Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

blueflame

While support was poor yesterday, Croker was not a realistic venue for the hurling final at least. The way tickets were distributed meant there were huge pockets of empty space between supporters and it was genuinely hard to generate any sort of atmosphere. Personally we travelled on the early train and it was packed with Waterford Supporters, many of whom i have met at games all over the country for a long number of years now.

On the match itself, for me it was a bad day at the office. Didn't get carried away with results to date and wont be too depressed with yesterdays showing. The big thing for me is how we will react to this performance, will we learn from it and be brave or will we go into our shell.

For a start we tried to allow the Limerick full back line pick up puck out after puck out in the hope they would go long with it, but they are way to smart for that. Their corner backs held the ball, drawing our man to chase them down and once this happened they started to move the ball at pace through the lines as we tried to adjust to no longer having the spare man, and they then played some delightful balls into their full forward line exposing our full back line. Most disappointing thing for me was our lack of intensity, but being honest, loosing yesterday might be the best thing for us in the long run. We are still trying to adjust our style and have some key players to return also.

I would say that our "handy run" of games in the league have caught up with us, in that our forwards in particular found it had to deal with a more psychical approach from better quality hurlers. Too many lads putting their Hurley up instead of their hand and being bottled up trying to win second phase ball. Additionally we won very little dirty ball out of rucks yesterday and we need to improve on this.

IN honesty though, thinks it has been a very good league for us, Calum Lyons, Jack Prendergast and Darragh Lyons, are going to have big future over the coming years with this team. Getting Darragh and Shane Fives, Conor Prunty, Kieran Bennett, Conor Gleeson and Maurice back to full fitness will really add some experience and physicality to this side and increase competition and our options no end.

While being disappointed yesterday, as i am every time we loose, I for one am still looking forward to the summer with real optimism.

Bluezar

Waterford were never allowed to get going in the game yesterday and to be honest Limerick only for a few misses could have won by a lot more.
Limerick look like an all round outstanding team, their fitness and running game was a joy to watch and it's going to take some team to beat them in the championship.

There was not to many positives we can take from the game save for good performances again from Stephen Bennett and Moran. Overall it's been a good league campaign to make the league final and have some good wins along the way so plenty for Fanning and his team to work on.

It's been mentioned in this thread but our support has really dropped off which is disappointing. My partner is from Mayo and after watching them win yesterday, I would say at least half of the stadium was from Mayo in Croker. They have similar heartache to us every year (more probably with how many finals they lose) but their fans still travel in huge numbers and back their players. 2500 at the Clare game at home was a disgrace a few weeks back and there was very little Waterford fans in Croker yesterday from what I could see.
This is the first year in a few years I have not had a season ticket as I was unable to attend the first few league games myself due to personal reasons but I'm sure the same once a year people who were demanding tickets for the final in 2017 will be back out on May 12th for Clare at home in the championship to bring the demand back up.

whiteandblue

Limerick were plain and simple too good for Waterford yesterday, both on the pitch and tactically.
On the pitch, the physically they bring to the game was too much for Waterford yesterday. Their backs are much more robust than the likes of McNulty and Lyons in our backs and Hogan, Ryan and Shane Bennett in our forwards and they brought an edge that our forwards weren't used to. This was a good experience for these players and they will no doubt learn from it.
The supply of ball by Limerick was excellent and favoured their forwards each time. Limerick are superb at creating an overlap by dropping their midfield and half forwards deep and working short passes to get to the man in space and deliver exceptional ball to their forwards which are almost impossible to defend. I know Connors did have some good moments but overall he was cleaned out and can't understand some of the praise he is getting but I acknowledge the ball being delivered from Byrnes and co made it very hard to defend.
The Limerick puckouts were very frustrating to watch. Not only were Limerick allowed to go short, they weren't pressurised when they received it and they were able to pick out their men and create scores. Waterford didn't want Quaid to go long to Hegarty and Hayes but Moran and De Burca are no slouches in the air and would have competed and at least brought it to ground and battled for it. Hopefully in Walsh Park, there will be a more combative approach and give Quaid something to think about.
I'm not too disheartened by the defeat and feel management and players will learn a lot from it as we seen in '17 against Cork, you learn a lot more in defeat. We have to sort our half backline in terms of who is our centre back and decide if he will follow or sit. I would personally play Moran at 6 and De Burca at 7. At midfield, we haven't found a partner for Barron yet and it is hard to know who to play there but there are options in terms of starting Prendergast who has shown well in some of the games. Players such as Moran, De Burca or Gleeson could be relocated there also.
Overall the league has been positive for Waterford and I'm looking forward to the Munster championship.

thesultan

KevIRL wrote: »

Worth listening to today's Off the Ball hurling show, in particular the interview with Eoin Kelly talking about his exit from Mount Sion and other bits

Link?

Gavlor

killbillvol2 wrote: »

What utter bollocks! The difference in population is about 14 000 or less than 10%. Never mind the additional hassle of travelling from Mayo. Go and get numerate and maybe literate before you start quoting numbers.

I stand corrected, my quick google last night had Waterford at 80000.... not sure what literacy has to do with it though.

I can’t understand how anyone is shocked at the poor turnout from Waterford fans, how many attended the club knockout rounds over the last few years? It all stems from there.

shockframe

Gavlor wrote: »

You do know that mayo has 50000 more people than Waterford yeah? Baring in mind that we’ve only a population 80000 you’d kind of expect them to have a much larger crowd. Wasn’t much difference in terms of enthusiasm today between waterford and limerick fans today until the last 15 minutes so comparisons to mayo who have a bit of a cult one sport following is unfair.

All Ireland tickets should be based on 3 metrics.
Season tickets
Active club members
Club games attended

Mayo's population is 130,000. Waterford's 116.000

westcork blue

Yesterday we saw a waterford team that looked really flat. I think the 4 consecutive games caught up with us and limerick were much fresher. We were also very naive/disorganised at times with some of the backs doubling up on Limerick players while leaving men in 50 yards of space. The second half performance was very poor and in truth we were lucky not to be beaten a score a man.

We refused to play long direct ball into the full forward line which allowed Limerick to hunt in packs and turn us over repeatedly. If we cannot compete for ball in the half forward line we will go nowhere. Playing through the lines is well and good when you’re allowed, it only works effectively when you keep the opposing team defence honest by driving ball over Mf/hb line directly on a fairly regular basis.

Limerick have an incredible group of big men in both hf and hb lines. It’s madness to try to play through them over and over. We saw Stephen Bennett get a couple of good chances when direct ball was played in.

Shane Bennett was very poor and both he and Aussie looked beaten from early in the game. I thought Peter Hogan was great in showing a willingness to work for space, running directly up the gut of the Limerick backs. We need Shane and Austin to do the same.

We need to get Kevin Moran back to midfield or even hf, Tom Devine would be a huge boost as well to the hf options. Maybe Limerick are too good for all or possibly they’re peaking too early. Hopefully we’ll learn a lot from yesterday but the key lesson has to be stop running ball into a packed middle let it in early some of the time and you’ll have more space around the middle as a consequence.

deiseach

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I haven't read any of the thread today so I may be repeating something. But the support from Waterford today was pathetic. And largely silent. As usual.

I stayed for the football, in which I have no interest, and it was uplifting to see the enthusiasm of the Mayo crowd who had travelled in huge numbers.

If I see any BS here about not being able to get tickets for championship games you can all take a long hike. And I'm speaking from nearly 50 years of listening to sunshine supporters who offer f all on days like today.

In fairness, it was a pretty low intensity game. There wasn't much to get excited about, and that was true of the Limerick supporters as well. And I would suggest that there is a large Mayo population in Dublin. Mayo is one of only three counties that experienced a population decline in the last census, and a lot of them have ended up in the smoke. I think it's telling - I'm conscious that this is only anecdotal, this isn't science - that the proprietor of the Mayo GAA Blog lives in Dublin.

For all of that, the attendance levels for Waterford games are disappointing. You really would expect better given the way the hurlers have elevated the profile of the county over the last 20 years. I'd say it would only have taken the attending of 20% of the people who were in Croke Park in September 2017 to have made Waterford's crowd respectable yesterday. Oh, and fair play to the Mayo crowd for making some noise. If anyone thinks Waterford have had it bad...

Gavlor

shockframe wrote: »

Mayo's population is 130,000. Waterford's 116.000

Obviously not after a day on the sauce!!

upthedeise16

https://twitter.com/analysisgaa/status/1112475007735746562?s=21

Great goal but the time the corner back has on the ball from the puckout is ridiculous, no wonder he was able to pick out Morrissey who plays the assisting pass. Happened all too often

Mastermcgrath

A win would have been good but it wasn’t to be. Lots to be positive about heading into the championship. A better league campaign than anyone would have thought and a few new lads in the mix aswell.

A few lads got found out in different positions and maybe no harm that it happened today and not in the Munster Championship. Plenty of lads still to come back. Limerick are still on the highs of last years All Ireland and have carried that form through the league, they are in great condition and have a super bench but I’m not convinced if they can maintain that intensity right through til August. A few other teams are hiding in the long grass and I think we can only improve aswell. I won’t be losing too much sleep over losing a league final, there’s bigger days ahead.

hardybuck

A few reflections from the trip into Croker yesterday:

1. Our full forward line have been nullified to a large extent in the league semi final and final. While the ball going into them was much better than 2018, ball doesn't seem to be able to stick, either through poor first touch, ball going into the corners, or not getting out in front of their man. Contrast that to Limerick's inside forwards who seem to be able to win most types of ball that went into them. Limerick's starting full forward line scored 1-09 while ours got 0-03.

2. Someone mentioned this really strong Waterford panel, it wasn't on the bench for us yesterday, that's for sure. None of our subs got on the scoresheet or changed the game in any way.

3. Waterford started slowly, and that wonder goal broke our momentum, but at no point did we look like winning the game. Even with 15 mins to go and 5 points down, there was no surge of energy there.

4. Our first touch was far inferior to Limerick's, and we struggled to win clean possession anywhere on the field. I think this was partly due to massive pressure from a Limerick side who looked far more physically robust and bigger in general all over the field.

5. While the lads were trying to work the ball out more rather than blasting it anywhere like the previous regime, they really put themselves under pressure by playing themselves down blind alleys at times. I wonder if this is partly due to a lack of confidence in the ball winning ability of our fowards.

6. It's been a while since a football game has outshone the hurling in a double header. The Waterford lads should have been watching that to see the level of conditioning on show, and the type of intensity that was required to win any type of possession.

7. This talk of 'Croke Park is too difficult to get to' is absolute tripe. The low numbers, and low volume, of Waterford support was a real eye opener compared to the other counties, even the Kerry fans seemed to be there in greater numbers and made more noise. This should be no surprise, as the attendances at club games over the last number of years have been absolutely appalling. I couldn't believe that the few Waterford people there ran out the door before the football came on.

8. The sky won't fall in after this, but Waterford will have to up their game big time for Championship, and I think everyone knew this already. Hopefully this is the chastening that gives lads some hunger for what lies ahead.

9. I personally would drop Austin Gleeson for the first round of championship. I think he needs to take a step back and maybe get some time to work with management to figure out what position he actually plays in.

KevIRL

upthedeise16 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/analysisgaa/status/1112475007735746562?s=21

Great goal but the time the corner back has on the ball from the puckout is ridiculous, no wonder he was able to pick out Morrissey who plays the assisting pass. Happened all too often

My main is issue is the amount of space Morrissey has in the middle of the field. If we are conceeding the puck out, no way should he have that space

cul beag

KevIRL wrote: »

My main is issue is the amount of space Morrissey has in the middle of the field. If we are conceeding the puck out, no way should he have that space

Agreed. If the plan was to concede the puckout then space should definitely have been at a premium in the middle third. The big thing is that we learn from it.

deisedude

thesultan wrote: »

Link?

https://www.offtheball.com/podcasts/gaa-on-off-the-ball/hurling-show-ep8-podcast-eoin-kelly-waterford-fears-galway-birth-modern-hurling

deiseach

hardybuck wrote: »

7. This talk of 'Croke Park is too difficult to get to' is absolute tripe. The low numbers, and low volume, of Waterford support was a real eye opener compared to the other counties, even the Kerry fans seemed to be there in greater numbers and made more noise. This should be no surprise, as the attendances at club games over the last number of years have been absolutely appalling. I couldn't believe that the few Waterford people there ran out the door before the football came on.

I'd be surprised if many stayed behind. I'm not hostile to football, I stayed behind for the double-header against Antrim a few years back. But a game in which I am indifferent to the outcome is not worth the difference between getting home at 7 and getting home at 9.

blue note

My memory is that the attendances dropped off a cliff in 2008 (bar the final) and have never recovered. That was the first year I felt we were constantly outnumbered by fans from other counties. The semi final had a big crowd but they were all tipp. The 2010 munster final was the pits for me though - was it about 20k for the replay? That knocked me back a bit.

I've heard the recession blamed, the style of play, lack of competitiveness, number of games, lack of knock out action, etc. But most countries haven't had this drop off in attendance.

The other country that has its clare - even after winning the all Ireland the fans didn't return the next year. But I don't know what the real cause is. Tipp, limerick, Cork, etc are still going to games. But we are not, certainly not in decent numbers.

I don't expect many to miss the clare game because they can't get a ticket. I'd say it will be full, and I'd say we'll hear of drama getting tickets and people missing out. But I'd be surprised if 90% of people who want to get to it don't.

hardybuck

deiseach wrote: »

I'd be surprised if many stayed behind. I'm not hostile to football, I stayed behind for the double-header against Antrim a few years back. But a game in which I am indifferent to the outcome is not worth the difference between getting home at 7 and getting home at 9.

I know everyone has things to do, but I've often wondered about whether half the Waterford support were GAA fans at all. A hell of a lot of people I know who attend games aren't interested in the clubs, or wider GAA. They support the Waterford senior hurling team and that's pretty much it.

What you did miss was the better of the two fixtures yesterday, and you possibly spent longer driving than enjoying the event.

deiseach

hardybuck wrote: »

I know everyone has things to do, but I've often wondered about whether half the Waterford support were GAA fans at all. A hell of a lot of people I know who attend games aren't interested in the clubs, or wider GAA. They support the Waterford senior hurling team and that's pretty much it.

I'm certain there are plenty of people who are only interested in the county team. I'm mostly one of them. I go to the county final most years and the occasional club game. This will change as my son grows up, but for now that's about it in terms of my engagement with the club scene. Surely the problem we're talking about here is that there aren't even enough of that type of person in Waterford.

Jjjjjjjbarry

The home games in Walsh Park should be real battles and the atmosphere will be great hopefully.
What does happen with ticket allocation? Are all the opposition season ticket holders guaranteed tickets? The last thing we need is to be outnumbered at home.

hardybuck

deiseach wrote: »

I'm certain there are plenty of people who are only interested in the county team. I'm mostly one of them. I go to the county final most years and the occasional club game. This will change as my son grows up, but for now that's about it in terms of my engagement with the club scene. Surely the problem we're talking about here is that there aren't even enough of that type of person in Waterford.

I think we're getting caught up in this too much, but no I wouldn't agree with you.

The county team represents every club in the county. If the clubs aren't supported you don't have a good county team.

hardybuck

Jjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

The home games in Walsh Park should be real battles and the atmosphere will be great hopefully.
What does happen with ticket allocation? Are all the opposition season ticket holders guaranteed tickets? The last thing we need is to be outnumbered at home.

A season ticket holder is guaranteed a ticket to their county's opening championship game.

deiseach

hardybuck wrote: »

I think we're getting caught up in this too much, but no I wouldn't agree with you.

The county team represents every club in the county. If the clubs aren't supported you don't have a good county team.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

whiteandblue

hardybuck wrote: »

A season ticket holder is guaranteed a ticket to their county's opening championship game.

Every championship game

PlayByTheRules

I felt Waterford were really missing a guy like Tom Devine yesterday who would make the sliotar stick in the forwards. Conor Gleeson would have made a big difference also. Two very important players to get back into the fold if possible.

puzl

Devine won't be back this year, he has taken a year out to concentrate on his career.

Deisefacts

Christ I must be living in a different county or at different games over the last few weeks then some of the commentators on here. We are physically not up to competing with the top 4/5 teams in hurling. In the famed words of the Derry girls “ catch yereselfs onâ€. Derek knows this, hence the reason he played a sweeper, other teams copped on to this and we got exposed for it. I don’t blame Derek for trying to sweeper system with the players he had at his disposal. Paraic is trying to not use an out and out sweeper but is trying to crowd out certain areas of the pitch with the players he has( which is basically the same as Derek minus 2/3 players) and was hoping brick might win Some puc outs on Sunday, but sadly bricks best days are behind him with a year or 2. Brick has been a brilliant servant to the county over the years but I genuinely believe he needs to step away from the panel immediately. Dublin showed us we couldn’t compete with the physical teams. Clare didn’t want to beat us in Walsh Park and give us ammunition.you could clearly see the Clare lads or management didn’t give a toss about the result at the end but were taking in all the celebrations we were doing. How Galway lost the semi final is still a mystery to me? They should’ve been out of sight at 1/2 time and have forward problems of their own.
In my opinion we’ve major problems that aren’t being addressed by the county board.
1) poorly structured club championships from adult to underage. There is a Serious unwillingness for club supporters to attend their own club games. Why? So if people won’t go to their club games they definitely won’t go to intercounty matches where they don’t have any great connection with the players having not seen them at club level. If you ask the majority of players playing in the club championships they will tell you they’ve lost interest in it over the last 6/7 years. It doesn’t matter to some if they win lose or draw. Some are only too delighted to be gone out of championship before they start college in September as it interferes with their social lives in college if they’ve to come back home for training during the week
2) underage age development is gone through the floor. Is it because you can’t get the right people involved anymore? You have to have all these coaching badges, Garda vetting, child welfare, child protection courses, etc etc to train a juvenile team in a club and from what I see the majority of club teams(juvenile) have the wrong person training these teams and hence they get involved with development squads and therefore the standard coming into county set ups over the last 2/3 years has been average to say the least.
Underage championships are also poor. Last years minor club hurling championship for instance, there was more teams in the 3rd division 13 a side championship then there was in divisions 1-2. Then the county secretary( without any direction from the clubs) decide to make 2 groups of east and west. It was voted on a few years ago that all underage championships would be run on a county wide basis. Why did he do it?

These are just a few observations I think if we can correct them will make a difference in future years. Is there will power from the top table to make the necessary changes? Do the top table recognize the problems with underage in the county? Are they only looking at the here and now and are happy to take victories like the Galway one which papers over the cracks and keeps the Monday morning radio people happy?
I stay back for the Kerry/mayo game yesterday and got talking to a friend of mine from the city and he made some great points regarding the developments which will go on in Walsh Park, he made a great comment at the end that the most expensive thing in Walsh Park will be the merry go round for the board officers to get on and off at the various different jobs they want. We need new ideas from fresh minds.

Road-Hog

Deisefacts wrote: »

Christ I must be living in a different county or at different games over the last few weeks then some of the commentators on here. We are physically not up to competing with the top 4/5 teams in hurling. In the famed words of the Derry girls “ catch yereselfs onâ€. Derek knows this, hence the reason he played a sweeper, other teams copped on to this and we got exposed for it. I don’t blame Derek for trying to sweeper system with the players he had at his disposal. Paraic is trying to not use an out and out sweeper but is trying to crowd out certain areas of the pitch with the players he has( which is basically the same as Derek minus 2/3 players) and was hoping brick might win Some puc outs on Sunday, but sadly bricks best days are behind him with a year or 2. Brick has been a brilliant servant to the county over the years but I genuinely believe he needs to step away from the panel immediately. Dublin showed us we couldn’t compete with the physical teams. Clare didn’t want to beat us in Walsh Park and give us ammunition.you could clearly see the Clare lads or management didn’t give a toss about the result at the end but were taking in all the celebrations we were doing. How Galway lost the semi final is still a mystery to me? They should’ve been out of sight at 1/2 time and have forward problems of their own.
In my opinion we’ve major problems that aren’t being addressed by the county board.
1) poorly structured club championships from adult to underage. There is a Serious unwillingness for club supporters to attend their own club games. Why? So if people won’t go to their club games they definitely won’t go to intercounty matches where they don’t have any great connection with the players having not seen them at club level. If you ask the majority of players playing in the club championships they will tell you they’ve lost interest in it over the last 6/7 years. It doesn’t matter to some if they win lose or draw. Some are only too delighted to be gone out of championship before they start college in September as it interferes with their social lives in college if they’ve to come back home for training during the week
2) underage age development is gone through the floor. Is it because you can’t get the right people involved anymore? You have to have all these coaching badges, Garda vetting, child welfare, child protection courses, etc etc to train a juvenile team in a club and from what I see the majority of club teams(juvenile) have the wrong person training these teams and hence they get involved with development squads and therefore the standard coming into county set ups over the last 2/3 years has been average to say the least.
Underage championships are also poor. Last years minor club hurling championship for instance, there was more teams in the 3rd division 13 a side championship then there was in divisions 1-2. Then the county secretary( without any direction from the clubs) decide to make 2 groups of east and west. It was voted on a few years ago that all underage championships would be run on a county wide basis. Why did he do it?

These are just a few observations I think if we can correct them will make a difference in future years. Is there will power from the top table to make the necessary changes? Do the top table recognize the problems with underage in the county? Are they only looking at the here and now and are happy to take victories like the Galway one which papers over the cracks and keeps the Monday morning radio people happy?
I stay back for the Kerry/mayo game yesterday and got talking to a friend of mine from the city and he made some great points regarding the developments which will go on in Walsh Park, he made a great comment at the end that the most expensive thing in Walsh Park will be the merry go round for the board officers to get on and off at the various different jobs they want. We need new ideas from fresh minds.

This has to be the most negative post/rant in recent years..........some valid points but overall way too ‘glass half empty’......the Clare management not giving a toss and taking in all the celebrations.......missed that one.....the last sentence of the friend’s view of Walsh park developments another classic, how someone could rehash and post this and regard it as significant/insightful is beyond me.....total hyperbolic nonsense....

By the way heard Austin Gleeson has walked off the panel for the foreseeable future......big row with fanning in dressing room yesterday after match......something to do with The side line he put over the bar...?

914

hardybuck wrote: »

9. I personally would drop Austin Gleeson for the first round of championship. I think he needs to take a step back and maybe get some time to work with management to figure out what position he actually plays in.

Simple solution to this I think.

2013 Aussie played centre back in a team which won the Minor All Ireland and he was excellent

2016 Aussie played centre back in a team which won the u21 All Ireland and again he was excellent especially in the Munster final win over Tipp

2016 Aussie wins young hurler of the year and hurler of the year awards playing centre back

2017-present Aussie has played nearly every position bar the half back line.

Stick the young fella in the half back line and let him do what he does best. He is liable to score 4-5 points from half back which is probably what he may score from the half forward line.

Moving him from position to position is no way going to help him. We done the same with Ken McGrath for a number of years also, madness.

KevIRL

Hope that isn't true road-hog. Anyone else heard anything? Would seem an unusual thing to have a row over, was a fine sideline cut tbf