Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Shurimgreat

gctest50 wrote: »

All outstanding reasons why women in Ireland need access to terminations without travelling on a plane or boat

I'm not convinced. Maybe I will be proven wrong, then happy days if so.

But as I said I remain to be convinced and the years ahead will tell us much.

gctest50

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm not convinced. Maybe I will be proven wrong, then happy days if so.

.

As long as your happy that's all that matters sure

Fighting Tao

Shurimgreat wrote: »

This post had numerous thanks at lunchtime.
I look again and they are all gone.
Odd.

If I was posting for thanks then I wouldn't be posting because I get SFA.

Sofiztikated

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Not ignoring you cupcake. Numerous posters to respond to. When I respond to a few, there is always one or two others who says "why are you ignoring me?". So it was nothing personal.


I doubt he will sleep tonight haha.


I think you will agree that just as no two pregnancies are the same, no two abortion scenarios are the same re the mother or the baby. The mother may have a medical condition such as diabetes, high blood pressure, or others. Taking two pills may not be the answer and it becomes a case of surgery.

Some women if they do take the two pills will react differently to others.


There's the potential for botched surgery where the abortion is not completed effectively. There is the risk of sepsis in many cases.


There is the prescribing of medicines afterwards.

There are I think you will agree numerous different scenarios at play, often complex ones.

And we don't have the experience for it here.

Its not enough to have the occasional doctor here or there with experience. The whole thing has to be properly coordinated and lead by experts and operated by dedicated experts. Recruitment I can see being a problem. They are struggling with recruitment and training in the UK according to the report I posted. I can't see it being different here.

If mass provision of abortion is provided I want it open and transparent with all the stats published at the end of the year to see how we are progressing and also proper oversight.

As for putting people on ignore, only as a last resort. I'm also getting tired of the Happy Clappy, I love abortion types as are most of the country. Time to move on from that nonsense.

I don't know why you think abortion services are some bleeding edge technology, that no one in the country knows anything about.

Maternity services are trained in a variety of areas, and while abortions are currently rare in the country, some have taken place, and are similar to procedures carried out for those carried out to assist with difficult miscarriages.

And for those untrained or unfamiliar with the processes, how else do you expect them to learn?

Overheal

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The UK has 50 years experience in providing abortion services.
They perform close to 190,000 a year.
Many are performed at clinics such as Marie Stopes.
These are run by professionals in the field with decades and decades of experience.
More importantly the abortion services industry is highly regulated with significant oversight.

And yet despite all this, there are many problems with the industry in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783694/Nearly-400-botched-abortions-two-months-Marie-Stopes.html

So you think we are going to hit the ground running over here, what with our record of abysmal healthcare and laughable oversight. You only have to look at the recent cervical check scandal to see how transparency and oversight is handled.

So by all means run with abortion here.

If my partner ever required an abortion in extreme circumstances such as FFA I would still be heading to the UK to get it carried out. I wouldn't trust the Irish healthcare system or grossly incompetent politicians like Harris and Varadkar who are still ducking and diving when it comes to dealing with the women of the cervical checking scandal.

Shur, now that the campaign is over its time to stop pretending "Ireland is one of the best healthcare systems in the world to have a baby in!" Or that you're actually Pro-Life. :rolleyes:

Overheal

Shurimgreat wrote: »

FFS grow up. I responded to Cupcake.

*Tao points out your evasion*

...

*Shur finally responds to cupcake*

*Jesus come off it I already responded to her!*

:rolleyes:

Overheal

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think you will agree that just as no two pregnancies are the same, no two abortion scenarios are the same re the mother or the baby. The mother may have a medical condition such as diabetes, high blood pressure, or others. Taking two pills may not be the answer and it becomes a case of surgery.

Some women if they do take the two pills will react differently to others.

There's the potential for botched surgery where the abortion is not completed effectively. There is the risk of sepsis in many cases.

There is the prescribing of medicines afterwards.

There are I think you will agree numerous different scenarios at play, often complex ones.

And we don't have the experience for it here.

Its not enough to have the occasional doctor here or there with experience. The whole thing has to be properly coordinated and lead by experts and operated by dedicated experts. Recruitment I can see being a problem. They are struggling with recruitment and training in the UK according to the report I posted. I can't see it being different here.

If mass provision of abortion is provided I want it open and transparent with all the stats published at the end of the year to see how we are progressing and also proper oversight.

Your personal incredulity about how the healthcare system operates and stays up to date on changes in medicine, law and practice doesn't dismiss the reality that while it will of course take a couple years to fully implement and firmly establish this does not negate the requirement abortion facilities and practices. So what if your purpose, exactly, for regurgitated these arguments about "a shur its too complicated" exactly? That Ireland should just never bother? Cancer treatment is hard and complicated too and has a very mixed success rate, should Ireland just say fcuk it?

Fighting Tao

Overheal wrote: »

Your personal incredulity about how the healthcare system operates and stays up to date on changes in medicine, law and practice doesn't dismiss the reality that while it will of course take a couple years to fully implement and firmly establish this does not negate the requirement abortion facilities and practices. So what if your purpose, exactly, for regurgitated these arguments about "a shur its too complicated" exactly? That Ireland should just never bother? Cancer treatment is hard and complicated too and has a very mixed success rate, should Ireland just say fcuk it?

That's what I've been getting at.

Cabaal

Trasna1 wrote: »

In a democracy the losing side is still allowed to protest the result.

Would you tell anti Trump or anti Brexit campaigners to shut up too? They lost as well, are they sore losers too? Should they just get over it?

Or are you so politically immature that you only call the side you don't agree with sore losers?

Trump did not win the popular vote.

Brexit was won barely with a compaign of lies, scaremongering and misinformation.... Same as no side tried here.

Not the best examples for you to give.

8th was repealed by a landslide, one of the largest if not THE largest ref turn out and votes in favour.

Shurimgreat

Overheal wrote: »

*Tao points out your evasion*

...

*Shur finally responds to cupcake*

*Jesus come off it I already responded to her!*

:rolleyes:

When you come up with the lie of the century like this is it any wonder No siders don't bother?

No side stands up for themselves on here and calls out lies - No sider gets infractions.

A Yes sider can post a massive like like Overheal and try to stir sh*t and nothing is done about it. No sider will probably get the infraction instead.

Any wonder the thread has gone to pot?

spookwoman

Link to podcast of the bishop of Waterford and Lismore
Yes voters “should examine their conscience and they should talk to the priest, they should go to confession”. and Cullinan said the Yes vote means euthanasia is essentially now accepted in Ireland.

https://soundcloud.com/wlrfmwaterford/bishop-alphonsis-cullinin-tells-eamon-that-john-halligan-excluded-himself-from-his-godsons-confirmation

gctest50

[Cullinan] has chosen certain statistics and repackaged them in a way to suit his particular narrative. His miscommunication of information in this way puts the health and lives of women in Ireland at risk. This is unacceptable for a person in his position.

.


http://www.thejournal.ie/hov-bishop-factcheck-3620053-Sep2017/

Overheal

Shurimgreat wrote: »

When you come up with the lie of the century like this is it any wonder No siders don't bother?

No side stands up for themselves on here and calls out lies - No sider gets infractions.

A Yes sider can post a massive like like Overheal and try to stir sh*t and nothing is done about it. No sider will probably get the infraction instead.

Any wonder the thread has gone to pot?

No it’s all there: that is the order of posts and/or replies in that altercation. However all I can say is I honored you think that was the lie of the century, and not you know, thousands of other more atrocious lies from any number of US administrations, political campaigns, celebrities even. I feel like I’ve surpassed Kanye now. Or at least that footballer who said he totally didn’t knock his wife/girlfriend out cold on that elevator.

Overheal

spookwoman wrote: »

Link to podcast of the bishop of Waterford and Lismore
Yes voters “should examine their conscience and they should talk to the priest, they should go to confession”. and Cullinan said the Yes vote means euthanasia is essentially now accepted in Ireland.

https://soundcloud.com/wlrfmwaterford/bishop-alphonsis-cullinin-tells-eamon-that-john-halligan-excluded-himself-from-his-godsons-confirmation

He should be careful talking like that, the electorate will take his flippant remarks to heart and just go ahead and get euthanasia legislated!

_Dara_

One week on, I still can’t quite believe that sense prevailed so dramatically!

Achasanai

Shadowstrife wrote: »

A few reasons why Donegal voted No by a very tiny margin.

I thought Donegal voted Yes, but that the south-west part - that would have been more prone to voting Yes - was in a different constituency?


On this, is there a better breakdown of results than just constituency? Like polling station, electoral area?

Graces7

Cabaal wrote: »

Trump did not win the popular vote.

Brexit was won barely with a compaign of lies, scaremongering and misinformation.... Same as no side tried here.

Not the best examples for you to give.

8th was repealed by a landslide, one of the largest if not THE largest ref turn out and votes in favour.

Nah... that would have meant maybe a 85-15 vote. Exaggeration comes of insecurity and mendacity does not impress, quite the opposite.

_Dara_

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah... that would have meant maybe a 85-15 vote. Exaggeration comes of insecurity and mendacity does not impress, quite the opposite.

It depends on your definition. 2-1 is considered a supermajority by some definitions. Who cares - it was emphatic.

dudara

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah... that would have meant maybe a 85-15 vote. Exaggeration comes of insecurity and mendacity does not impress, quite the opposite.

However you want to describe it, or not describe it, it was a far greater majority than I had hoped for. I had thought and expected a 55-45 vote. To end up with 2-1 was quite frankly amazing, and in parts it was even 80-20 or greater.

It’s time to move on now and focus on the legislation. I personally have no doubt that anti-choice campaigners will continue to lobby strongly. Their mandate has clearly been shown to be less than I thought, but they will still be a strong voice. The discussion should listen to all sides, but not be subject to excessive fillibusting or time wasting.

In other news, I’m finally glad to see the end of all the referendum posters, from both the Yes and No sides. What an eyesore they were.

Cupcake_Crisis

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah... that would have meant maybe a 85-15 vote. Exaggeration comes of insecurity and mendacity does not impress, quite the opposite.

It was a landslide, a 2:1 landslide. As high as 77-78% in some constituencies. A landslide is the most accurate way to describe it.

spookwoman

Oh FFS they cannot just accept they lost.
Councillors for No stand firm despite row over all-male photo. 'When that photo was taken – it wasn’t a criminal offence to be a man. The reaction told a story to me'
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/councillors-for-no-stand-firm-despite-row-over-all-male-photo-1.3516546

It wasnt me123

spookwoman wrote: »

Oh FFS they cannot just accept they lost.
Councillors for No stand firm despite row over all-male photo. 'When that photo was taken – it wasn’t a criminal offence to be a man. The reaction told a story to me'
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/councillors-for-no-stand-firm-despite-row-over-all-male-photo-1.3516546

Well the electorate in Waterford need to note these no sayers and if they don't agree with them, vote them out.

By the way describing them as middle aged was very polite IMO!

They are fossils and out of step with the majority of Waterford and the rest of Ireland. The trouble with TDs / Councillors voting with their conscience is that they probably weren't voted in because of their conscience, they were voted in probably on party lines and/or a local issue. I personally don't care what their personal views are, though they are quite at liberty to state them, I want them to think of the good for the majority and vote accordingly.

Its a shame that more women don't get involved in local / party politics. I'm too old but it would be great if younger women got more involved. Give a balance to politics in Ireland.

JRant

dudara wrote: »

However you want to describe it, or not describe it, it was a far greater majority than I had hoped for. I had thought and expected a 55-45 vote. To end up with 2-1 was quite frankly amazing, and in parts it was even 80-20 or greater.

It’s time to move on now and focus on the legislation. I personally have no doubt that anti-choice campaigners will continue to lobby strongly. Their mandate has clearly been shown to be less than I thought, but they will still be a strong voice. The discussion should listen to all sides, but not be subject to excessive fillibusting or time wasting.

In other news, I’m finally glad to see the end of all the referendum posters, from both the Yes and No sides. What an eyesore they were.

If only, my area is still littered with posters. Mainly No posters as well from what I can see.

The hard work starts now really. I think people forget that there is a minority government in place so any legislation proposed will be a real battle ground in the Dail. As we well know, promises in politics are about as reliable as a Dublin bus timetable. I would much rather see a robust piece of legislation brought in than trying to rush this through before the summer recess. There will be challenges to it so we need an airtight bill that stands up to scrutiny.

There will also be a huge body of work required to set up these services and everything that goes with it. Whether that's GP training, specialised clinics, nurses, doctors, surgeons etc. The financing of all these will need to be finalised as well. We could be looking at somewhere between 3 to 5 years before we have a fully functional service up and running.

JRant

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Well the electorate in Waterford need to note these no sayers and if they don't agree with them, vote them out.

By the way describing them as middle aged was very polite IMO!

They are fossils and out of step with the majority of Waterford and the rest of Ireland. The trouble with TDs / Councillors voting with their conscience is that they probably weren't voted in because of their conscience, they were voted in probably on party lines and/or a local issue. I personally don't care what their personal views are, though they are quite at liberty to state them, I want them to think of the good for the majority and vote accordingly.

Its a shame that more women don't get involved in local / party politics. I'm too old but it would be great if younger women got more involved. Give a balance to politics in Ireland.

It's a shame more competent people don't get involved in politics to be honest. There's probably only a handful of competent TD's in the Dail. We have too many Mattie McGrath, Healy-Rea, Lowry, types and not enough Catherine Murphy, Stephen Donnellys.

Loafing Oaf

JRant wrote: »

The hard work starts now really. I think people forget that there is a minority government in place so any legislation proposed will be a real battle ground in the Dail.

I wouldn't worry about that. If you thought the referendum result was a landslide wait till you see the majority in favour of the legislation in the Dail. I'd be surprised if there were more than 20 Nos...

retro:electro

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah... that would have meant maybe a 85-15 vote. Exaggeration comes of insecurity and mendacity does not impress, quite the opposite.

A sore loser is shunned by all, but everyone loves a winner

Philippians 2:3 ”Do nothing from rivalry and conceit, but in humility and loss count others more significant than yourselves”

We can all play the bible game hun.

JRant

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about that. If you thought the referendum result was a landslide wait till you see the majority in favour of the legislation in the Dail. I'd be surprised if there were more than 20 Nos...

I would be more concerned with FF or FG TD's voting against it. They would lose the whip and it could very well collapse the existing government. The Shinners and the "free everything" brigade will vote for the legislation but I would be concerned of a huge rift in the minority parties causing the whole thing to be delayed.

Unfortunately politics in Ireland is anything but straight forward.

Wanderer78

retro:electro wrote:

A sore loser is shunned by all, but everyone loves a winner

My fear with this campaign is the fact, those that voted no maybe now made feel excluded in our society, we must remember that 'exclusion and shame' was thrust onto those that had to leave this country for termination, let us not thrust the same on to those no voters, we must accept their beliefs, and include them into our society

Loafing Oaf

JRant wrote: »

I would be more concerned with FF or FG TD's voting against it. They would lose the whip and it could very well collapse the existing government. The Shinners and the "free everything" brigade will vote for the legislation but I would be concerned of a huge rift in the minority parties causing the whole thing to be delayed.

Unfortunately politics in Ireland is anything but straight forward.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fianna-fail-tds-urge-party-whip-on-abortion-471303.html

Even TDs, like John McGuinness, who voted no, told the Irish Examiner that colleagues must listen to the will of the electorate.

Sligo-Leitrim TD Marc MacSharry, who did not support repeal, confirmed he will unequivocally support the legislation.

Okay they won't end up enforcing the whip, and there will almost certainly be a few FF no votes, but all the noises from within the party indicate there will be overwhelming support for the legislation from FF TDs.

Fighting Tao

Wanderer78 wrote: »

My fear with this campaign is the fact, those that voted no maybe now made feel excluded in our society, we must remember that 'exclusion and shame' was thrust onto those that had to leave this country for termination, let us not thrust the same on to those no voters, we must accept their beliefs, and include them into our society

By repealing the repeal?