Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904956#Comment_121904956

The problem rail lines do not stay rail lines unless they are maintained. Take the new Lakeslands to Boyne Valley greenway (Kingscourt to Navan). The railway line had only been out of use for about 20 years and large sections were impassible on foot due to tree and bush growth over that time. Yes there were railway tracks underneath all this overgrowth but the route had as much in common with a railway line as any random patch of hedgerow/field.

If the old railway line is anything remotely like the Kingscourt to Navan line it's not a railway line, it's just a bit of land owned by the state. To put a new line in place you are building a new railway line. At best you might save a bit of money on land. But even at that if you have any encroachment you are going to start incurring legal costs at a minimum and worst the state will have to buy land/compensate existing landowners. That's before you even talk about NIMBYs who may not want a train line running behind their houses/premises(the longer the line was out of use, the more opposition and the better case they have). At that stage why not look at new alignment if you are going to basically have to build a railway anyway.

Old railway lines were built for a specific settlement pattern in mind. Ireland is a very different country than a 100/150 years ago, just because a route was good in past doesn't mean it's good now.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906927#Comment_121906927

Fair play you gave me a good laugh there.

I never thought of moving the line away from the main centres of population in Mayo and Galway and all the extra expense and land owner opposition that would come with it. Genius.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907133#Comment_121907133

There's too many glib, trolling-like comments in here.

Cut it out everyone of warning etc are are coming your way.

-- moderator

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898364#Comment_121898364

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121899093#Comment_121899093

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898728#Comment_121898728

All of this really needs to stop.

-- moderator

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907133#Comment_121907133

This post ignores my point completely. The fact is unless a railway is maintained it's stops being a railway. The Kingscourt Navan railway only stopped being used in 2002ish relatively recently compared to some of the older a routes. Even at that the route was literally impassible even on foot in a lot of places due to the growth of trees, bushes and other plants. That's after only about 20 years of no upkeep. There was also encroachment as farmers and other landowners as they adjusted to the fact that a railway no longer went through or by their property. These old routes are no longer railway lines thanks to mother nature. For a Greenway to be built over a railway line a railway line needs to exist there in the first place.

My argument is not against railways it's to forget about railways built the guts of 200 years ago and build new railways. It's important to remember most Irish railways were built before cars and good quality roads. Never mind the technological advancements associated with railways since. Ireland was a very rural country. Settlement patterns have completely changed since the 1800s. I'd argue a lot of the issues with Irish railways stems from these limitations.

If you have to build a new railway line build it to suit the needs of the 2100s and the technological advancements that have happened since. A good example is high speed railway world wide which in most cases use completely new alignments.

So if you have to build a new build a new railway line which is basically being proposed for the Western Corridor why not build a modern purpose built one? instead of doing practically the exact same work and settle for an inferior alignment built in a completely different era and with different goals.

Look at our motorways one of the reasons they have been such a huge success is because they are purpose built even if they follow the same rough direction as older roads. Why not do the same with any new rail lines?

RonanG86

If having to deal with landowners and NIMBYs are obstacles with restoring an old rail line where the right of way and ownership of the land by Iarnróid Eireann still exist, at least on paper, (and I'm sure they are obstacles), surely dealing with landowners and NIMBYs on land that was never a railway is ten times worse? Especially if it runs in part through urban areas, which it will need to. Sticking a train station four miles outside a town partly defeats the purpose of a train station after all.

I don't see how a purpose built new route isn't going to be significantly more expensive, take longer and be subject to even more legal challenges than restoring an existing right of way to a functioning rail line. The new route would need to be a lot more efficient in terms of hitting population centers and physical limitations to be worth it, imo.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909473#Comment_121909473

My previous reponse was dismissive as I couldn't believe you think the line is gone past reuse. The route is still there and easier to reuse than come up with a new line. It's on land owned by Irish Rail. Its by and large a protected corridor and far less contestable than a new line through land that previously had no line.

Some bushes and trees are no obstacle to reinstating the track. You are clearly not familiar with the WRC line as it is not anything like the Kingscourt line in terms of degradation. Im not familiar with that line but it sounds almost completely gone by your description. If you look at many locations where roads and bridges cross the WRC line on street view it is easy to see that vegetation isn't much of a problem.

Also you said the only reason to stay on the existing line is to save a bit of money on land. This is not correct. The original line is on relatively level ground and has been engineered with appropriate cut and fill works carried out at the time. You will do well to find a new route that doesn't need a lot of excavation and fill works.

I mentioned that the existing line would link the main population centres Ballina, Castlebar, Westport, Ckaremorris and Tuam etc. I would like you to say where the new line should be? Even in general terms will do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909711#Comment_121909711

This is exactly the point I was making.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909893#Comment_121909893

The route from Tuam to Galway is where a re-alignment should be considered.

Follow close to the old N17 as far as Claregalway, with a large park-and-ride facility on the R381 just outside Claregalway.

Then continue towards Ballybrit where another new station would be located, and then follow around the outside of the ring-road to meet the mainline someone near Roscam.

Actually servicing the huge number of commuters that are destined for Ballybrit/Parkmore would make rail significantly more likely to attract meaningful passenger numbers, and servicing Claregalway with a large park-and-ride would have both a large hinterland as well as servicing areas where further population growth is likely as the city expands.

In terms of current condition, there's significant vegetation where the line crosses the N17 both outside of Milltown and outside of Ballindine - including trees growing up between sleepers.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6642847,-8.9537817,3a,75y,313.32h,93.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss0nmCTKDQV8A1-_qZt1Fiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6288661,-8.9263226,3a,37.6y,347h,86.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR_af8xBtVtx0ShI5zlTDtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912415#Comment_121912415

I expect it would be easier to move Boston Scientific, Medtronic and SAP than it would be to do that…

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912491#Comment_121912491

Quite possibly - but it still makes more sense than slavishly following a 1860s alignment purely to sate the wishes of spotters who want to see trains at Ballygluinin.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912596#Comment_121912596

https://www.dublinhistoricmaps.ie/maps/1940-1999/index.html

For anyone who is interested here is a link where you can overlay a map of Ireland from roughly 1910 onto a map of Ireland today. All urban area's are dramatically bigger and some have grown beyond all recognition.

Take Ashbourne for example on the 1910 map it was barely a village, now it's big enough to have a motorway built specifically to bypass it. There are countless similar examples. Most railways were built decades before this map. It's a very good demonstration of how settlement patterns have changed since the 1800s never mind the complete change in technology and wider economy.

The railways built in the 1800s were built for that era and even then there was cost cutting that's caused problems subsequently (IE the railway lines that curve along canals).

If you are going to build railways do what they did with the motorways and build them properly and don't stick to centuries old alignments. If the Western Corridor justifies a railway do it properly, it might take a bit more time but long term you end up with a vastly superior service.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912596#Comment_121912596

Not if it makes a 400m euro a project a multiple billion euro project.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912415#Comment_121912415

The amount of vegetation at those locations will prove to be no obstacle to getting the line back. The second location link you sent seems to be mostly briars rather than trees.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913675#Comment_121913675

Yes I can't see the line changing significantly due to the sheer cost.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913675#Comment_121913675

Clinging desperately to the old alignment simply results in a project that is unlikely to ever have a viable business case. The freight argument is a pure red herring and will never deliver the volumes that would make it viable, and the routing doesn't serve where the majority of potential passengers are commuting to in Galway.

A significantly higher up-front outlay would certainly result from a new alignment - but it brings the possibility of actually having a viable 20-year business case.

IMO there would be more value in doing a first-round feasibility study on what would an "ideal" alignment look like for 1) Tuam to Galway and 2) Castlebar to Galway, and then looking at potential high-level CBAs on that basis rather then desperately clutching at straws to try and justify the 1860s alignment.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913950#Comment_121913950

I would be extremely surprised if building a new alignment that instead hugs the N17 to serve Claregalway, would have a better CBA than simply reconstituting the existing alignment which already serves Castlebar and Tuam.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913950#Comment_121913950

You're suggesting spending several 100 million more to save about 12 or 13km of track, which would shave only 5-8 minutes off journey times, and serve Claregalway, a small town of only 1600 people. A new alignment is complete nonsense. If they ruled it out for Cork-Limerick, it's not going to work anywhere.

A Luas line through Galway serving industrial estates and connecting to a station in Roscam would make more sense than constructing a heavy rail line to serve the same purpose.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913950#Comment_121913950

It's got nothing to do with clinging to the old alignment. It's just being realistic that the government are not going to spend billions on 50km of track that's not between 2 cities. The existing line is the only option. One of the main reasons its been considered on the existing line is because its more straightforward to bring back than other lines. Arup and Eamon Ryan have said so.

Theres no evidence that a CBA will favour spending billions. It just simply isnt a runner.

Pete_Cavan

North of Ballindine, the old alignment starts west of the N17 before curving eastward and crossing the N17. It continues north-east and then curves back west and crosses the N17 again as it heads towards Claremorris.

A direct link between the sections west of the N17 would be shorter than the original route, be straighter and avoid two LCs with a National road. Such a route would pass mostly through forestry (which will be cut down eventually anyway) and pass close to fewer houses. That is the kind of thing which should be looked at in terms of improving the alignment.

The likes of WOT like to think that they are visionaries and that others just can't see what they can, it truth they lack vision beyond what was there a century ago.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914483#Comment_121914483

Except it’s not 50km, as has been painted out above its 12-13km of the alignment that would be changed.

However, it’s not just about shaving 5-10 minutes off the rail journey, it’s about shaving 25-30 minutes off the door to door journeys that commuters are currently doing in cars. A Claregalway park-and-ride becomes a realistic option for commuters as far away as Headford - taking traffic away from the road network around the city.

The old alignment doesn’t serve the right places to ever drive modal shift away from car commutes in any meaningful numbers. It’s being clung to because rail enthusiasts think it’s their best hope of seeing a “new” rail line - not because they think it will ever be realistically viable.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914883#Comment_121914883

Again there is no mention of moving off the old alignment. Arup have considered the options and favour the existing line. Any line to headford would be a separate project entirely and nothing to do wwith the WRC or what has been recommended. I'm just restating what the recommendations are. So it's not helpful to accuse anyone of desperately clutching at straws or clinging to lines.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915070#Comment_121915070

Arup had a specific remit, and were given specific steers in what to look at. Commuter rail into major cities was outside of their scope.

They even say it in their consultation documents:

The fingerprints of certain individuals from Irish Rail are also patently obvious in their report -there’s a flagrant effort at empire building by a few within Irish Rail (who have the ear of Eamon Ryan) and it’s very obvious that their views were given disproportionate weight by Arup

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915099#Comment_121915099

I prefer not to get into conspiracy theories about empire building or otherwise in Irish Rail.

I'd rather focus on reports, oireachtas updates and press releases.

blackwhite

As stated by their own publications - the Arup report specifically excluded commuter rail from its remit, which is the critical driver for any volumes on any alignment into Galway.

Ignoring that because spotters have an obsession about seeing trains running on the original Victorian alignments is blinkered, at best

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913667#Comment_121913667

Thank you for that historic maps link. It is absolutely fascinating.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915070#Comment_121915070

Can you provide some detail from AISRR where ARUP "considered the options and favour the existing line"?

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914609#Comment_121914609

Regarding the section between Ballindine and Claremorris, it might interest you to know that the train alignment follows almost exactly the original N17 road alignment - if you look on OSM, the original road followed what is now the L25116. A desperately windy twisty section of road.

I suspect that the reasoning behind both bad alignments was, like a lot of road and rail alignments in Ireland, that their lordships in the local estate (CastleMacGarrett) didn't want the road and rail going through their land (or visible from the house at any rate).

When the new N17 was built it dispensed (CPOd?) with that notion and cut straight through. A bit of forward planning might have done the same for the railway line. In fact it still could if we were serious about it.

Westernview

An interesting piece in this weeks Western People on the challenges facing the West of Ireland and the need to invest in both road and rail.

https://westernpeople.ie/opinion/roads-and-rail-both-are-needed-in-the-west_arid-14173.html

Westernview

Claremorris-Athenry line has been approved at European Parliament level for inclusion in the Ten-T network. Another important step in realising this project.

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/eu-boost-for-galway-port-and-athenry-claremorris-rail-line-projects/