Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

hardybuck

But is that passing the buck by the players?

Do they need to be carefully micromanaged and carry out very precise instructions, and perhaps have they not developed the ability to read the game and make decisions on the field as games develop?

If I was critical of the current setup I'd be critical of the player's touch and their lack of game management ability.

When we had great teams in the past we knew how to create and exploit space. The team didn't always know how to close down space at the other end of the field but that's another story.

SW1985

hardybuck wrote: »

But is that passing the buck by the players?

Do they need to be carefully micromanaged and carry out very precise instructions, and perhaps have they not developed the ability to read the game and make decisions on the field as games develop?

If I was critical of the current setup I'd be critical of the player's touch and their lack of game management ability.

Well what's the solution then? Just tell them to play better? Performance comes from getting a lot of factors right. Focus, motivation, training, clarity of approach etc. I struggle to see how a group of players turns to crap overnight.

I don't think they were ever micromanaged and asked to carry out precise instructions. But they had a clear plan of how they wanted to play and certain grounding principles to fall back on within games. I doubt if any serious team is going out and trying to play "off the cuff" these days to be totally honest.

The player's touch question is an interesting one. 2 and 3 years ago we'd have said our lads were among the very best in this department. What's missing now? Where's the focus gone? The hand eye coordination won't have disappeared. I tend to think it's a lack of belief in what they are doing. They don't believe in what they are doing right now. It manifests in the small moments. I could be completely wrong though. I don't know any of the lads personally.

hurler on de ditch

SW1985 wrote: »

Many people have got what they asked for this year and the results have been somewhat predictable. Perhaps the naive ideas fade away now. There's so much more to it than throwing the lightweight forwards of the under 21 team into the seniors and expecting the same results. 15 on 15 happens nowhere these days. The whole anti-tactics movement in Waterford over the last few years was borne out of naivety and a lack of understanding of the modern game. As irritating as it's been to listen to it I understand that people don't always get things right and often need a demonstration before realising that they are off track. We are in the middle of that now.

Having seen the limitations of the group (at least in relation to the unrealistic expectations) I'd like to think people would be a bit more open to a more pragmatic approach going forward. McGrath wasn't wasting a golden generation of forwards. He was trying to find a way to win an All Ireland without one. His team were tactically astute, focused and tireless. Right now the players look completely lost, without structure or direction and devoid of belief in what they are doing.

I don't mean this as a dig at Fanning. He seems a good guy and I'll be in Walsh Park on Sunday hoping with every ounce of my being that he can turn things around. But if you told me Derek would be back next season I'd be delighted. I would love to see a return to the relentless, dogged, focused approach of his teams and I think the likes of Prunty, Lyons and Prendergast would absolutely thrive in a McGrath team.

Sweet Jesus, Prunty and Lyons,under Mc Grath would be seriously overworked in defence and Prendergast would be running around doing a Dunford or O Halloran on it ,receiving the ball in their own half running forty yards to look up and see one Waterford man in the full forward surrounded by three opposition players .let no one forget the absolute puke hurling that we have had to endure under D Fitz and then D mc Grath and the last day in thurles ,we went down a few points to tipp in the early stages as we were expected to do with a hugely fired up tipp side playing in front of a very big attendance. What we done next was unbelievable ,dropped TDB back as sweeper and started to defend a four ,five ,six point deficit ,game over , half time and the most brainless tactic ever ,throw on Maurice in a two man full forward line to win ball against a four or five man defence ,#FU#$KINGBRAINLESS

SW1985

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, Prunty and Lyons,under Mc Grath would be seriously overworked in defence and Prendergast would be running around doing a Dunford or O Halloran on it ,receiving the ball in their own half running forty yards to look up and see one Waterford man in the full forward surrounded by three opposition players .let no one forget the absolute puke hurling that we have had to endure under D Fitz and then D mc Grath and the last day in thurles ,we went down a few points to tipp in the early stages as we were expected to do with a hugely fired up tipp side playing in front of a very big attendance. What we done next was unbelievable ,dropped TDB back as sweeper and started to defend a four ,five ,six point deficit ,game over , half time and the most brainless tactic ever ,throw on Maurice in a two man full forward line to win ball against a four or five man defence ,#FU#$KINGBRAINLESS

You are exactly the type of supporter I was referring to. Sadly whereas some will re-evaluate upon new evidence, you are too entrenched to ever even consider that you might be wrong. You will just keep banging that same drum because it's all you know.

I would absolutely love for us to get back to that "puke hurling" we played under Derek. We put up high scores and were competitive in an All Ireland final for the only time in my life. It was great.

Stopitwillya

Brick will do a good job Sunday. Playing him midfield in the league final was crazy. Full forward will suit him down to the ground. Great man to win his own ball, something none of the rest of the forwards are capable of and if the right ball goes into him (on top of him and the full back) close to the goal, expect a few of them to stick, and goal chances to come.

All these light forwards we have need someone like brick around them. Hope Maurice starts too.

Stopitwillya

The man with the best plan was Sean Power. The only Waterford man to win an all Ireland as manager. Should have got the job. See in the paper he is managing dunhill this year. Will be interesting to see how they do.

Stopitwillya

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

SW1985 wrote: »

Many people have got what they asked for this year and the results have been somewhat predictable. Perhaps the naive ideas fade away now. There's so much more to it than throwing the lightweight forwards of the under 21 team into the seniors and expecting the same results. 15 on 15 happens nowhere these days. The whole anti-tactics movement in Waterford over the last few years was borne out of naivety and a lack of understanding of the modern game. As irritating as it's been to listen to it I understand that people don't always get things right and often need a demonstration before realising that they are off track. We are in the middle of that now.

Having seen the limitations of the group (at least in relation to the unrealistic expectations) I'd like to think people would be a bit more open to a more pragmatic approach going forward. McGrath wasn't wasting a golden generation of forwards. He was trying to find a way to win an All Ireland without one. His team were tactically astute, focused and tireless. Right now the players look completely lost, without structure or direction and devoid of belief in what they are doing.

I don't mean this as a dig at Fanning. He seems a good guy and I'll be in Walsh Park on Sunday hoping with every ounce of my being that he can turn things around. But if you told me Derek would be back next season I'd be delighted. I would love to see a return to the relentless, dogged, focused approach of his teams and I think the likes of Prunty, Lyons and Prendergast would absolutely thrive in a McGrath team.

Sweet Jesus, Prunty and Lyons,under Mc Grath would be seriously overworked in defence and Prendergast would be running around doing a Dunford or O Halloran on it ,receiving the ball in their own half running forty yards to look up and see one Waterford man in the full forward surrounded by three opposition players .let no one forget the absolute puke hurling that we have had to endure under D Fitz and then D mc Grath and the last day in thurles ,we went down a few points to tipp in the early stages as we were expected to do with a hugely fired up tipp side playing in front of a very big attendance. What we done next was unbelievable ,dropped TDB back as sweeper and started to defend a four ,five ,six point deficit ,game over , half time and the most brainless tactic ever ,throw on Maurice in a two man full forward line to win ball against a four or five man defence ,#FU#$KINGBRAINLESS

Agree with this. Sick of negative managers ruining Waterford teams in the last decade.
Was expecting negative tactics from fanning after all his time with Davy. Up to the league final was pleasantly surprised to see Waterford having a go. Last 3 matches we have played too negatively and the results speak for themselves.

Road-Hog

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Walsh Park is as good a place as anywhere to play the Brick as there's less space and his cleverness and experience will make up a few yards. It's a shame we didn't start him half forward against Clare and maybe the backs wouldn't have been under such pressure. Starting him at midfield v Limerick in the league final is as bizarre a decision as Davy's in starting him full back v Tipp in that munster final in Cork. He was never going to have the legs to match that Limerick duo.

Are people ever going to accept that the area of the playing surface at Walsh Park is equal to that of thurles......there may be less than half a meter in length between them but width is equal if not greater at Walsh Park......😡😡😡

914

Stopitwillya wrote: »

The man with the best plan was Sean Power. The only Waterford man to win an all Ireland as manager. Should have got the job. See in the paper he is managing dunhill this year. Will be interesting to see how they do.

Interesting to see between, minor, u21 and senior we have won 7 All Irelands.

Sean Power has managed two of those All Ireland wins. While I wouldn't be calling for Fannings head as everyone deserves some time, surely Sean Power would have to be in the running the job if it became available in the future, that is providing he would go for it.

Anyway thats enough talk of a managers position as we have one in place and I'm hoping Pairic, his team and the players leave everything on the field for the next two games.

hardybuck

914 wrote: »

Interesting to see between, minor, u21 and senior we have won 7 All Irelands.

Sean Power has managed two of those All Ireland wins. While I wouldn't be calling for Fannings head as everyone deserves some time, surely Sean Power would have to be in the running the job if it became available in the future, that is providing he would go for it.

Anyway thats enough talk of a managers position as we have one in place and I'm hoping Pairic, his team and the players leave everything on the field for the next two games.

Has Sean Power done anything with any team since?

SW1985

Road-Hog wrote: »

Are people ever going to accept that the area of the playing surface at Walsh Park is equal to that of thurles......there may be less than half a meter in length between them but width is equal if not greater at Walsh Park......������

The difference in width is something like 10 meters. Have you even been to both grounds

SW1985

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Agree with this. Sick of negative managers ruining Waterford teams in the last decade.
Was expecting negative tactics from fanning after all his time with Davy. Up to the league final was pleasantly surprised to see Waterford having a go. Last 3 matches we have played too negatively and the results speak for themselves.

I'm always amazed by people's confirmation bias. What they want to see is what they'll manage to see.

SW1985

Stopitwillya wrote: »

The man with the best plan was Sean Power. The only Waterford man to win an all Ireland as manager. Should have got the job. See in the paper he is managing dunhill this year. Will be interesting to see how they do.

Of course, sure Curran and the Bennetts will fly as soon as they get Sean in charge. That's all they've been missing the last few years. Handy job

Mastermcgrath

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Felt sorry for Brick in the League final, chasing shadows around Croke Park.

He might still have a 35-50 minutes in him and maybe management feel he might disrupt the Limerick defence ? Possibly but smacks of desperation ; then again, any other strategy to win some ball in the forwards has not worked to date.

Why would you feel sorry for him? He has made himself available and management have made the decision to pick him. It’s **** or get off the pot....

DiscoStew

Have those who expect Brick to do so well at full forward on Sunday forgotten how Mike Casey absolutely dominated Johnny Glynn in the AI final last year?

Stopitwillya

SW1985 wrote: »

Stopitwillya wrote: »

The man with the best plan was Sean Power. The only Waterford man to win an all Ireland as manager. Should have got the job. See in the paper he is managing dunhill this year. Will be interesting to see how they do.

Of course, sure Curran and the Bennetts will fly as soon as they get Sean in charge. That's all they've been missing the last few years. Handy job

Well they we're flying at minor level and under 21 when he was in charge then.
Why because his teams delivered fast ball into a full forward line where the likes of Curran and bennett were able to make hay. Compare that to these players playing under the likes of McGrath and fanning, where forwards are outnumbered by the opposition's defenders and spend more time running around like headless chickens rather than doing what they do best.

lim4ev

DiscoStew wrote: »

Have those who expect Brick to do so well at full forward on Sunday forgotten how Mike Casey absolutely dominated Johnny Glynn in the AI final last year?

Must agree as a Limerick man as much as I'd respect brick walsh him playing full forward i think would suit mike casey to the ground remember Casey is no slouch in the air either, just my opinion I could be wrong.

killbillvol2

This thread should really receive national attention if not international.

Where else would you get a post mortem 3/4 days before the event?

Has the team actually been named or this info on the Brick starting possibly coming from a pre printed programme?

KevIRL

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/derek-mcgrath1/brick-walshs-character-and-presence-will-be-infectious-927902.html

D McGrath piece in examiner today

Gardner

Stopitwillya wrote: »

The man with the best plan was Sean Power. The only Waterford man to win an all Ireland as manager. Should have got the job. See in the paper he is managing dunhill this year. Will be interesting to see how they do.

This is a new low for this forum. his own club overlooked him which speaks volumes.

question for everyone. has anyone on this forum played hurling competitively at adult level? some of the complete ****e talk here is baffling. too many fellas/kids listening to podcasts and the sunday game

Gardner

KevIRL wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/derek-mcgrath1/brick-walshs-character-and-presence-will-be-infectious-927902.html

D McGrath piece in examiner today

ridiculous article again. chap needs to write a book and just pat himself on the back one last time! this patting on the back every friday is becoming boring!

upthedeise16

KevIRL wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/derek-mcgrath1/brick-walshs-character-and-presence-will-be-infectious-927902.html

D McGrath piece in examiner today

Another set of Love Letters to 2 “his” lads after previously writing them about Jamie Barron, SOK and Austin Gleeson and others over the last few months.

Derek McGrath is totally undermining Fanning with these articles. I have heard of player unrest in the camp and unhappiness towards Fanning’s more bullish attitude to management and players not being happy and wanting McGrath back in. Why wouldn’t they want McGrath back in when he seems to praise everything they do and highlight in the national media. He doesn’t seem to want to criticize any Waterford player as, from what I’ve heard and can sense, he feels it is like the break he took from teaching, he is only on a break from being Waterford hurling manager and will be back soon in the hot seat within these lads careers.

For me, he has had his chance and needs to forget about it with this group of players. He done a good job to win a league final, beat Kilkenny in championship and reach an All-Ireland and no doubt he was an excellent man manager but he needs to move on from this obsession with the current Waterford panel and write more critical analysis on all teams and tactics which is what he would be excellent at, rather than comparing Waterford hurlers to Greek or Roman Gods or whatever he was on about in that article. I’m sure McGrath is a sound bloke and a great man but sharing these private stories about how great the players are is irrelevant to their hurling. I have never seen articles like this from Sheedy, Ryan or other managers who left their counties after success, instead they have written informative articles about hurling and you certainly won’t see the best manager of all time in Cody share these private stories. For me, these articles just pile the pressure on Fanning.

For this weekend, whatever way the side is set up tactically, the players have to perform and if they don’t, they need to man up and accept responsibility, rather than blame management. I think they will perform this week and give it their all, but I also believe Limerick are a better side so it’s going to take a huge effort but hopefully it can be a magical day in a hopping Walsh Park and we can look forward to a do or die battle against Cork in PUC next weekend.

blueflame

Why oh why do we keep writing off lads who are not even near their peak! Is it realistic to expect lads coming out of the underage ranks to set the world alight immediately and not falter - absolutely not. Look back at some of our legends including one that is being openly discussed in this forum "Brick" - Brick took a number of years to settle into the senor team and to show his full potential. Ken for all his talents, was extremely inconsistent until he settled into his role at center back, Dan was constantly slated and written off as he struggled to secure a starting place before he went on to become a legend.

Curran, the Bennett's and Aussie and a host of others are still a long way from their peak. We are also producing other not so prominent hurlers who like Brick may not have shone or won titles at underage level but will surely represent their county at highest level such as Lyons and Prendergast.

What worries me is that it appears there is little work being done at our Senior Level to improve players on an individual basis. We do not seem to be working on their individual failings and technique, focusing more on systems and tactics. I am not stupid enough to ignore the need for tactics and patterns, but I have seen more games lost because of poor or lazy individual technique. Professional sports people work consistently at their personal technique and look to improve it no matter what their stage in their career, believing that if they work and improve on their individual weaknesses, they can contribute more to system and the team. Unfortunately I have not seen any signs of individual improvement in technique and in fact some of our players have gone back the way in this regard, and this for me is the single most worrying aspect.

Some posters are quick on here to accuse others of being blind, while they themselves they believe have perfect vision. Unfortunately they can be equally blinded.

For me Derek brought a lot of positives to the set up, but he also brought a lot of negatives, and in the end I feel it was his failure to observe these negatives that cost him, the team and us as supporters dearly. A typical example of this was he spoke constantly about "the unity and collectivness of his squad" yet it is noticeable how he repeatedly singled out a small number of individuals for special mention. and in doing so appears to have isolated many of the Panel. By all accounts he created a hierarchy that became untouchable, and this is not good for a team or panel

Looking to Sunday, I believe that we have the players to deliver a result, whether or not the team will be set up properly and be sufficently motivated to deliver is the question. We as supporters need to play our part and the news that there are many tickets being returned locally does not auger well for us. I personally received a couple of calls from Limerick looking for tickets, so they are going to travel in strength, while we are returning tickets at a mere €15.00 / €20.00 involving little or no travel - absolutely pathetic - and yet there was cribbing and crying first time around when people "could not get tickets for home games". I only hope that the players and management will be sufficiently self motivated to prove the doubters wrong and prove that "home advantage is real"

SW1985

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Well they we're flying at minor level and under 21 when he was in charge then.
Why because his teams delivered fast ball into a full forward line where the likes of Curran and bennett were able to make hay. Compare that to these players playing under the likes of McGrath and fanning, where forwards are outnumbered by the opposition's defenders and spend more time running around like headless chickens rather than doing what they do best.

Under age hurling.

I've seen Curran a couple of times for his club in the last year or two and he can barely handle the physicality there.

Feel free to live in delusion though.

Ropaire

SW1985 wrote: »

I'm always amazed by people's confirmation bias. What they want to see is what they'll manage to see.

You're proving yourself correct on that one with your own posts.

SW1985

Ropaire wrote: »

You're proving yourself correct on that one with your own posts.

How so?

Tramore84

Have heard that too, lots of tickets being returned in Waterford. Walsh Park will hardly be full on Sunday unless a good few Limerick folk travel down. Mood is not good in the camp I hear......could be just talk but hearing it from lots of different sources. Hopefully the players stand up and fight on Sunday (not literally, need to keep our discipline).

Tramore84

Gardner wrote: »

ridiculous article again. chap needs to write a book and just pat himself on the back one last time! this patting on the back every friday is becoming boring!

Nothing wrong with expressing emoshuns in the national media, I just find the articles hard to read at times...I don't necessarily need to read over and over again that these players are saints....let's just win an effin game, yeah?

_blaaz

Tramore84 wrote: »

Have heard that too, lots of tickets being returned in Waterford. Walsh Park will hardly be full on Sunday unless a good few Limerick folk travel down. Mood is not good in the camp I hear......could be just talk but hearing it from lots of different sources. Hopefully the players stand up and fight on Sunday (not literally, need to keep our discipline).

Heard in work today,by someone close enough to the panel


Fanning was locked out of dressing room after last game.....also.1 reasonably large club returned 80% of its tickets