Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Cake Man

Maybe it’s just the negativity that goes with being a Waterford supporter the last few years and not having won a single championship game the last two years but looking at those fixtures above there really looks to be no easy fixture or a game where you’d say we’d be in with a good chance and target a win. At least this year, that game was probably home v Clare on the opening day but we managed to totally balls that one up.
Without sounding like another PTH2009 but we could easily be down that road again of getting to game 3 v Cork with two losses under our belts. The hard work starts now.

thesaturdayman

David Walsh, a true Waterford great.

He showed us all what humility is & how to conduct ones self with dignity in the face of tremendous challenge and adversity.

RIP

PTH2009

Tough set of fixtures in Munster with no easy game time will tell, looking forward to 2020

Jjjjjjjjbarry

enoughtaken wrote: »

Munster Hurling Championship fixtures 2020
9-10 May: Cork v Limerick; Waterford v Tipperary
16-17 May: Limerick v Waterford; Tipperary v Clare
23-24 or 29-30 May: Clare v Limerick, Waterford v Cork
6-7 June: Cork v Clare, Limerick v Tipperary
14 June: Clare v Waterford, Tipperary v Cork

Waterford v Tipp in Walsh Park is a great way to start. Up against the All Ireland champions with one of their own plotting against them. A great way to start. We'll still be positive at that stage too!

KevIRL

I assume round 3 for us will be weekend of 29-30 May to prevent us having games three weekends in a row?

Jjjjjjjjbarry

When are the league fixtures due out? Could be some dodgy away trips as far as I remember.

thesaturdayman

probably need to write off the league, imagine therell be a lot of trial and error, doubt this manager will be trying to hit the high notes in the league as he has nothing to prove to us. Fanning was probably under pressure from the off and needed a good league (and got it!) but evidently the league and champ are going further and further apart in terms of relevance.

for me the big thing jumps out (and its not a dig) is the county board cramming fixtures into "club month" in April. should leave the dam thing free for county imo!

looking at last 2 years disastrous, only commonality is the purge of fixtures JB, TDB all playing 4 weekends in a row for eg!

PTH2009

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

When are the league fixtures due out? Could be some dodgy away trips as far as I remember.

The prov fixtures are out but not made public yet

if there going by the last few years we will have 3 away trips and 2 home games. Galway/Limerick/Tipp/Westmeath and Cork in our group. 6th place team (more than likely Westmeath) will go into a relagation playoff with the 6th place team in 1B. 1st place team go straight into the league semi finals with 2nd and 3rd going into the QFS (2nd 1A vs 3rd 1B, 2nd 1B vs 3rd 1A). 4th/5th go out and are safe

im guessing fixtures will be this

Round 1- Weekend of 25th/26th Jan
Round 2- Weekend of 1st/2nd Feb
Round 3- Weekend of 15th/16th Feb
Round 4- Weekend of 22nd/23rd Feb
Round 5- Weekend of 29th Feb/1st Mar
QF- 7th/8th Mar
SF- 14th/15th Mar
F- 22nd or 29th Mar

hurler on de ditch

thesaturdayman wrote: »

probably need to write off the league, imagine therell be a lot of trial and error, doubt this manager will be trying to hit the high notes in the league as he has nothing to prove to us. Fanning was probably under pressure from the off and needed a good league (and got it!) but evidently the league and champ are going further and further apart in terms of relevance.

for me the big thing jumps out (and its not a dig) is the county board cramming fixtures into "club month" in April. should leave the dam thing free for county imo!

looking at last 2 years disastrous, only commonality is the purge of fixtures JB, TDB all playing 4 weekends in a row for eg!

Ridiculous

DiscoStew

thesaturdayman wrote: »

probably need to write off the league, imagine therell be a lot of trial and error, doubt this manager will be trying to hit the high notes in the league as he has nothing to prove to us. Fanning was probably under pressure from the off and needed a good league (and got it!) but evidently the league and champ are going further and further apart in terms of relevance.

for me the big thing jumps out (and its not a dig) is the county board cramming fixtures into "club month" in April. should leave the dam thing free for county imo!

looking at last 2 years disastrous, only commonality is the purge of fixtures JB, TDB all playing 4 weekends in a row for eg!

I’d be inclined to agree on the April club games. I think it makes more sense to start your league games in say May minus the intercounty players and play that through the summer every second weekend basically. Start championship in September then.
As it is ordinary club players bust their balls from Jan to April for what is often just 1 championship game. Some will have more and I think Ballysaggart even possibly ended up without a fixture in April this year due to Waterford reaching the league final and the subsequent postponement of 1 round of hurling.
The only way this could possibly work is with a hugely incentivised league. The league as it is would not work as the rewards are realistically not worth the effort. How to restructure that though I am not quite so sure.

PTH2009

Clare GAA have live coverage of Club championship games on youtube this year

is this something our CB should look at ??

Mick Dempsey stepping away from Kilkenny, could he be coming here as S&C coach ??

hardybuck

PTH2009 wrote: »

Mick Dempsey stepping away from Kilkenny, could he be coming here as S&C coach ??

Be sensible now. Stepping down from 16 years with Kilkenny to take a role with Waterford!?

Mastermcgrath

hardybuck wrote: »

Be sensible now. Stepping down from 16 years with Kilkenny to take a role with Waterford!?

Either one extreme or the other with that lad

mountgomery burns

DiscoStew wrote: »

I’d be inclined to agree on the April club games. I think it makes more sense to start your league games in say May minus the intercounty players and play that through the summer every second weekend basically. Start championship in September then.
As it is ordinary club players bust their balls from Jan to April for what is often just 1 championship game. Some will have more and I think Ballysaggart even possibly ended up without a fixture in April this year due to Waterford reaching the league final and the subsequent postponement of 1 round of hurling.
The only way this could possibly work is with a hugely incentivised league. The league as it is would not work as the rewards are realistically not worth the effort. How to restructure that though I am not quite so sure.

The problem though, and listening to GPA reps talking about second tier football competition was the same, is you're forgetting dual clubs. There was 3 games played in April for those Senior dual clubs this year.

It was grand this year as we'd all the time in the world but if we were for progress as far as we'd like then suddenly congestion is a big issue. I'm not a fan of cramming games into April either and the a summer hiatus but unfortunately this is the biggest challenge the organisation as a whole currently faces and there is no easy solution. As Saturdayman pointed out in fairness, it's not fair on County players either. But they're the minority all the same.

Lingoweet913

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The problem though, and listening to GPA reps talking about second tier football competition was the same, is you're forgetting dual clubs. There was 3 games played in April for those Senior dual clubs this year.

It was grand this year as we'd all the time in the world but if we were for progress as far as we'd like then suddenly congestion is a big issue. I'm not a fan of cramming games into April either and the a summer hiatus but unfortunately this is the biggest challenge the organisation as a whole currently faces and there is no easy solution. As Saturdayman pointed out in fairness, it's not fair on County players either. But they're the minority all the same.

I think there's also a huge problem with the April games in that it prolongs the championship season by 4 months having those games. The problem lies that it's impossible to maintain momentum all year long, so what ends up happening is the club season is basically 2 seasons.

Season 1:
Preseason Training: February - Mid March
Champhionship Training: Mid March - April
Champhionship Games: April

Season 2:
Preseason Training: June - Mid July
Champhionship Training: Mid July - August
Champhionship Games: August - October

This means you have to up organisation, challenge games, intensity and player buy in very early in the year, then things die down for a while mid Summer and try and ramp things up again at the end of the year.

Maybe it's fine for larger clubs (not sure), but in smaller clubs it's very difficult to have all players buy in for a almost a full 8 months. You'll get some players mad for action here and there, but for the whole year it just doesn't happen. I find within my own club this is one of the major reasons we lose players. It does also of course interrupt county preparation in April, but that's not really my focus I'm more worried about clubs.

If we could only have league games in April May June (play every weekend, 2 weeks hurling, 2 weeks football), and have Championship in July August September October then every team would be able to build their progression pretty well and have everyone available at the business end.

It would be even better if we could completely separate the hurling and football seasons - because this notion of flipping between one and the other every week just lowers the standard for that team. It lowers the standard because you obviously have to drop the hurleys the week of football, so you're not building and building progress, it's more of a two steps forward one step back. As well as that, it's not uncommon that a team progressing in one code blocks a match being played in another code holding up the whole competition. So I'd have hurling first in better weather and football after.

There are some problems with this system.

1) Having clubs agree to play league games for 3 months throughout the Summer, where it's again common for games being called off and leagues not getting played. I'm not sure what the major carrot we need to get it done, but maybe if final position determines a loose enough seeding process for championship it would work.
2) It would have been fine for the last 2 years as county ended in June, but previously it wouldn't work as we got to final. I think we'd need to drop the April month and finish the All Ireland 2 weeks earlier again for it to happen. Even if we got to an All Ireland - which doesn't happen very often, like once a decade or longer, it might just be worth taking the hit for having a congested championship.

If you could get this system in place, league in April May June, Championship in July August September October, and separate the hurling and football seasons meaning that no games should be blocked by either county players or a hurling team progressing and blocking a football match or vice versa - then you could in theory release a fixtures calendar on January 1st with every club fixture and have a very good chance of sticking to it fully (the only asterix is that it would be disrupted by a county team getting to an All Ireland semi final, but if everyone knows this it's not a massive problem IMO).

I'm not saying this is a prefect solution of course, I'm sure there is some holes in it but I feel like it's on the right track.

So the benefits are:
- Starting season later, so no more running in the mud in January and February.
- A natural progression - league first and build up to championship.
- Less reasons for matches not being played, eg: progression of a dual team in one code holding up the other code.
- Clubs aren't juggling both, so you don't sacrifice hurling by playing football.
- A definite calendar on day 1.

thesaturdayman

answers are a lot easier then people think tbh....

All county league made up of 8 teams;

Division 1 - 8 quarter finalists this year senior

Division 2 - Bottom 4 Senior + 2 in west final + 2 in East final

Division 3 - Next 4 in West and 4 in East

Division 4 - The Rest + second and third teams

Division 5 - whatever is left.


7 league games - 1st wins the league (promotion + a prize) last gets relegated. Start it week 14 (paddys weekend) - ran to week 22 / 23 (early May) - no county players.

Phelan Cup / Sargent Cup / all county cups open to all teams all grades lower grade teams get home advantage - straight knock out - start week 25 / 26 - should run for 4 - 5 weeks brings you to week 30 (3rd week of July) - county players potentially back with clubs now - dependent on Waterford.

Championship starts week 32/33 1st week of Aug - straight knock out with a second chance / losers group. 4 seeded teams - last years county finalists seeded + league winner + the next highest placed teams in the league / phelan cup winner, cascading accordingly like the champions league positions in England

Championships take no more then 10 weeks to run off - mid week games with proper notice and pre planning can be arranged. meaning the whole lot over Week before Halloween - week 42.

Have a proper rolling 30-60 day fixture plan that is updated and maintained weekly like a master schedule on the county website and published in local papers weekly. Would generate interest as there is priority for league, tables are published and people know when games are on etc. Ideal for the PRO to do and have purpose in the county - games promotion.

Players would know when games are and are not on & clubs would end up a lot more competitive games earlier in the year with an emphasis / gearing up towards the championship - less pointless friendlies

Change the regrade rule also, out of date, particularly in football (black card rule means more players used) to allow players to come on as a Sub in 2 senior games / Start 1 senior game.

its a complete no brainer, lets club players get on with it, give a place & value to usually meaningless phelan cups etc & by allowing intermediate and junior teams enter would let potentially spicey competitive local games for eg. Tramore playing Fenor in hurling, Saviours playing Gaultier in football, Bonmahon against stradbally etc etc.

but to quote the Simpsons " please wont someone think of the boards "

willbeuptuesday

Excellent proposal, we need to bring back meaningful leagues for club players. My suggestions would add to this proposal:
1. Top two in each league qualify for a league final for that Division. The top placed team have home advantage (reward for being most consistent) and the second placed team play them for a cash prize (this is generated from the gate receipts of the final and the prize is split 70:30 the winner taking 70%) The county board should do the gate (ie. Collect the money and for those who don't believe that they won't hand it over, this is money they never had so it won't be an issue). This will add a bit of spice as every club will want to win the money.
2. County players can join the league once Waterford are out, this will improve the standard.
3. Any team who gives a walk over should be fined and a second walkover should mean instant expulsion and relegation (This will force clubs to cop on and respect the competitions). County Board need to be strong on this.
4. 100 % agree on the championship format, their needs to be a cut throat attitude towards it, at the moment everyone is a winner and supporters could nt be bothered, just look at the attendances.

thesaturdayman

Would keep “playing for money” out of it, non monetary but of monetary value like a voucher for hotel in Killarney that lads can go on a night away with.....

Re walkovers, issue I know too well, most of these are forced on clubs due to terrible scheduling / scheduling changes, no long term planning view & finally clubs being made compete against other clubs based on geography and not ability.

Group teams based on ability with competitive games regardless of geography or standard & there will be less walkovers.

Lingoweet913

You might be cutting it a bit tight with dual clubs but it's certainly on the right track. Would probably have top 3 in league and cup winner through to QF, or at least put into "Pot A" if there was to be a draw. Not sure of the structure of Championship but could be worked on.

> This will add a bit of spice as every club will want to win the money.

Small thing, I think although clubs care, players don't as much.

> 100 % agree on the championship format, their needs to be a cut throat attitude towards it, at the moment everyone is a winner and supporters could nt be bothered, just look at the attendances.

Yep, the current systems are basically seeding anyway just let the league take care of that.

> Change the regrade rule also, out of date, particularly in football (black card rule means more players used) to allow players to come on as a Sub in 2 senior games / Start 1 senior game.

Because it's a separate league and not championship I don't think it'd interfere with regrade, which would be important because there would be a lot of junior players playing while county lads are away

Jjjjjjjjbarry

Can anyone name an outside manager before Gerald McCarthy?
I'm not as old as the rest of ye and just wondering!

tommylad1212

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Can anyone name an outside manager before Gerald McCarthy?
I'm not as old as the rest of ye and just wondering!

George lahey

thesultan

thesaturdayman wrote: »

probably need to write off the league, imagine therell be a lot of trial and error, doubt this manager will be trying to hit the high notes in the league as he has nothing to prove to us. Fanning was probably under pressure from the off and needed a good league (and got it!) but evidently the league and champ are going further and further apart in terms of relevance.

for me the big thing jumps out (and its not a dig) is the county board cramming fixtures into "club month" in April. should leave the dam thing free for county imo!

looking at last 2 years disastrous, only commonality is the purge of fixtures JB, TDB all playing 4 weekends in a row for eg!

Disagree with you on the fixtures. You have to give the club player fixtures. Look at this year Tipperary called them off but the previous year Limerick didn't.

Giveitfong

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Can anyone name an outside manager before Gerald McCarthy?
I'm not as old as the rest of ye and just wondering!

Joe McGrath from County Down (but based in Ennis) did two shortish stints in charge of Waterford around 1980 and 1990. He was a great motivator (he got Jim Greene to lose three stone weight which led him to getting an All Star) and his teams were always competitive (although very unlucky - they lost to Clare by a freak goal in 1981 and to Cork in 1990 or 1991 by another flukey goal). However, he didn't see eye to eye with people in the County Board who got rid of him prematurely on both occasions. The second time they replaced him with Georgie Leahy, who was probably the worst manager Waterford ever had. He was from Danesfort. I met a woman once who was from there and when I mentioned Leahy to her she spat out "that useless yoke!". They should have interviewed her before they appointed him!

Giveitfong

willbeuptuesday wrote: »

2. County players can join the league once Waterford are out, this will improve the standard.

In his interview on WLR, Liam Cahill expressed his intention of releasing county panellists to play league games with their clubs in order to give them a break from the county setup and allow them to maintain their links with their clubs. It was refreshing to hear this, and that is the way it should be always. Cahill seems to have a well-balanced view of what the GAA should be about. It's a pity we don't have a decent club league structure to release the players back to.

Mastermcgrath

Giveitfong wrote: »

The second time they replaced him with Georgie Leahy, who was probably the worst manager Waterford ever had. He was from Danesfort. I met a woman once who was from there and when I mentioned Leahy to her she spat out "that useless yoke!". They should have interviewed her before they appointed him!

Well that woman, along with your good self giveitfong should show a little less ignorance. If the late Georgie Leahy (A James Stephens man through and through, not Danesfort) is defined by many in Waterford as being the manager the day they were beat by Kerry, his legacy in many other areas is legendary. Won all Ireland club titles with both James Stephens and Glenmore, managed Laois to a Leinster final in1981 where they were beat by a single point. Also went into manage a great Offaly team in the 80s aswell as Wexford, numerous other counties. Won countless club titles at all different grades in his native Kilkenny and other counties across the country. Did tireless work promoting and coaching work in non hurling counties over a 50 year career span. I’m quite sure he won a championship game with Waterford over Clare on 1992 aswell so to say he was our worst ever manager is extremely hollow (try Paraic Fanning) I was actually embarrassed at the way a guy of Georgie’s stature was treated in Waterford and what he must have thought of the shambles of hurling in the county at the time, and the notions of the locals to boot.

thesultan

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Well that woman, along with your good self giveitfong should show a little less ignorance. If the late Georgie Leahy (A James Stephens man through and through, not Danesfort) is defined by many in Waterford as being the manager the day they were beat by Kerry, his legacy in many other areas is legendary. Won all Ireland club titles with both James Stephens and Glenmore, managed Laois to a Leinster final in1981 where they were beat by a single point. Also went into manage a great Offaly team in the 80s aswell as Wexford, numerous other counties. Won countless club titles at all different grades in his native Kilkenny and other counties across the country. Did tireless work promoting and coaching work in non hurling counties over a 50 year career span. I’m quite sure he won a championship game with Waterford over Clare on 1992 aswell so to say he was our worst ever manager is extremely hollow (try Paraic Fanning) I was actually embarrassed at the way a guy of Georgie’s stature was treated in Waterford and what he must have thought of the shambles of hurling in the county at the time, and the notions of the locals to boot.

https://youtu.be/SzJWjHhdtao

Interviewed at the end of this stuck in three teams..

PTH2009

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Well that woman, along with your good self giveitfong should show a little less ignorance. If the late Georgie Leahy (A James Stephens man through and through, not Danesfort) is defined by many in Waterford as being the manager the day they were beat by Kerry, his legacy in many other areas is legendary. Won all Ireland club titles with both James Stephens and Glenmore, managed Laois to a Leinster final in1981 where they were beat by a single point. Also went into manage a great Offaly team in the 80s aswell as Wexford, numerous other counties. Won countless club titles at all different grades in his native Kilkenny and other counties across the country. Did tireless work promoting and coaching work in non hurling counties over a 50 year career span. I’m quite sure he won a championship game with Waterford over Clare on 1992 aswell so to say he was our worst ever manager is extremely hollow (try Paraic Fanning) I was actually embarrassed at the way a guy of Georgie’s stature was treated in Waterford and what he must have thought of the shambles of hurling in the county at the time, and the notions of the locals to boot.

Fannings reign will be remembered by getting us to a league final in Croke Park in which we were well beaten

hurler on de ditch

PTH2009 wrote: »

Fannings reign will be remembered by getting us to a league final in Croke Park in which we were well beaten

Sincerely doubt it

Giveitfong

It appears I was wrong about George Leahy being from Danesfort, but I am not wrong about what the woman from Danesfort said about Leahy. And whatever about Leahy’s achievements as a coach elsewhere, I still regard him as probably the worst manager Waterford ever had.
Two of the best talents from the Waterford Under 21 team that won the All-Ireland in 1992, Johnny Brenner and Growler Daly, dropped out during Leahy’s time in charge of Waterford. Brenner was a massive loss. He made a huge impact when he came into the Waterford senior team in 1991. I remember him being particularly brilliant in his first game for Waterford, in the league against Kilkenny in Walsh Park, and later in the year against Galway in Ballinasloe. That year Waterford were unlucky to lose by a flukey goal to Cork in the Munster championship.

In 1992, the first year of George Leahy’s period in charge of Waterford, Brenner dropped off the panel, mainly to focus on his university studies. He did make himself available for the Munster semi-final against Limerick but was not used in a game which Waterford again lost by a goal. He remained on the panel for the 1992-93 league, but dropped out at the end of it. That was the year Waterford lost in the first round of the championship to Kerry in Walsh Park.

Brenner, a very intelligent and calculating person, made no secret of his view of Leahy in an interview with Kieran Shannon in the Irish Independent in April 2000. When Leahy came in, he was “old school in approach. There was no warm-up before games; it was all pride and passion.'' Brenner decided to put his studies ahead of his hurling career. He said “the set-up in Waterford was ridiculous. There was never a feeling that we were ever going to do anything.”

As Shannon put it: “A student of science, Brenner knew there was little scientific about Waterford’s approach.” Quoting Brenner: “I wasn't going to play inter-county hurling for a joke of a team, fail my exams and end up with nothing.''

Brenner made a couple of comeback attempts after Leahy departed the scene, but was never able to get back to the level he was at in 1991 and 1992. Waterford had a good senior team in those years, and with the 1992 under 21 stars coming on board, they should have been able to make the breakthrough five years before they eventually did. Instead, under Leahy, they went into reverse. Who knows what we might have achieved under a different manager, and with Brenner and Growler both in the team.

thesultan

Giveitfong wrote: »

It appears I was wrong about George Leahy being from Danesfort, but I am not wrong about what the woman from Danesfort said about Leahy. And whatever about Leahy’s achievements as a coach elsewhere, I still regard him as probably the worst manager Waterford ever had.
Two of the best talents from the Waterford Under 21 team that won the All-Ireland in 1992, Johnny Brenner and Growler Daly, dropped out during Leahy’s time in charge of Waterford. Brenner was a massive loss. He made a huge impact when he came into the Waterford senior team in 1991. I remember him being particularly brilliant in his first game for Waterford, in the league against Kilkenny in Walsh Park, and later in the year against Galway in Ballinasloe. That year Waterford were unlucky to lose by a flukey goal to Cork in the Munster championship.

In 1992, the first year of George Leahy’s period in charge of Waterford, Brenner dropped off the panel, mainly to focus on his university studies. He did make himself available for the Munster semi-final against Limerick but was not used in a game which Waterford again lost by a goal. He remained on the panel for the 1992-93 league, but dropped out at the end of it. That was the year Waterford lost in the first round of the championship to Kerry in Walsh Park.

Brenner, a very intelligent and calculating person, made no secret of his view of Leahy in an interview with Kieran Shannon in the Irish Independent in April 2000. When Leahy came in, he was “old school in approach. There was no warm-up before games; it was all pride and passion.'' Brenner decided to put his studies ahead of his hurling career. He said “the set-up in Waterford was ridiculous. There was never a feeling that we were ever going to do anything.”

As Shannon put it: “A student of science, Brenner knew there was little scientific about Waterford’s approach.” Quoting Brenner: “I wasn't going to play inter-county hurling for a joke of a team, fail my exams and end up with nothing.''

Brenner made a couple of comeback attempts after Leahy departed the scene, but was never able to get back to the level he was at in 1991 and 1992. Waterford had a good senior team in those years, and with the 1992 under 21 stars coming on board, they should have been able to make the breakthrough five years before they eventually did. Instead, under Leahy, they went into reverse. Who knows what we might have achieved under a different manager, and with Brenner and Growler both in the team.

Growler never had the pace for inter county