrast between Cork and Waterford in their attitude to the Under 21 level could not have been starker. Last year, John Meyler was both manager of the Cork Under 21 team and a member of the senior management team. This year he became manager of the senior team. There was clear planning here which saw the Under 21s as a development squad for the seniors as part of a strategy to strengthen Cork at senior level into the future. Derek McGrath, by contrast, appeared to regard the Under 21 team as an inconvenience, no more so than in 2016 when there were so many players in both panels.

Despite the difference in fitness and experience levels, Waterford still might well have won last Wednesday’s game. In the first half they shot several bad wides and also passed up on two tap-over points in a vain search for goals. As with the seniors the previous Sunday, these two points could have been crucial at the end.

In the second half Waterford presented Cork with no less than five points through basic errors, even if a couple of these could be attributed to tiredness near the end. Waterford also gifted Cork two pointed frees through needless fouls. On top of that, the referee made a series of iffy decisions which favoured Cork, especially in the first half.

This game confirmed once again Seán Power’s ability to field competitive teams, and clearly he is able to get his charges in the right frame of mind. We have seen too many star-studded under-age Waterford teams in recent times completely failing to turn up on the night. However, there is a lot more to senior intercounty management than this, and aspects of his game management last Wednesday raised serious concerns.

It was not obvious to me why Andrew Casey was substituted in the 42nd minute. Up to then he was easily Waterford’s best player with 12 possessions (three in the second half) and did not appear to be injured. He was carrying most of the weight in midfield, as his partner Michael Mahony (whose selection surprised me) made no impact in this crucial position. He got the first of his three possessions in the 28th minute, and his last play was a tired effort which went directly to a Cork forward and from there over the bar.

It was also difficult to understand the early substitution of Neil Montgomery, who had been one of Waterford’s best players in the first half. Even though he made a couple of errors in the second half, he was still involved in the game, which is more than can be said for most of the other Waterford forwards in the second half. Jack Prendergast got no possessions in the second half, Eddie Meaney got one, while Darragh Lyons and Peter Hogan got two each. While Ian Beecher and Iarlaith Daly both did well when introduced, to my mind they replaced the wrong players.

I would note in passing that, apart from Darragh Lynch, Waterford’s two least effective players, Michael Mahony and Eddie Meaney, were from Ballygunner. Mahony lasted the entire game while Meaney was taken off with a couple of minutes left. Seán Power will have to show better, and stronger, game management than this if he is to progress successfully to senior level.

It might also have been an idea in the closing stages, when Waterford could win no ball in the half forward line and the game was slipping away, to move Billy Nolan to this area (or full forward) where he would have offered a better option for winning incoming high ball. As it was, Nolan further embellished his growing reputation as a goalkeeper with a couple of good saves, good puckouts and distribution, and an ability to nail long-distance frees which is becoming an increasing feature of top intercounty goalkeepers these days. On this kind of form, he would certainly be a rival to Stephen O’Keeffe for the county jersey.

I was impressed by John Curran’s no-nonsense hurling at corner back, and I also thought that Mikey Daykin did well in general play, although it was not a good idea to have him marking the much bigger Declan Dalton for Cork puckouts and long balls out of defence. It would have made more sense to me to use Conor Prunty for this purpose. I thought that Prunty did reasonably well after his long layoff and showed glimpses of his great promise.

Jordan Henley had a big game from start to finish, by which time he was out on his feet. Apart from being goalkeeper in the All-Ireland winning Under 21 team, he had two good years at minor level but didn’t attract the attention of the senior mentors. He had more possessions than any other player on the field with 15 (eight in the first half and seven in the second).

I have already mentioned Andrew Casey who was superb during his relatively short time on the field. In the forwards, the standout performance was from John Paul Lucey. Tall, able to win ball in the air (a major weakness of all Waterford teams) and able to score, he looks like an obvious candidate for senior status. He also impressed against Limerick in last year’s Under 25 championship game.

Darragh Lyons had a terrific first half, but an injury (on top of his lack of game time) seemed to knock the stuffing out of him after half time. It is hard to know where he might figure on the senior team, but he does have something about him. Neil Montgomery also showed good promise. The big disappointment was Jack Prendergast, a player for whom I have great time, but who never got into the game. The fact that he was not named on the original starting fifteen suggests that he may have been carrying an injury and was only deemed fit to play at the last minute.

Overall, then, while it was disappointing to lose a game that might have been won, the big plus to come out of it was the quality of a lot of the Waterford play and players. Under the new incoming management, I would expect up to eight of them to be in contention for places on the senior panel, and some of them for the senior team, in 2019.

Possession count (general play): Billy Nolan (2): John Curran (6); Mikey Daykin (7); Darragh Lynch (0); Conor Prunty (6); Jordan Henley (15); Garry Cullinane (11); Andrew Casey (12); Michael Mahony (3); Darragh Lyons (10); John Paul Lucey (11); Neil Montgomery (8); Eddie Meaney (3); Jack Prendergast (3); Peter

914

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Really though, what is the Kildare player's state of mind this week? Its all well and good the co board and management 'standing up' to the powers that be but the players who just want to go out and play are caught in the middle.
Walsh Park was deemed unfit for purpose by  the relevant health and safety authorities. Newbridge was given no such red light, that's the main difference here. So what did you want, the co board to encourage the players to go on strike unless they played the Tipp game in Nowlan Park? If you think your comparing like with like here and that Waterford would have got the same level of sympathy from the public as Kildare you're badly deluded.

Health and Safety would have allowed games to be held in Walsh Park for a capacity of 8-10k. It was the county board that gave the red light to Walsh Park.

First excuse was that clubs wouldn't get enough tickets so we were told the clubs rejected games in Walsh Park (even though clubs didn't receive tickets for games)

Next excuse was due to health and safety it could only hold 10k which was deemed not enough capacity.

Next excuse was "The Wall" due to replacing the wall they lost stepping and some of the bank which reduced the capacity to 8k. Although the same amount of stepping and bank is present.

Paddy Joe stressed on WLR "only for the wall issue we could have had games"

Also the fact the wall has been falling down for the past three years and the county board only done something about it after Ophelia.

Why they didn't just hold their hands up and say we dropped the ball on Walsh Park, admit it was their fault, apologies and push on with development rather then making excuse after excuse.

cul beag

Giveitfong wrote: »

The marvellous effort of the Waterford Under 21s against Cork last Wednesday was all the more commendable given the way the odds were stacked against them. First of all, no less than nine of Cork’s senior hurling panel started the game. Of these, three (Mark Coleman, Darragh Fitzgibbon and Shane Kingston) are regular first team members while Robbie O’Flynn is regularly used as a substitute. By contrast, Waterford had just three, marginal, members of the senior panel on board, of whom two (Conor Prunty and Darragh Lyons) were just returning from long-term injury. This gave Cork an edge in terms of fitness, strength and conditioning which became very obvious in the fourth quarter and ultimately carried them to victory.

Based on what we saw last Wednesday, several more of the Waterford team could well have merited a place on the senior panel. This would not only have given the Under 21s a better chance, but could also have done the same for the seniors. However, with Derek McGrath essentially relying on much the same squad for the last three years, there was little room for new blood on the senior panel.

The contrast between Cork and Waterford in their attitude to the Under 21 level could not have been starker. Last year, John Meyler was both manager of the Cork Under 21 team and a member of the senior management team. This year he became manager of the senior team. There was clear planning here which saw the Under 21s as a development squad for the seniors as part of a strategy to strengthen Cork at senior level into the future. Derek McGrath, by contrast, appeared to regard the Under 21 team as an inconvenience, no more so than in 2016 when there were so many players in both panels.

Despite the difference in fitness and experience levels, Waterford still might well have won last Wednesday’s game. In the first half they shot several bad wides and also passed up on two tap-over points in a vain search for goals. As with the seniors the previous Sunday, these two points could have been crucial at the end.

In the second half Waterford presented Cork with no less than five points through basic errors, even if a couple of these could be attributed to tiredness near the end. Waterford also gifted Cork two pointed frees through needless fouls. On top of that, the referee made a series of iffy decisions which favoured Cork, especially in the first half.

This game confirmed once again Seán Power’s ability to field competitive teams, and clearly he is able to get his charges in the right frame of mind. We have seen too many star-studded under-age Waterford teams in recent times completely failing to turn up on the night. However, there is a lot more to senior intercounty management than this, and aspects of his game management last Wednesday raised serious concerns.

It was not obvious to me why Andrew Casey was substituted in the 42nd minute. Up to then he was easily Waterford’s best player with 12 possessions (three in the second half) and did not appear to be injured. He was carrying most of the weight in midfield, as his partner Michael Mahony (whose selection surprised me) made no impact in this crucial position. He got the first of his three possessions in the 28th minute, and his last play was a tired effort which went directly to a Cork forward and from there over the bar.

It was also difficult to understand the early substitution of Neil Montgomery, who had been one of Waterford’s best players in the first half. Even though he made a couple of errors in the second half, he was still involved in the game, which is more than can be said for most of the other Waterford forwards in the second half. Jack Prendergast got no possessions in the second half, Eddie Meaney got one, while Darragh Lyons and Peter Hogan got two each. While Ian Beecher and Iarlaith Daly both did well when introduced, to my mind they replaced the wrong players.

I would note in passing that, apart from Darragh Lynch, Waterford’s two least effective players, Michael Mahony and Eddie Meaney, were from Ballygunner. Mahony lasted the entire game while Meaney was taken off with a couple of minutes left. Seán Power will have to show better, and stronger, game management than this if he is to progress successfully to senior level.

It might also have been an idea in the closing stages, when Waterford could win no ball in the half forward line and the game was slipping away, to move Billy Nolan to this area (or full forward) where he would have offered a better option for winning incoming high ball. As it was, Nolan further embellished his growing reputation as a goalkeeper with a couple of good saves, good puckouts and distribution, and an ability to nail long-distance frees which is becoming an increasing feature of top intercounty goalkeepers these days. On this kind of form, he would certainly be a rival to Stephen O’Keeffe for the county jersey.

I was impressed by John Curran’s no-nonsense hurling at corner back, and I also thought that Mikey Daykin did well in general play, although it was not a good idea to have him marking the much bigger Declan Dalton for Cork puckouts and long balls out of defence. It would have made more sense to me to use Conor Prunty for this purpose. I thought that Prunty did reasonably well after his long layoff and showed glimpses of his great promise.

Jordan Henley had a big game from start to finish, by which time he was out on his feet. Apart from being goalkeeper in the All-Ireland winning Under 21 team, he had two good years at minor level but didn’t attract the attention of the senior mentors. He had more possessions than any other player on the field with 15 (eight in the first half and seven in the second).

I have already mentioned Andrew Casey who was superb during his relatively short time on the field. In the forwards, the standout performance was from John Paul Lucey. Tall, able to win ball in the air (a major weakness of all Waterford teams) and able to score, he looks like an obvious candidate for senior status. He also impressed against Limerick in last year’s Under 25 championship game.

Darragh Lyons had a terrific first half, but an injury (on top of his lack of game time) seemed to knock the stuffing out of him after half time. It is hard to know where he might figure on the senior team, but he does have something about him. Neil Montgomery also showed good promise. The big disappointment was Jack Prendergast, a player for whom I have great time, but who never got into the game. The fact that he was not named on the original starting fifteen suggests that he may have been carrying an injury and was only deemed fit to play at the last minute.

Overall, then, while it was disappointing to lose a game that might have been won, the big plus to come out of it was the quality of a lot of the Waterford play and players. Under the new incoming management, I would expect up to eight of them to be in contention for places on the senior panel, and some of them for the senior team, in 2019.

Possession count (general play): Billy Nolan (2): John Curran (6); Mikey Daykin (7); Darragh Lynch (0); Conor Prunty (6); Jordan Henley (15); Garry Cullinane (11); Andrew Casey (12); Michael Mahony (3); Darragh Lyons (10); John Paul Lucey (11); Neil Montgomery (8); Eddie Meaney (3); Jack Prendergast (3); Peter

Again you are right with your analysis of the game. The Andrew Casey substitution was a huge error as Fitzgibbon was causing a lot of problems around the midfield area for Cork. Jack Prendergast was injured playing against Tipp in a challenge game 2 weeks previously so maybe that would account for his performance.
Interesting to see if this management team get the nod for the main role as now Padraig Fanning has added his name to the list of candidates looking for the job.

Mastermcgrath

cul beag wrote: »

Again you are right with your analysis of the game. The Andrew Casey substitution was a huge error as Fitzgibbon was causing a lot of problems around the midfield area for Cork. Jack Prendergast was injured playing against Tipp in a challenge game 2 weeks previously so maybe that would account for his performance.
Interesting to see if this management team get the nod for the main role as now Padraig Fanning has added his name to the list of candidates looking for the job.

Where is it confirmed that has he put his name on a list? And who else is on this list?

deiseach

Whatever about the past, the County Board need to follow Kildare's example (who I am certain were informed by Waterford's woes on the road this year) and say our home games will be in Waterford next year. If Walsh Park is a genuine health & safety problem, as opposed to the bizarre and offensive West Side Story scenario being posited by the Rose of Mooncoin on Newstalk yesterday, then play the games in Fraher. The season ticket numbers from Limerick and Clare will be a lot smaller than from Tipperary and Cork so there should be no issues there. If we are refused, don't play. If we are refused and the County Board give in, there has to be a heave against them.

914

deiseach wrote: »

Whatever about the past, the County Board need to follow Kildare's example (who I am certain were informed by Waterford's woes on the road this year) and say our home games will be in Waterford next year. If Walsh Park is a genuine health & safety problem, as opposed to the bizarre and offensive West Side Story scenario being posited by the Rose of Mooncoin on Newstalk yesterday, then play the games in Fraher. The season ticket numbers from Limerick and Clare will be a lot smaller than from Tipperary and Cork so there should be no issues there. If we are refused, don't play. If we are refused and the County Board give in, there has to be a heave against them.

Anyone know the official capacity of Faher Field? Wiki saying 15k which surely isn't correct.

If 15k is correct then no reason to play away from home.

deiseach

914 wrote: »

Anyone know the official capacity of Faher Field? Wiki saying 15k which surely isn't correct.

If 15k is correct then no reason to play away from home.

There was an attendance of 6,635 at the 2009 Munster Under-21 final which, if memory serves, was an all-ticket affair. If that's the upper limit, and it seems a wee bit more likely than 15,000, so be it. Cater for the season ticket holders then sell the rest through the Waterford clubs, thus encouraging people to buy season tickets and/or, you know, join a club. Packed to the rafters rather than rattling around Semple or PUC. Fortress Fraher!

914

deiseach wrote: »

There was an attendance of 6,635 at the 2009 Munster Under-21 final which, if memory serves, was an all-ticket affair. If that's the upper limit, and it seems a wee bit more likely than 15,000, so be it. Cater for the season ticket holders then sell the rest through the Waterford clubs, thus encouraging people to buy season tickets and/or, you know, join a club. Packed to the rafters rather than rattling around Semple or PUC. Fortress Fraher!

Was thinking it would be more like 6-8k so be it I say. Although I fear we will bw on the road till at least 2020

KevIRL

Game will be played in newbridge. Well done kildare

reni10

Why could our board not just have done exactly the same and stand firm and say it is either Walsh Park or we do NOT play in the Championship at all!

They need to all step down now and the new board need to make sure that we play in Walsh park no matter what next year.
We also need professional like people to lead the approach on the funding needed from the GAA to upgrade the stadium in a very business like manner and not blaming a wall that was falling down for years on the reason for not being able to play there!

enoughtaken

reni10 wrote: »

Why could our board not just have done exactly the same and stand firm and say it is either Walsh Park or we do NOT play in the Championship at all!

They need to all step down now and the new board need to make sure that we play in Walsh park no matter what next year.
We also need professional like people to lead the approach on the funding needed from the GAA to upgrade the stadium in a very business like manner and not blaming a wall that was falling down for years on the reason for not being able to play there!

With the new format in Munster you need 4 dressing rooms (minor match)

deiseach

enoughtaken wrote: »

With the new format in Munster you need 4 dressing rooms (minor match)

Cusack Park has four dressing rooms but they couldn't build a toilet block with a door larger than that of your average living room? Strange sense of priorities. Anyway, it would be easy to put temporary facilities in place in Dungarvan (cue a rule saying 'thou shalt not ask Minors to togeth out in yon Portokabin').

PTH2009

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Where is it confirmed that has he put his name on a list? And who else is on this list?

Would fanning be good enough on his own ??

He's part of Davys Wexford management team atm and was with him down here. Wasant he involved with Laois too ??

Would he be the iron fist candidate John Mullane was talking about In his article

enoughtaken

deiseach wrote: »

enoughtaken wrote: »

With the new format in Munster you need 4 dressing rooms (minor match)

Cusack Park has four dressing rooms but they couldn't build a toilet block with a door larger than that of your average living room? Strange sense of priorities. Anyway, it would be easy to put temporary facilities in place in Dungarvan (cue a rule saying 'thou shalt not ask Minors to togeth out in yon Portokabin').

Dungarvan has adequate toilet and dressing room facilities to host Munster Hurling fixtures. Capacity I would image would be around 7,000

deiseach

enoughtaken wrote: »

Dungarvan has adequate toilet and dressing room facilities to host Munster Hurling fixtures. Capacity I would image would be around 7,000

Good to know. We really have to sow the seeds on this now to ensure there are no health & safety 'objections' when the time comes.

Stopitwillya

Padraic Fanning...... Please god no.
Has he ever won anything as a manager apart from maybe managing mount sion when they were so strong even John Deasy could have managed them to win a county title.
Part of davys setups for years which means more sweepers and defensive hurling. After 10 years of that we need a change not more of the same.

deiseach

https://twitter.com/chillok/status/1011965313473306629

38gitS

Tramore84 wrote: »

Kildare are after placing the Waterford County Board in a very poor light. Time to stand up for fans and players, and cut out the excuses. We need to play at home in Waterford next year.

I doubt they took any cash but if they did, give it back.

We have the players to win an AI, I am not sure about our County Board.

Can’t see the thought of playing 3 games in Thurles and the other in Cork next year being an enticement for any potential manager either.

deise08

Think we're due displacement money.... And that should filter to both the minors and seniors, that had to deal with all the disruption..feck the county board,
Them poor youngfellas should've had the full support respect to be able to have their home games at home... And the supporters too!

Well done to kildare!

Mastermcgrath

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Padraic Fanning...... Please god no.
Has he ever won anything as a manager apart from maybe managing mount sion when they were so strong even John Deasy could have managed them to win a county title.
Part of davys setups for years which means more sweepers and defensive hurling. After 10 years of that we need a change not more of the same.

There is a worrying lack of candidates within the county if he is one of the front runners. For me the only viable candidate within the county so far is Sean Power.
I like the idea of Paul Flynn aswell. He is very highly rated as a coach and was an absolute genius of a player. But management is a different ball game.
Of the other names mentioned; Hartley made a b*****x of the u21s a few years ago. Forget about him. Ken McGrath would be romantic choice but truthfully the noises coming out  his time in charge of Mount Sion were not great. Peter Queally only barely missed out on the job when Derek got it a few years ago. Could be in the mix again. As for this Jason Ryan thing, if that names starts cropping up again it says it all.
Ultimately I believe we will be looking back outside the county for the right man.

Deskjockey

Fair play to Kildare and their manager for standing their ground.

No excuses accepted next year -FROM ANYBODY- regarding any acceptance of playing our home games outside the County.
No Nowlan Park.
No Semple Stadium.
No Pairc Ui Caoimh.
No Limerick FFS ( Jesus, who agreed to that?)
No "Sweeteners"
No Compromise
No "doing the right thing"
No Bowing to season ticket holders from other counties
No pats on the head from the Munster Council for toeing the line
NO GIVING AWAY HOME ADVANTAGE

And last but not least....

No negative puke sweeper fear based hurling

Mastermcgrath

Deskjockey wrote: »

Fair play to Kildare and their manager for standing their ground.

No excuses accepted next year -FROM ANYBODY- regarding any acceptance of playing our home games outside the County.
No Nowlan Park.
No Semple Stadium.
No Pairc Ui Caoimh.
No Limerick FFS ( Jesus, who agreed to that?)
No "Sweeteners"
No Compromise
No "doing the right thing"
No Bowing to season ticket holders from other counties
No pats on the head from the Munster Council for toeing the line
NO GIVING AWAY HOME ADVANTAGE

And last but not least....

No negative puke sweeper fear based hurling

Except that Walsh Park is being refurbished.

Deskjockey

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Except that Walsh Park is being refurbished.

So what - play it in Fraher Field.

Play it in Leamybrien as far as I care.

Just don't go outside Co Waterford

Mastermcgrath

Deskjockey wrote: »

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Except that Walsh Park is being refurbished.

So what - play it in Fraher Field.

Play it in Leamybrien as far as I care.

Just don't go outside Co Waterford

You go girl

cul beag

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

There is a worrying lack of candidates within the county if he is one of the front runners. For me the only viable candidate within the county so far is Sean Power.
I like the idea of Paul Flynn aswell. He is very highly rated as a coach and was an absolute genius of a player. But management is a different ball game.
Of the other names mentioned; Hartley made a b*****x of the u21s a few years ago. Forget about him. Ken McGrath would be romantic choice but truthfully the noises coming out  his time in charge of Mount Sion were not great. Peter Queally only barely missed out on the job when Derek got it a few years ago. Could be in the mix again. As for this Jason Ryan thing, if that names starts cropping up again it says it all.
Ultimately I believe we will be looking back outside the county for the right man.

Jason Ryan will be cropping up again!

Jjjjjjjbarry

A few years back, he was a popular candidate on here.

PTH2009

We could do a Dublin on it with Jason Ryan along with an experienced hurling brain. He would also be a good man to have as a physical trainer in the set up

The players need to be consulted about who they want for the job cause you knw our CB

DiscoStew

PTH2009 wrote: »

We could do a Dublin on it with Jason Ryan along with an experienced hurling brain. He would also be a good man to have as a physical trainer in the set up

The players need to be consulted about who they want for the job cause you knw our CB

We couldn’t really. If the money isn’t there for a manager how is it going to be there for a top coach? Anthony Cunningham is probably getting as much as any intercounty manager for his role in Dublin.
If we’re going outside and paying up I’d love to see Mattie Kenny. Cuala played a lovely brand of hurling and maybe he would like to kickstart his inter county managerial career now after such success with them.
I don’t see it happening however.

Jjjjjjjbarry

The more I think about, Sean Power, Paul Flynn and one or two good selectors and an excellent fitness coach is the way to go. All well available within the county.

DiscoStew

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

The more I think about, Sean Power, Paul Flynn and one or two good selectors and an excellent fitness coach is the way to go. All well available within the county.

This is the most likely scenario to my mind.