Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

mountgomery burns

hardybuck wrote: »

Should we rename this thread to the Waterford senior hurling team thread?

What's Kerry and Mayo got to do with Waterford football?

mountgomery burns

fuinneamh wrote: »

While our first touch and our physicality was off in the middle third was off last Sunday, I think a large part of this is explained by both counties schedules.

Waterford went 3 weeks in a row with Clare, Galway and Limerick.
Limerick has Laois, break week and then Dublin and Waterford.

Last year every team in the championship got slaughtered on their 3rd week out on the trot. So this is a big factor to explain our performance on Sunday. .

Very encouraging league and really looking forward to championship now.

A very good point in fairness. Was actually their 4th week on the bounce due to the postponement of the 1st Galway game.

Mulbert

hardybuck wrote: »

Should we rename this thread to the Waterford senior hurling team thread?

Yes. Good idea. Saves people posting to a handful of people about a sport most people on this thread couldn't care less about.

As for club hurling or football, the vast majority of posters here have zero interest bar the results.

Jjjjjjjbarry

Was listening to the GAA hour podcast and Colm Parkinson, JJ Delaney and Brian Carroll were discussing how Waterford seem to have problems catching the ball and nearly always go up with the hurley to try and control it first or tap it down. They focused on the Bennett's in particular and noted the one time Stephen put the hand up he turned and got the goal chance. Contrast with Gillane, who is great at fielding. I'd say it's a fair point and have noticed myself before that there is a preference at using the hurley to take the pace off or control a high ball rather than catching. Moran is good to catch a ball and Tadhg has improved a lot over the last year but other than that we're not great at it. Not to focus on Aussie again but notice how he'll often try and double on a ball instead of catching it and controlling a high ball down into the hand is a bit of a Brick special too. Point being, the quicker you get the ball in hand, the more dangerous you are and tapping it down allows the opposition to get it.

They were also commenting again as everyone in the media does about this free role that Aussie apparently gets. Does he actually have a free role or is he getting moved around to try and get him in the game. All teams rotate a bit these days and Aussie spent time in the full forward position at various times in recent games but I very much doubt this is his choice and would think instruction came from the sideline. Other than that I think he's just working back as is expected to cover if he sees a need.
Is the "free role" a fair comment or bandwagon punditry? If anything he had more of a free role when he was centre back and allowed to go forward as he liked as we had TDB to cover.

DiscoStew

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Was listening to the GAA hour podcast and Colm Parkinson, JJ Delaney and Brian Carroll were discussing how Waterford seem to have problems catching the ball and nearly always go up with the hurley to try and control it first or tap it down. They focused on the Bennett's in particular and noted the one time Stephen put the hand up he turned and got the goal chance. Contrast with Gillane, who is great at fielding. I'd say it's a fair point and have noticed myself before that there is a preference at using the hurley to take the pace off or control a high ball rather than catching. Moran is good to catch a ball and Tadhg has improved a lot over the last year but other than that we're not great at it. Not to focus on Aussie again but notice how he'll often try and double on a ball instead of catching it and controlling a high ball down into the hand is a bit of a Brick special too. Point being, the quicker you get the ball in hand, the more dangerous you are and tapping it down allows the opposition to get it.

They were also commenting again as everyone in the media does about this free role that Aussie apparently gets. Does he actually have a free role or is he getting moved around to try and get him in the game. All teams rotate a bit these days and Aussie spent time in the full forward position at various times in recent games but I very much doubt this is his choice and would think instruction came from the sideline. Other than that I think he's just working back as is expected to cover if he sees a need.
Is the "free role" a fair comment or bandwagon punditry? If anything he had more of a free role when he was centre back and allowed to go forward as he liked as we had TDB to cover.

The Aussie free role is just something that’s been thrown out so many times it’s now believed. No talk of a free role for Mulcahy who regularly was back in his own half despite being named or corner forward, or Tom Morrissey who Spent more time around the Limerick 45 than the Waterford 45, similar could be said for Hegarty who was back in the full back line on a couple of occasions even.
It’s just lazy analysis to suit the agenda.
And I am in no way criticising Limerick for this, they have it down to a fine art and are very hard to counter.

Stopitwillya

Love listening to Tommy Walsh. Great hurler and great broadcaster. Talking alot of sense of how Waterford and others should play against Limerick on the radio.

BloodyBill

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Love listening to Tommy Walsh. Great hurler and great broadcaster. Talking alot of sense of how Waterford and others should play against Limerick on the radio.

What's his take on it? He is a good analyst and give great honest insight. My only issue with him is he tends to put his accent up a notch more regularly. Theres no need for it as theres enough substance there without the need to garnish.

blue note

He was saying that leaving the two bennetts in the full forward line on their own wasn't enough, we'd have to put a third lad up with them. Gleeson started there, but then they were on their own there after that apparently. And we'd have to leave the 3 half forwards properly up in the forwards, not hanging back to midfield. I think giving the limerick players that extra space in the middle of the field would have really been useful.

I actually generally like him as a pundit. But I'm not sure he saw the game.

Road-Hog

BloodyBill wrote: »

What's his take on it? He is a good analyst and give great honest insight. My only issue with him is he tends to put his accent up a notch more regularly. Theres no need for it as theres enough substance there without the need to garnish.

Explain Re accent.....what ya mean by ‘putting his accent up a notch’......is sounding more like a ‘farmer’ then he actually is....?

DiscoStew

blue note wrote: »

He was saying that leaving the two bennetts in the full forward line on their own wasn't enough, we'd have to put a third lad up with them. Gleeson started there, but then they were on their own there after that apparently. And we'd have to leave the 3 half forwards properly up in the forwards, not hanging back to midfield. I think giving the limerick players that extra space in the middle of the field would have really been useful.

I actually generally like him as a pundit. But I'm not sure he saw the game.

Going off your summary here that makes little sense. Our wing forwards were drawn back to try to counter the Limerick half forwards who do this in every game. If we didn’t do this and went man to man we’d have left even more room inside for Gillane and Casey when he was in there at times. The Limerick half back line didn’t follow their men out and no one is suggesting that they should, but yet Waterford are being encouraged to.

Jjjjjjjbarry

I enjoy listening to Tommy. He could make anything sound entertaining as he's so enthusiastic when speaking. I think that's why he's on air more so than for his analysis. He said he'd only watched the game on TG4 and I'd say it's hard to really analyse a game from your couch.

BloodyBill

Road-Hog wrote: »

Explain Re accent.....what ya mean by ‘putting his accent up a notch’......is sounding more like a ‘farmer’ then he actually is....?

Yeah exactly that. I'm a farmers son but my mother and father never had 'long talk' and never permitted us to either. Theres nothing wrong with an accent but I dont like when people wallow in it because it excludes others and is just bad English. An inner city Accent over cooked is just as bad.

tonc76

BloodyBill wrote: »

Yeah exactly that. I'm a farmers son but my mother and father never had 'long talk' and never permitted us to either. Theres nothing wrong with an accent but I dont like when people wallow in it because it excludes others and is just bad English. An inner city Accent over cooked is just as bad.

:rolleyes: Jesus wept :rolleyes:

farmerval

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Was listening to the GAA hour podcast and Colm Parkinson, JJ Delaney and Brian Carroll were discussing how Waterford seem to have problems catching the ball and nearly always go up with the hurley to try and control it first or tap it down. They focused on the Bennett's in particular and noted the one time Stephen put the hand up he turned and got the goal chance. Contrast with Gillane, who is great at fielding. I'd say it's a fair point and have noticed myself before that there is a preference at using the hurley to take the pace off or control a high ball rather than catching. Moran is good to catch a ball and Tadhg has improved a lot over the last year but other than that we're not great at it. Not to focus on Aussie again but notice how he'll often try and double on a ball instead of catching it and controlling a high ball down into the hand is a bit of a Brick special too. Point being, the quicker you get the ball in hand, the more dangerous you are and tapping it down allows the opposition to get it.


Here in Tipperary this is a huge bugbear. lots of our players take the ball on the hurley by choice, even at waist height. This is really frustrating, in the real heat of battle the split second extra is just not there to be wasted. Michael Breen for us is a good example, he regularly tries to take passes on the stick on the run, the number of times he loses control is criminal. Also Limerick really fizz the ball around, some of their stick passing over 30-40 yards are really driven at sharp speeds. Also Limerick regularly pass back rapidly in the direction the ball has come from. This quite different from lots of teams. Regularly that their half backs receive the ball from their full back line, instead of turning into traffic they often immediately fizz the ball baack and wide to on running corner backs.

They were also commenting again as everyone in the media does about this free role that Aussie apparently gets. Does he actually have a free role or is he getting moved around to try and get him in the game. All teams rotate a bit these days and Aussie spent time in the full forward position at various times in recent games but I very much doubt this is his choice and would think instruction came from the sideline. Other than that I think he's just working back as is expected to cover if he sees a need.
Is the "free role" a fair comment or bandwagon punditry? If anything he had more of a free role when he was centre back and allowed to go forward as he liked as we had TDB to cover.

PTH2009

Who's in charge of the under 20 Hurlers this year ???

They play Tipp away in the Munster semi final on the 9th July

Joe Daly

BloodyBill wrote: »

Yeah exactly that. I'm a farmers son but my mother and father never had 'long talk' and never permitted us to either. Theres nothing wrong with an accent but I dont like when people wallow in it because it excludes others and is just bad English. An inner city Accent over cooked is just as bad.

Says he from the back of the beyond.

tommylad1212

PTH2009 wrote: »

Who's in charge of the under 20 Hurlers this year ???

They play Tipp away in the Munster semi final on the 9th July

Gough, roanmore club

BloodyBill

Joe Daly wrote: »

Says he from the back of the beyond.

'Back of Beyond'? Limerick is the 2nd wealthiest part of this country according to the statistics.

TheScoringGoal

Where is the sense in a game starting at 4:30 in Walsh Park on Saturday and then another at 6 in Fraher? The county board sell season tickets for supporters to see as many games as they like and then make it impossible to do.

KevIRL

Stephen o keeffe, Ian Kenny, Philip Mahoney, shane o Sullivan and paudie Mahoney all selected on club team of the year. Paudie nominated for club player of the year

whiteandblue

KevIRL wrote: »

Stephen o keeffe, Ian Kenny, Philip Mahoney, shane o Sullivan and paudie Mahoney all selected on club team of the year. Paudie nominated for club player of the year

Yet Kenny not good enough for the county team?? One of the best man markers in the county in my opinion, would have been an addition towards the end of the league with Prunty, Gleeson, Fives x2 injured

mountgomery burns

farmerval wrote: »

They were also commenting again as everyone in the media does about this free role that Aussie apparently gets. Does he actually have a free role or is he getting moved around to try and get him in the game. All teams rotate a bit these days and Aussie spent time in the full forward position at various times in recent games but I very much doubt this is his choice and would think instruction came from the sideline. Other than that I think he's just working back as is expected to cover if he sees a need.
Is the "free role" a fair comment or bandwagon punditry? If anything he had more of a free role when he was centre back and allowed to go forward as he liked as we had TDB to cover.

He only ever played center back for the Seniors last year. He was wing back in 2015, moved to the forwards in 2016.

You're right he doesn't have a free role, that's just how they explain him not being in the game as if he's running around like a headless chicken to all the places the ball doesn't go. The truth is between him not making enough supporting runs or getting involved in fighting for loose ball, and also a puckouts strategy that did not utilize him at all on Sunday.

Even when it was breaking down we still favoured short puckouts rather than trying to launch a few on him, which is the whole reason you'd think he was playing wing forward. I saw him play wing forward right in front of me first half, and drop to cover in front of the wing back for Limericks puckouts. He would then run straight back up to 10 position if the ball moved to the other side of the field.

He was moved to center forward second half and stayed up there. It could not be less of a free role to be honest.

PTH2009

tommylad1212 wrote: »

Gough, roanmore club

Anyone knw any decent prospects available for the under 20s ???

The past minors of the last few years have been week enough

Mastermcgrath

tommylad1212 wrote: »

Gough, roanmore club

That group is a write-off. Beaten by cricket scores at minor 2 years ago.

PTH2009

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

That group is a write-off. Beaten by cricket scores at minor 2 years ago.

Excitement

How come some countys are competitive underage almost every year ??

Giveitfong

Some interesting statistics from last Sunday’s league final.

Of 40 puckouts in total, Stephen O’Keeffe hit 22 short puckouts or puckouts directed to unmarked team mates further outfield. This was probably justified by the fact that of the 18 long puckouts hit, Limerick won 13. There was a lack of communication, or poor execution on Stephen O’Keeffe’s part, for Waterford’s long puckouts which frequently were won unchallenged by Limerick defenders.

Limerick were even more inclined toward short/directed puckouts, which accounted for 18 of their 27 puckouts. Waterford more or less forced them to do this by withdrawing their forwards and not pushing up on the Limerick puckouts. Limerick won five of their nine long puckouts, a better return than Waterford got from theirs.

Pádraig Fanning said afterwards that he thought Waterford handled the Limerick puckouts very well, but this is debatable. Short puckouts were the main source of long balls into the opposing half. In the first half, Limerick won nine of 18 long balls into the Waterford defence, while Waterford won five of 13 long balls into the Limerick defence. In the second half, Limerick’s return from these balls rose significantly – 13 wins from 18 balls compared to Waterford’s five wins from 12 balls. Overall, therefore, Limerick won 22 of 36 long balls (61%) while Waterford won just ten from 25 (40%).

Generally, Limerick did more damage by working the ball through the lines with their short-passing movements. In all, Limerick completed 52 hand passes to just 31 for Waterford. In many ways, they play like the Kilkenny team of the late 2000s. They are big and strong, they play with great intensity, they pour players into ball landing areas and gang-tackle opponents, and then use short flurries of hand passes to get the ball out of crowded areas and into the clear. I counted just one instance where a Limerick player was caught in possession, whereas this happened ten times to Waterford players.

Yet, despite all this, Waterford were still in the game up to the 65th minute, when they were just five points down. To an extent this was due to Limerick’s higher wide count (16-9), but Waterford did create three good goal chances which came to nothing. Stephen Bennett was particularly unlucky with his second goal chance, which went over the bar off Richie English’s helmet. And if Jack Prendergast had found the net with his late chance, we could have had a grandstand finish.

In the first half, Waterford recovered well from a poor start, when they went six points down, and were just two points down in the 32nd minute, despite Gillane’s goal. However, finished the half poorly to concede three points in a row. Limerick followed up with a strong start to the second half, to push the lead out to eight points by the 44th minute, but Waterford again recovered to get the lead down to five points within five minutes. Limerick failed to score between the 44th and 51st minute, during which period Waterford missed three chances, with Pauric Mahony hitting a post and then firing wide, while a long-distance effort from Shane McNulty fell short. A couple of Waterford points in this period could have led to a much closer finish.

As was the case the previous week, I thought the Waterford full back line did reasonably well given the quality of the players they were faced with, and the quality of the ball coming into them. Shane McNulty had his best game in a Waterford shirt, while Calum Lyons again showed his sure touch under pressure and good use of the ball. I take it that he was substituted in order to give Conor Prunty a run, and he had also shipped a nasty blow to the hand just beforehand. With his mobility, good use of the ball and ability to challenge in the air (which will improve), Lyons should come into consideration for a wingback slot for the championship.

I also thought that Tadhg de Búrca did quite well overall. However, as with Austin Gleeson, Waterford need to figure out how to make better use out of him. It was very noticeable how Limerick’s Declan Hannon kept coming forward to take offloads from team mates and then link up with his midfielders and half forwards. This is a role which de Búrca could well imitate.

I thought it was very strange (and unfair) to place Brick Walsh at midfield, where his lack of pace was sure to be exposed while his ability to win ball in the air would be little used. Similarly, Jack Prendergast is more suited to a wing forward position than in the midfield position where he was used for the last two Sundays. Waterford need more heft in the half forwards, and neither Mikey Kearney nor his rather late replacement, Stephen Roche, provided this. In a recent interview, former Dublin hurler Peter Kelly stated that Oisín O’Rorke was only able to get a place on the Dublin team following the retirement of Dotsy O’Callaghan, as they were too similar in stature and style, and that Dublin couldn’t have two small and light forwards in the same forward line. I think there is food for thought in this for Waterford.

Finally, in his post-match comments, Limerick manager John Kiely remarked on how long it takes to get a team to perfect playing in a particular way. He has had a very stable panel, with few injuries, over the last 18 months. Pádraig Fanning has only been in the job a few months, and a lot of players have been absent through injury. Fanning has said he has a particular game plan or style of play in mind but it has been hard to work on this with all these injuries. These injuries have been a blessing in a way, in that it they have allowed a number of promising players to come into contention for places. Getting to the final has been particularly beneficial in exposing these players to a higher quality of opposition. Overall, Waterford are in a much better position going into the championship than I expected them to be at the beginning of the year.

5948ai

Great Post giveitfong... Definitely not all doom and gloom. Looking forward to the championship now.... Especially the games in walsh park!

Jjjjjjjbarry

The more I think about it, we need to sort midfield even if it means taking someone out of position they’re doing well at.

Option 1: Kevin Moran as he’s been there and done it and is a big game player. He’s arguably in his best form for a few years now at wing back but if we need him elsewhere, we do have options in defense.

Option 2: Shane Bennett. I think he has the engine and work rate and proved at under 21 he can be ‘box to box’. Bit of a risk at this stage though but long term I’d see him as a good partner to Barron.

What does everyone else think?

whiteandblue

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

The more I think about it, we need to sort midfield even if it means taking someone out of position they’re doing well at.

Option 1: Kevin Moran as he’s been there and done it and is a big game player. He’s arguably in his best form for a few years now at wing back but if we need him elsewhere, we do have options in defense.

Option 2: Shane Bennett. I think he has the engine and work rate and proved at under 21 he can be ‘box to box’. Bit of a risk at this stage though but long term I’d see him as a good partner to Barron.

What does everyone else think?

I totally agree that there is an issue with finding a partner for Barron and think the 2 options mentioned are viable, seen as Shane plays a lot of his club hurling around midfield. I do think that himself and Barron might be too similar and lack a bit of a physical presence.

I think a lot depends on what defense Fanning picks and who is fit. If the 2 Fives, Prunty and Conor Gleeson are fit, you could could potentially push up Moran but I still feel he is at his best in the half-back line. Could Tadhg potentially be pushed up? He has a lot of hurling, is physically strong and is mobile and the role of a centre back who is to mark might not suit him, and may suit Moran better.

Similar to what I said above, I think Midget, Dunford and Kearney, though excellent hurlers, lack the physicality to play with Barron and Colm Roche probably has played enough hurling at this level.

Always liked Mark O'Brien and the drive he brought around the middle but again, he hasn't played a lot of intercounty senior level hurling.

It really is a position up for grabs and it may be a question of picking the player in form or reverting to the tried-and-tested Barron and Moran combination. What Moran did for the sideline in the league final in running from left-half back to right-half forward to demand a sideline ball is the leadership we may need around the middle and he seems to be back to form compared to last year. I've changed my mind as I've typed and I'd probably go for Moran

deisedude

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

The more I think about it, we need to sort midfield even if it means taking someone out of position they’re doing well at.

Option 1: Kevin Moran as he’s been there and done it and is a big game player. He’s arguably in his best form for a few years now at wing back but if we need him elsewhere, we do have options in defense.

Option 2: Shane Bennett. I think he has the engine and work rate and proved at under 21 he can be ‘box to box’. Bit of a risk at this stage though but long term I’d see him as a good partner to Barron.

What does everyone else think?

I'd probably pay Moran midfield or fitness permitting maybe Darragh Fives (think he played there one year?)