Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

Geuze

I am trying to find the PP for Ceannt station.

I see PP no. 1418, but that doesn't show five platforms.

I suspect that is an older, earlier application?

Geuze

I can see one new platform, to make three overall.

I can't see the 4th and 5th platforms?

What am I missing?

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883052#Comment_121883052

So based on the 1975 travel times you mentioned between Athenry and Claremorris,

(Athenry - Tuam: 23 mins) + (3min stop at Tuam say )+ (Tuam - Claremorris: 24 mins) = 50 mins total

Compared with a current car travel time of 45 minutes thats not bad.

Then allowing for the likely improvements in modern rail travel times that you also mentioned and frequent traffic congestion/parking issues for the remainder of the trip to Galway it seems to be an attractive option for passengers from Claremorris and Tuam heading to Galway.

Claremorris to Galway direct by car is just over an hour without hold-ups. Could the rail line come close to matching this? If not I'd imagine it would during peak traffic times at the very least.

All the above based of course on having the extra Ceannt platforms and Oranmore passing loops in place - which they should be before too long.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883461#Comment_121883461

Sorry - the 1975 times included the stop time at Tuam - 47 mins overall.

A standard station stop is only 1 or 2 mins these days, unless the train is crossing another one at a loop on a single line, in which case one of the trains would have a longer 4-6 minute wait to allow for delays.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883108#Comment_121883108

The point being raised is simply that capacity does exist on the line, and certainly will exist after Oranmore and Ceannt upgrades. Trains could be coming from Westport/Tuam, say.

As for available stock, obviously this is important but we're not talking about new routes today or tomorrow. At a minimum 5 years away and given nothing has started on WRC (other than vegetation clearance), it's v.likely longer. At that stage, new Dart and IC train will have delivered, which will free up trains used in the Dublin area.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883052#Comment_121883052

Thanks for your post, extremely helpful.

What is the reason for such a long delay between 2 trains running in the same direction? The main issue to avoid is trains rear-ending each other. Surely that can be avoided without such a long interval between 2 departing trains? Seems like overkill to limit capacity in that way....

Or is it specifically related to the long section of single alignment? Though I still struggle to understand the reasoning.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884420#Comment_121884420

In the very early days of rail travel, they did use some sort of time interval to separate one train following another. For obvious reasone this was unsafe: what if a train breaks down in mid-dection? Given modern train speeds, the risks would be crazy. The basic idea of separating track into block sections and an absolute rule that only one train can be in a section at any time is more or less universally accepted as an integral part of rail safety.

You could I suppose divide Athenry-Galway into 3 sections and have closer separation, but this would be of limited use as it does nothing in terms of trains in the opposite direction.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884420#Comment_121884420

The railway works on absolute safety rules.

You can only have one train in each signal section at any one time - otherwise what’s to stop a train crashing into another train that has broken down?

On single track lines the sections are separated by passing loops or split signals.

There are three signal sections between Galway and Athenry as I listed in the post above:

Galway Station - Galway Loop

Galway Loop - Split signal east of Oranmore

Split signal to Athenry

Only one train can be each of those sections at any one time.

The longest section is the split signal to Athenry which is 7.5 mins long hence there must be at least 8 mins between trains.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884708#Comment_121884708

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884486#Comment_121884486

Okay great thanks for explaining. I didn't understand what a split signal was.

I assumed the trains would have the ability to communicate breakdowns to each other, without having 10minute gaps between trains. It's not 1850 like!! But fully appreciate the safety requirement.

One would think a few additional traffic lights could be installed at minimal cost...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884791#Comment_121884791

I’ve edited my post above to add some more info.

Resignalling is anything but cheap. It’s a lot more complex than you seem to think.

The split signal was added a few years ago to allow two trains follow one another.

The next step would be a loop.

As I say safety is the absolute priority and that beats everything else. That means one train and one train only in each signal section.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883052#Comment_121883052

So any future services on the Tuam branch would have to be scheduled in around the other services (Dublin-Galway & v.v and Limerick-Galway & v.v, plus any additional commuter services which might be provided thanks to the Oranmore loop) as the trains to/from Tuam would have the most flexibility in terms of not interacting with trains elsewhere.

They would essentially have to take whatever arrival and departure slots they can get at Ceannt, regardless of how appealing they might be.

At Athenry, they should look at moving the station west of the LC and adding a third platform for trains to/from Limerick.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885266#Comment_121885266

What you're describing is the basic scheduling process for any railway. It's not any more complicated than that.

There would still be multiple paths available, and if the line gets doubled subsequently then even more paths will arise.

I wouldn't be negative about it.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882477#Comment_121882477

I said "The AIRR puts the cost of reopening Athenry to Claremorris at €400 - 600m", which it does, it's there in black and white, so that was a factually accurate statement. I acknowledge that it seems very high but without a breakdown, we don't know what is included. It's still the figure ARUP decided to put in the report, regardless of what you or I think of it.

To my above comment, you replied "The AIRR has indicated that opening to Claremorris ia viable". You then later said "Businesses want the line opened and the Arup AIRR report says its viable". Do you have anything to support these claims?

And yes, from reading the report I consider it to be rubbish. As I said ages ago, a full Business Case will have to be prepared anyway which would answer questions regarding cost and viability.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885451#Comment_121885451

Yes the 400-600m is in the report. We all know its in the report, no one said they werent. And you chose to quote those exact figures to argue that the line would cost too much. You actually did do that. Now you are trying to distance yourself from the same figures saying they may be too high. Why mention them to argue a point and then say they are unreliable? Ridiculous carry on at this stage.

If the detailed CBA is all that matters and the AIRR is rubbish then dont quote preliminary AIRR estimates to make a comment on value. You are all over the shop with what you say is reliable and unreliable information.

The AIRR quotes I listed yesterday clearly show that Arup believes the line is a viable option and important to freight movement in the West. Conversely it rules out north of claremorris as unviable at this stage. Regarding business I previously put links up before on Baxter representatives stating that they want the WRC opened. You can easily google them to find them.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885573#Comment_121885573

I am happy to completely disregard AISRR but equally the report shouldn't be used in support of Athenry - Claremorris. You are unhappy for me to quote from the report but you relying on something which the report doesn't actually say!

The fact remains that the €400-600m is in the report, where are the figures/text to back up the viability of reopening Athenry - Claremorris?

I honestly can't see what quotes you provided from AISRR, can you give again?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895573#Comment_121895573

The AIRR doesn't detail individual projects and benefits. It concludes the overall benefit of all projects is positive, but highlights individual projects taken as a standalone may not be positive.

Claremorris-Cooloney was not included since it doesn't benefit the overall BCR of the wider network, where Athenry-Claremorris does, given it is identified as strategic in the context of freight (taking pressure off Dublin and the east).

This is the reason it's been submitted for TENS-T funding, together with Rosslare-Waterford.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895573#Comment_121895573

Nope never said I was unhappy for you to quote from the report. I never said anything against it. I only asked for consistency. Quoting figures from the report and saying the report is garbage is inconsistent.

And you are doing it yet again in the lastest comment - quoting the figures to argue the line is not viable and at the same time saying you're happy to disregard the AISRR

I think its obvious at this stage that you have no interest in a constructive debate and you are just interested in stirring up pointless arguments with people here and you are effectively just trolling the thread.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897200#Comment_121897200

You have said "The AIRR has indicated that opening to Claremorris ia viable" and "Businesses want the line opened and the Arup AIRR report says its viable", yet haven't provided anything to support these claims.

You are claiming reopening Athenry - Claremorris should/could happen on the basis of something the AISRR doesn't actually say. That can't be considered constructive debate.

Like I said, I'd be perfectly happy to disregard AISRR entirely and pretend it doesn't exist. It may as well not, for Athenry - Claremorris to become a live project, an acceptable Business Case would have to be prepared and be approved through the relevant process. That won't be done on the basis of the cost estimate in AISRR, a proper assessment of both costs and benefits will be required. The fact remains that it isn't part of any current capital plans so whatever the cost (certain to be a nine figure sum), it isn't currently allowed for for many years. These are facts and certainly not stirring up pointless arguments.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897867#Comment_121897867

Round and round the merry-go-round.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898364#Comment_121898364

It was a cause of great concern that there were no posts on this thread for two whole days, and comes as a great relief that the utterly pointless merry go round continues to spin.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898728#Comment_121898728

Ah yes...here you are back again after you stormed off a few days ago saying you had enough of the thread. Seems you can't make up your mind what you want.

Economics101

I'm almost amused about all the passionate argument on the WRC north of Athenry. Especially when the busy Ennis-Limerick section is once again to close probably for several weeks due to flodding.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/limerick-to-ennis-line-to-close-due-to-flooding-fr

So much for ambitious expansion plans, when they can't sort out basic problems with the existing infrastructure.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121902296#Comment_121902296

Gas! I'm totally amused by the irrational reasoning people throw out to dismiss this line. Sure let's just cancel all Dart expansion plans until they fix the issues on Dart Coastal, sure it was closed last week due to wave overtopping....

By that logic we should just cancel absolutely everything in the world until something else 70km away is made perfect. 😂

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121902793#Comment_121902793

All I was doing was drawing attention to the failure to address outstanding problems with the busiest section of the WRC. Don't construe that as a dismissal of the more northern sections of the WRC.

Your hypersensitivity on this issue is revealing.

Consonata

When we start actually building railways again and costs begin to come down, it will likely make sense to rebuild Athenry/Claremorris again. Certainly as part of a wider Galway Commuter Rail project it makes sense. There are projects which obviously should be done first, such as improving the Portarlington section, and double tracking to Oranmore.

However as alignments go, Athenry/Claremorris is pretty good, and certainly should be protected. That IÉ is clearing it and asserting its ownership over the alignment cannot be seen as a bad thing. If we want to improve density around centres like railways and their access to economic centres, improving alignments like Athenry/Claremorris makes sense.

loco_scolo

https://clareherald.com/news/transport/flooding-closes-ennis-limerick-rail-line-at-ballycar/

Decent article here on the flooding issue. It's basically a turlough... drainage is very poor so once it fills up, it'll stay high for months. I'm not clear if it's 100% natural turlough, or one made worse due to human activity (probably the latter).

They raised the line 60cm in 2003, but it wasn't enough. The recommendation in 2020 was to improve drainage so the water level simply doesn't get that high.

It's very poor they haven't fixed it, but hardly surprising.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898364#Comment_121898364

At least the chain has come off the eternal bicycle.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904868#Comment_121904868

I'm a fan of greenways but not on rail lines.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904134#Comment_121904134

Isn't a large part of the flooding problem because the Board of Works, TII, Irish Rail and Clare Co Council can't agree on who should pay for the necessary flood relief works?

Don't we have Cabinet Ministers to get together and solve issues like this? Truly pathetic.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905247#Comment_121905247

I guess it isn't priority since it only floods every couple of years. The last bad flooding event occurred in 2015/16. I expect the latest flooding will pressure an agreement to be reached on funding, which was estimated at €16m in 2020.

Given they are spending €100m+ on Foynes and pushing the freight angle hard (submitting for TENS-T funding etc.), the government will struggle to justify not solving this issue.

Will be interesting to see what happens - will they put more money where their mouth is?...