Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

Hibernicis

Speaking during the launch of the revised NDP in Cork on Monday 4th October 2021, An Taoiseach Mícheál Martin stated that the Government would "enthusiastically" support expenditure for the Western Rail Corridor going forward. “I think you can be assured the Minister for Public Expenditure will support the Western Rail Corridor very enthusiastically,” 

Tanaiste and Fianna Fail Leader Micheal.

And here we are two and a half years later with not a single cent committed. Apart from the all important hedge trimming of course.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865357#Comment_121865357

So you think it should have been funded before it was approved?. Funding doesn't work that way. The AIRR report is at draft stage and required Stormont in place before moving to final report stage. Stormont has only recently reconvened.

serfboard

Is there any evidence that any of the rest of the line, outside of around Claremorris, is being cleared?

It's all very well for WOT to look out their windows in Claremorris and see line clearing, but the fact that there is a local election coming up, and this limited line clearing is being done, may not be entirely coincidental.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865406#Comment_121865406

It isn't planned. It isn't approved. It isn't funded. As of now it isn't anything other than as aspiration from a politician with an uncertain future.

Neither Stormont nor the AIRR remaining at draft stage are stopping anything from proceeding, and rail plans in the Republic don't and won't ever require Stormont approval. If there was a will to progress this project right now, neither of these would prevent it. The Minister could propose it, Government could approve it, Finance could provide the funds and the NTA and IE and whoever else could get on with it. Instead, they cut the hedge.

Anyway enough muppetry, time to move on from this rather pointless thread.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865867#Comment_121865867

Muppetry...charming. Well I won't lower myself to your name calling. The thread will be fine without you.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865985#Comment_121865985

I was referring to myself. I didn't call you anything. Stop looking for offence at every opportunity.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866070#Comment_121866070

Calling yourself a muppet? Ok then. 😄

loco_scolo

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/12/09/major-clearance-works-ongoing-on-old-mayo-railway-line/

https://www.seancanney.com/i-welcome-moves-by-minister-for-transport-to-clear-existing-railway-line-between-athenry-and-claremorris/

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/transport-minister-confirms-plans-to-clear-existing-rail-line-between-athenry-and-claremorris/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865503#Comment_121865503

The disbelief and denial from people is quite something. Works are underway to clear the line so that engineers can assess how much it will cost to reopen the line.

It would be reopened as freight to start. It has been submitted for funding from the EU's TEN-T programme, together with Rosslare-Waterford section.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863609#Comment_121863609

Once again, folk being irrationally sensitive about Irish Rail clearing a line. I get some people don't want anything done with this line however the vitriol that occurs when there is an question of looking at the viability of this railway is just so toxic.

StudentDad

I hope this line gets up and running. The sooner the better. I don't get the resistance to it. If it takes more cars off the road and provides an alternative to those who either can't afford a car or don't want to use a car. All the better. Yes, I know it'll be freight initially. We need more infrastructure, not less. Just have a look at the infrastructure projects across the rest of the EU and people complain and moan about re-opening a rail line.

What we should be doing is running a rail line to Knock airport and seriously ramping up the availability of flights at that airport. I live in Europe, why the hell can't I fly to the rest of Europe from there? It's easier to fly to the US than other parts of the EU from Knock!

Sorry, rant over.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866977#Comment_121866977

I was not being oversensitive, I was pouring ridicule on the notion that a bit of line clearance would enable a re-opening. It's not more than about 1% of what's needed for that.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867198#Comment_121867198

Why bother pouring ridicule though? You were doing the same on the cross border thread when someone posted a few photos and you said the WRC gets far too much attention. When the moderator suggested WRC comments stay on this thread one would think u got your way and wouldnt have to read furher comments on it. But yet here you are again on the WRC thread that you say you have no interest in.

The WRC is only a tiny percentage of the overall transport budget and will make a big difference to the west but its amazing the contempt it generates from people who don't want it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867198#Comment_121867198

How many times does it have to be repeated - the line clearance is to allow engineers on site to access the cost of reopening. It is a fact (you seem determined to ignore) that WRC and Rosslare-Waterford have been submitted for TENS-T EU funding.

These are significant developments.

The speedy progress on the 42km Foynes line is clear evidence of how quickly this work can progress. The Athenry to Claremorris section is similar in length and in a much better state of repair than Foynes.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867432#Comment_121867432

Apart from the current clearing works, WRC is less than a tiny percentage of the overall transport budget, it is 0%. It doesn't exist as a live project, it's not budgeted for in any plans. The AIRR puts the cost of reopening Athenry to Claremorris at €400 - 600m, that is not the kind of money which just gets pulled out of nowhere.

It really wouldn't make much difference to the west given the constraints of the lines either side to connects to. You might get a WRC train into Galway early in the morning which might suit some living in Tuam but journey time unlikely to be attractive from Claremorris. The main employers in Galway aren't accessible from Ceannt anyway.

The distance Athenry - Claremorris is about the same as Portarlington - Athlone, double-tracking the later would allow a big increase in trains between Dublin and the west. That would be of much more benefit to the west, both in terms of passengers and freight (it would allow access to our two ports which actually handle rail freight).

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867807#Comment_121867807

I've heard all your points before. Citing negative cost benefit analysis that doesn't exist etc. No offence but you have no idea what benefits this can bring. I defer to the opinions of major employers that want the WRC opened as a more efficient way of getting freight to ports. The AIRR has indicated that opening to Claremorris ia viable but no further north until deemed otherwise. The CE of irish rail himself has referenced this too. you seem to think you know otherwise despite not having any evidence. 400-600 million to link all the major towns of Galway and Mayo and beyond seems reasonable compared to the cost of road projects. Each train can carry up to 30 containers and take lorries odd the road. The EU has commented on the deficit of rail infrastructure in the northwest - we are near the bottom of the table. The double tracking you mention will be needed in other places but will cost far more than the WRC in terms of planning, land acquisition and construction. The WRC route line in contrast is intact and can be delivered much quicker.

Economics101

I hope that this won't be regarded as too much of a diversion, but why is there virtually no mention of much better rail links between Cork, Limerick and Waterford, and also links to towns like Clonmel, Tipperary and Cahir?. All for investments which are likely to be relatievly modest, and which would open up future freight connections to the West (which need to go somewhere outside the West).

You really have to put the WRC stuff in perspective with the rest of the rail system.

Says a lot about politicians in Munster, maybe. 😊

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868442#Comment_121868442

WRC has an alignment which is relatively preserved whereas most of the Cork alignments which have not been reinstated have been developed upon. Same is the case in Waterford and Limerick, aside from the ones which are already articulated by IE and in the AIRR to be reinstated I'd be the first one saying the West Cork line would be a fantastic one to bring back, but it functionally does not exist anymore, aside from a few bridges here and there. It also did not ever connect with what is currently Cork station.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867807#Comment_121867807

Absolutely. I whilst thinking WRC should be reinstated, also think that Portarlington/Athlone should be made more robust. I also think prior to the line being reinstated to Claremorris for passengers, they really need to double track into Galway City to get the absolute full use of the thing for a future commuter service. There is a degree of pot and kettle here, East Galway and South Mayo have horrendous development patterns for good high speed access, but it also functionally makes replacement with a bus service quite difficult also. If there is any hope for fixing the mistakes of the past and developing strong self sufficient communities with good access to jobs that aren't by a car, then rail is a way of selecting economic corridors for development.

It is far from ideal that if you live in the west and not in the village you work in, that you need a car to exist and take part in society.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867807#Comment_121867807

Same old misinformation peddled out every time without fail.

Capacity:

Oranmore passing loop will double capacity on the Galway-Athenry section and likely triple capacity, since this section is currently operating below capacity. Adding additional carriages to trains would increase capacity further. A commuter service from Tuam would enhance Athenry's service, not compete with it.

Cost:

The Foynes line is 42km long. It is currently under construction with a €104m contracted price. Athenry-Claremorris is 52km long, is in a better condition than Foynes and has existing stations at Athenry and Claremorris. Initially, just Tuam could be reopened with additional stations opened in future (Ballyglunin, Miltown, Ballindine).

The cost of building new stations is around €10m based on Pelletstown and Woodbrook stations in Dublin.

The AIRR budget is clearly overestimated. There is no way it would cost an additional €400m versus Foynes. This is the exact reason they are clearing the line to assess reinstatement costs, as they believe it can be done much cheaper than the AIRR suggests.

Journey Time:

Gort-Galway takes 50minutes including a change of direction at Athenry and stops at Craughwell and Ardrahan. The Athenry-Tuam line is extremely straight with only one potential intermediate stop and no requirement to change direction at Athenry. Less than 40 minutes Tuam-Galway easily achievable.

Claremorris-Galway in one hour and Westport-Galway in 1.5 hours achievable. These times easily compete with cars, especially in traffic.

Ceannt Station location:

Your suggestion that reopening WRC is unnecessary because Galway's main employers are not in the city centre is extremely weak. Galway is choking with traffic and plagued by urban sprawl. These are the exact reasons the train network should be invested in. The same poor argument could be made about any city in Ireland.

L1011

Foynes is being rebuilt to freight standards - trying to use its costs for reopening a passenger line is deliberate misrepresentation.

So much WRC stuff relies on trying to claim that official figures are wrong; but using either misrepresentation or pure invention as the basis for that claim. Figures from reports have far more validity than figures from railfans heads, no matter how much people may want the latter to be considered as valid.

The attempted takedown of the last report in to WRC reopening is particularly comical - fantasy maths from start to finish, trying to latch to every perceived error in the official, EU checked report and just making stuff up to fill in gaps.

Athenry-Claremorris will only reopen - for freight - due to a large committed freight customer or political interference. Passengers beyond Tuam is fantasy.

Burma Road reopening is also fantasy; and the false hope given to people in the North West of Sligo to Letterkenny/Derry - where there isn't even a previous alignment to use, because there was never any connection North of Sligo - is bordering on abusive of peoples hopes.#

If you gave any transport planner five times the cost - capex, rolling stock and opex - of reopening the Burma Road, and asked them what they could do for public transport in the area - they would not suggest reopening the railway.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868619#Comment_121868619

Foynes works are are very extensive. Full list below, which are all included in the €104m contracted price. Can you suggest where an additional €400m might be required to add passenger services?

• Vegetation clearance and removal of existing track; replacement of the track formation and laying a new ballast bed to modern IÉ standards

• Rehabilitation and renewal of bridges and culverts; laying new rail and concrete sleepers along the entire route; renewal of road infrastructure at public road level crossings and repair of accommodation crossings; and repair of lineside fencing.

• Installing a signalling system on the route; installation of CCTV at level crossings; introduction of train communications system; and upgrades at Limerick and Foynes yard.

We're discussing Athenry-Claremorris here. No mention of Sligo, Letterkenny or Burma road. Why bring this up?

Tuam is Galway's largest town so I'm glad you've acknowledged passengers to Tuam is realistic. Westport and Galway are two of the busiest tourist destinations in Ireland, so passengers north of Tuam is not fantasy. Not to mention the thousands and thousands of students who study in Galway city. Or people who work there.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868609#Comment_121868609

Your claims that the Oranmore passing loop will double capacity on the Galway-Athenry section were dismissed previously. You need to be able to prove it for that claim to be valid.

€104m is the cost for civil works only on Limerick - Foynes. The signalling system, LCs, etc. are all to be installed later under a separate contract at additional cost. Limerick - Foynes was in use for some years after Athenry - Claremorris so your claim that the later was in better condition is just that - your claim. It isn't actually true.

It's also funny how the AIRR is defended to the hilt when people point out what it is (merely a speculative projection of what the rail network could look like at some undefined point in the future if many billions were invested) but when the cost estimated doesn’t suit you, it is "clearly overestimated".

Tuam is a small town and regular travellers into Galway city would be small, most jobs are outside the city centre, that's a fact.

Claremorris-Galway in one hour and Westport-Galway in 1.5 hours are unlikely without significant other investment. Again, numbers making those journeys regularly would be small. Regardless, those journey times are not attractive for commuters and not worth running a train which needs high occupancy to be viable (particularly after €0.5m+ investment).

A train service from Tuam isn't going to make a difference to Galway being choking with traffic and plagued by urban sprawl. The solution to Galway's traffic problems is a proper, efficient bus network which would serve far more people than trains north of Athenry, be rolled out faster and at a fraction of the cost.

Westernview

And to think that people still persist with the idea that passengers won't want to get a train from Claremorris to Galway as it would be 'too slow'

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868569#Comment_121868569

I was talking about the existing but sparsely used line from Limerick Junction to Waterford, which has significant potential in terms of freight and much more frequent and faster passenger services, but which is sorely neglected. The line is operational and virtually all CWR, but has a stupidly low linespeed of 50 mph, and is riddled with even lower speeds near level crossings.

For heaven's sake do the easy things first and maximise the potential of existing assets.

I never remotely considered the old Cork-Waterford link via Fermoy, hence my references to Clonmel, Tipperary, and Cahir.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869214#Comment_121869214

Capacity:

My point on Oranmore passing loop is factually accurate, and has only been dismissed by comments such as yours. It isn't rocket science, it's basic facts.

Fact is, it takes 20minutes on a single alignment from Galway to Athenry, which means maximum capacity of 1.5 trains per hour per direction. However the line is currently used by only 1tpdph. Adding a 3km passing loop in the middle will allow 1 train every 20minutes, or 3 tphpd (double). Hitting this maximum capacity will be significantly easier given the shorter sections of single alignment and reduced potential for knock-on delays. Adding additional carriages to trains will add additional capacity.

Comparison to Foynes:

Foynes line was operated a few years later than WRC, however the difference is that WRC was kept in a good state of repair driven by groups like West on Track who ensured the line was periodically cleared, Foynes was not. More facts.

The government have stated they believe the line can be reopened with similar costs to Foynes and significantly cheaper than AIRR suggested. This is the reason they are clearing the line now - to assess those costs. Another fact.

Journey Time:

Not sure where you're getting your numbers. They are wrong.

The comical EY Report assumed 20 minutes waiting time at Athenry to travel between Tuam and Galway. It assumed 30 minutes travel time between Tuam and Athenry (50kph speed) despite assuming the line would be brought to 140kph standard. In total, they assumed 70 minutes journey time via rail when it is would be 35-40minutes in reality.

Tuam-Claremorris is the same distance as Athenry-Tuam, but the alignment is worse with conflicts, so 25minutes achievable. It currently takes 30minutes from Claremorris-Westport, so Galway-Westport is obviously possible in 1.5hrs. More basic facts.

Your anti-WRC obsession is quite something, refuting basic facts and not providing any meaningful information to back up your argument.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869382#Comment_121869382

The things you assert to be facts are anything but. It's a 1km passing loop, as confirmed in the Dáil, so your tripling of capacity is not accurate. 1km double track on a 20km section isn't going to give a huge increase in capacity, double-tracking will be needed for a meaningful level of service from the Tuam branch. There are many considerations which will determine capacity. West of Athenry you basically have 3 different lines sharing the same track.

WOT pulling a few weeds wont have made any difference to the cost of reopening the line, you are really clutching at straws here. A major scope of works is still required; upgrade of trackbed, new ballast, new drainage, retaining walls where necessary, rehabilitation and/or replacement of bridges, installation of new rails and sleepers, all new signaling and communications systems, creating compliant LCs, etc. In addition, you have the extra cost for passenger services, multiple LCs on a busy N road, new stations and track connections at both ends which don't apply to Foynes - Limerick.

Your journey times estimates are very oversimplified. Maybe under perfect conditions, those times might be possible but in reality, there are several other considerations which will impact journey times. It needs to achieve good journey times at the time people want to be travelling, which will be the same time as high demand for the other services using the line. Athenry with be a constraint given the various movements which would be required there and the LC at the station.

Even with an hour journey time, the number of people looking to travel between Claremorris and Galway city centre will be very small. Add 10 minutes either side of each station (entirely reasonable given the small population close to Claremorris station and the limited employment immediately at Ceannt Station) that's a 1 hour 20 minute commute. That isn't going to be attractive for many people. You'd need every working person in Claremorris making that journey regularly to justify the train service.

StudentDad

What was it someone said to me me years ago, what was it? Something about not being able to write a letter for want of a stamp ....

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870752#Comment_121870752

Your usual incomplete analysis. The train service won't be dependent on Claremorris only. Passengers will also be coming through Claremorris from Ballina, Westport and Castlebar. And what has been said so many times before the line opening will be because of freight. Once its open for freight it will be relatively easy to follow on with passengers. Without freight it won't open. You know this of course but choose to ignore facts ti make a false argument.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870752#Comment_121870752

So do you accept my point on journey time? It's outrageous EY assumed 20minutes connection time at Athenry and 50kmh speed between Athenry-Tuam. That report is fundamentally flawed and doesn't stand up to basic reasoning.

Athenry desperately needs additional peak time services, there's no reason these services can't start in Tuam as they would also serve Athenry. You insist these services would compete with each other, which makes absolutely no sense.

Almost all of those works you outlined are included in the Foynes list of works. The aim of the current clearance on WRC is to assess the costs, so we should know soon enough.

I'm wrong on the length of the passing loop, but it doesn't change the basic math. I'm at a complete loss as to why you don't accept this. Increased capacity is the reason they add passing loops. A 21km section of single alignment will be split into two smaller sections, which will obviously increase capacity. It also minimises risk of knock-on delays, which allows the line to operate closer to maximum capacity.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871114#Comment_121871114

There isn't going to be significant numbers of people travelling regularly from Ballina, Westport and Castlebar to Galway city. You are looking at approx. 2 hour journey time with even short travel to/from the stations either end. Listing towns further out is meaningless, they are too far for commuting.

Freight and passengers combined have to justify the €0.5bn capital cost. We would almost certainly get more freight and passengers by investing that money elsewhere in the network. The west would benefit more from investing in Portarlington - Athlone.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873597#Comment_121873597

You said the line wouldn't be justified unless every working person in Claremorris used it. That is clearly nonsense as line opening is based on freight. You seem to think you can keep saying things that aren't true and that it's somehow credible. Nobody said opening the line was based on Claremorris passengers except you.

Again I have to point out that you have no figures or information on how the west would benefit more from investment elsewhere - similar to your previous invisible CBA analysis. Any improvements in the line to Dublin will obviously help the west as will opening the WRC. You have absolutely no information on a comparison of one versus the other so there's no point pretending otherwise.

Businesses want the line opened and the Arup AIRR report says its viable. You just saying you think otherwise with no information to present has no credibility.