The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

ArmaniJeanss

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i would agree with you if there was a follow to work out where that point should be

but the question on the ballot paper will be along the lines of do you want abortions up to 12 weeks for any reason or no you dont.
therer are only 2 options. one i completely disagree with and one i most agree with but think is a little to restrictive.

That's not the question on the ballot paper.

Its 'remove the 8th amendment, allow the Oireachtas to legislate. Y/N'.
12 weeks is not being put into the constitution.
That's why I think Yes is marginally best for what you've outlined in your earlier post.

Guy:Incognito

Jaylee Glamorous Sirloin wrote: »

If debate was allowed in the press, this question could maybe be addressed. I see viability (which is 23weeks) and 2 doctors agreeing
and mental health all in the proposed legislation.

This to me is a problem with repeal.

There are debates . But how do you debate when one side it calling people murderers. Putting posters up saying things like licence to kill? ( sure its not an accusation if you stick a question make in) . I've seen very few people defending the type of ads they use in America like asking people say, " what would you think if I said candidate A was a pedophole" . There's no evidence of any wrongdoing by candidate A , no victims accusing anyone of anything, but now it's in the person's head. It's dirty tricks.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th. Any legislations that comes after has to be debated and passed on the daily. By the politicians everyone elects to run the country and make decisions on laws. It's not a referendum to bring in anything the government' proposes first thing monday morning. . The government don't even have a majority. It could be a long time before any laws are made or changed.

Ash.J.Williams

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Ive told everyone including herself that I'll vote yes, but really I'm voting no. It's just not worth the argument.

Yes I'm a man and won't be ever getting pregnant, but that'll be our baby's killed in the womb too. Many men probably won't even know they had a child aborted

Jaysus...

zell12

Simon undecided Coveney currently on SkyNews live from Tullamore.
Very unsure-sounding

Ash.J.Williams

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Ive told everyone including herself that I'll vote yes, but really I'm voting no. It's just not worth the argument.

Yes I'm a man and won't be ever getting pregnant, but that'll be our baby's killed in the womb too. Many men probably won't even know they had a child aborted

Jaysus... You're not a big fan of women

the_pen_turner

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That's not the question on the ballot paper.

Its 'remove the 8th amendment, allow the Oireachtas to legislate. Y/N'.
12 weeks is not being put into the constitution.
That's why I think Yes is marginally best for what you've outlined in your earlier post.

sorry your right about that.
iv heard too many people talking about it. its kind of blurred it a bit.

but the 12 weeks is what thy were reconmended to allow it too. they can down the line allow longer if they wish

Fr Tod Umptious

the_pen_turner wrote: »

sorry your right about that.
iv heard too many people talking about it. its kind of blurred it a bit.

but the 12 weeks is what thy were reconmended to allow it too. they can down the line allow longer if they wish

And equally a government may restrict abortion alltogether.

listermint

the_pen_turner wrote: »

sorry your right about that.
iv heard too many people talking about it. its kind of blurred it a bit.

but the 12 weeks is what thy were reconmended to allow it too. they can down the line allow longer if they wish

And the volume of women that would do that is?



I think there is a large lack of respect for the women in your life if that's what you think they would do should it be on offer.

It's almost as if some folks believe women really make such decisions with ease . On a whim .

the_pen_turner

listermint wrote: »

Seems you haven't found a compatible partner then if that's the case.tbh.


There's more than a lack of trust there. Same for the fella that told his partner he would vote yes and then vote no.

What's the point of such a relationship if you can't agree on its fundamentals. Trust... Communication

my GF is very firmly in the NO side. for lots of reasons . she is probably more no than me.

but the facts are that if she decides to go for an abortion then there is nothing i can do . i know she could go to england but this would make it a lot easier and a lot easier to hide and organise.

trusting someone doesnt mean that they wont do something you trusted them no to do. look at how many people cheat

the_pen_turner

listermint wrote: »

And the volume of women that would do that is?



I think there is a large lack of respect for the women in your life if that's what you think they would do should it be on offer.

It's almost as if some folks believe women really make such decisions with ease . On a whim .

i dont think most people do it on a whim. i would hope that it would be a huge internal struggle to decide that


what about respecting the father of the child , or the child itself

the_pen_turner

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

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And equally a government may restrict abortion alltogether.

thats true i suppose. but very unlikely. there would be all kinds of protests if they tried to do that.

better to restrict it now

Fr Tod Umptious

the_pen_turner wrote: »

thats true i suppose. but very unlikely. there would be all kinds of protests if they tried to do that.

better to restrict it now

I'm not talking today or tomorrow but sometime in the furture, the country, actually the whole western world, could swing conservative and things like abortion could be totally restricted.

Happyilylost

listermint wrote:

Seems you haven't found a compatible partner then if that's the case.tbh.

listermint wrote:

There's more than a lack of trust there. Same for the fella that told his partner he would vote yes and then vote no.

listermint wrote:

What's the point of such a relationship if you can't agree on its fundamentals. Trust... Communication

Second answer that is deflection rather than discussing the issue. Something I've found throughout this campaign when it comes to the "man" or "dad" in this decision.

ArmaniJeanss

the_pen_turner wrote: »

sorry your right about that.
iv heard too many people talking about it. its kind of blurred it a bit.

but the 12 weeks is what thy were reconmended to allow it too. they can down the line allow longer if they wish

Yep, the 8th would be gone so the ffa/rape/medical treatment issues that you are concerned about would be sorted.

You are right that the government could theoretically legislate for even longer-term abortion, but there's no real chance of that happening imo - it hasn't happened in any of the other countries that have legislated in the last 20 years. There appears to be a consensus out there in Europe that 12 is the very max. Ultimately you & I get to choose a government roughly every 3 years in this country, so I doubt they are ever going to do anything extreme in this issue.

As I said, whilst its in many ways Yes is difficult for you, I think its the better option for what you've laid out. A No vote means none of the things you want for another generation. Up to you obviously. Good luck in what you decide.

listermint

Happyilylost wrote: »

Second answer that is deflection rather than discussing the issue. Something I've found throughout this campaign when it comes to the "man" or "dad" in this decision.

Lol, if you can't talk to your partner why are you together.

If you cant see that communication is integral to a relationship I won't waste any more time educating you.


Cracking stuff though this morning

listermint

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i dont think most people do it on a whim. i would hope that it would be a huge internal struggle to decide that


what about respecting the father of the child , or the child itself

What child ?

Happyilylost

listermint wrote:

Lol, if you can't talk to your partner why are you together.

listermint wrote:

If you cant see that communication is integral to a relationship I won't waste any more time educating you.

listermint wrote:

Cracking stuff though this morning

Educating me on what exactly? It's an issue that no one wants to discuss. I'm sure for this a complete rarity that will ever happen. I'm simply asking will it be able to happen if there is a no vote? It if helps you be less defensive I will be voting yes. I believe current legislation needs to be changed. But I won't say I do not have concerns about the outcome of a yes vote.

[Deleted User]

I'll be voting yes. I think it's the most sensible thing (I agree with the general line of thinking that I shouldn't be making other people's decisions for them).


I do wonder the side effects of it though, in a few decades when it becomes the norm.

I'd hope that a yes vote will perhaps slow down the population a little bit, when it becomes more accepted to have abortions. The world as a whole seems to be knackered in general and a reduction in population wouldn't do any harm.

Then you have the fear that with a yes vote; that the only people that would avail of abortion are the ones sensible enough to realise they don't have the financial means or ability to take care of a child. But the ones that rely on the state for the extra few euro, or who take pride in getting up the housing lists, etc. would probably not avail of it.

Meaning in 20-30 years you will have a whole shift in the country in terms of what kind of people are hanging around (and it seems grim). According to a quick google search, Ireland was founded n 1937. 80 years in and we still haven't got a functioning policing or judicial system. Add in all the babies from decent backgrounds being aborted and you're looking at a rough little country I reckon.

Be interesting to see this country in 50 years time.

Anyway, thats enough of my rambling

listermint

Happyilylost wrote: »

Educating me on what exactly? It's an issue that no one wants to discuss. I'm sure for this a complete rarity that will ever happen. I'm simply asking will it be able to happen if there is a no vote? It if helps you be less defensive I will be voting yes. I believe current legislation needs to be changed. But I won't say I do not have concerns about the outcome of a yes vote.

It happens today women can literally go abroad if they want your no won't stop that. Pretending it will is idiotic.

All your no vote will do today is harm women who needs assistance here on this island.it stops doctors legally assisting women can and have died


I value the women in my life too much to let that continue.


That's the nuts and bolts of it.

the_pen_turner

listermint wrote: »

What child ?

thats the crux of the issue. when do you believe a pregnancy becomes a child.

listermint

the_pen_turner wrote: »

thats the crux of the issue. when do you believe a pregnancy becomes a child.

None of my business. Im interested only in keeping the women in my life safe and out of harm's way.

That's my sole motivation for a yes vote.

the_pen_turner

listermint wrote: »

None of my business. Im interested only in keeping the women in my life safe and out of harm's way.

That's my sole motivation for a yes vote.

how does the impact on mental health fit into that .

there was a woman on the radion last week talking about how having an abortion lead to her severe depression . im sure it leads to it in a lot of women that had abortions

listermint

the_pen_turner wrote: »

how does the impact on mental health fit into that .

there was a woman on the radion last week talking about how having an abortion lead to her severe depression . im sure it leads to it in a lot of women that had abortions

I'm sure that happens for some , for others I'd doesn't.
But how do you square depression with death. You can't treat death.

For me , I'm sure others would agree I'd prefer that person to be alive so if depression arose we could tackle it together.

I guess that may sound fantastical to some.

oscarBravo

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there was a woman on the radion last week talking about how having an abortion lead to her severe depression . im sure it leads to it in a lot of women that had abortions

I'm sure it does - as does giving birth.

There's something horribly paternalistic about arguing that we should prevent people from having abortions in order to avoid the possibility that they'll regret them. And that's leaving aside the fact that we're not even talking about preventing abortions; we're talking about keeping them difficult, expensive and/or risky to access.

Guy:Incognito

Happyilylost wrote: »

. But I won't say I do not have concerns about the outcome of a yes vote.

But see this is the bones of it. You can still continue living you're life exactly as before in accordance with the choices you make for yourself.

People need not be concerned about the choices of others that don't affect them.

Guy:Incognito

the_pen_turner wrote: »

how does the impact on mental health fit into that .

there was a woman on the radion last week talking about how having an abortion lead to her severe depression . im sure it leads to it in a lot of women that had abortions

There's lots of things you could do that could lead you to suffering from depression . Should I make those decisions for you?

Franz Von Peppercorn

lawred2 wrote: »

How does it ignore the other party?

If they don't want abortions they are free to make that decision to not have abortions..

The fetus, embryo etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn

listermint wrote: »

None of my business. Im interested only in keeping the women in my life safe and out of harm's way.

That's my sole motivation for a yes vote.

So you are in favour of any abortion at any term for any reason?

This is in fact the problem with the yes vote. It’s run by wombats and people who dismiss genuine concerns of people like me who are generally ok with abortion to 12 weeks. The get your hands of my uterus or the pseudo libertarian position are worthless answers to this.

Here’s a reasonable YES poster, Vote Yes for 12 weeks and when a woman’s life is in danger.

nw1dqsv7amx026

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

So you are in favour of any abortion at any term for any reason?

This is in fact the problem with the yes vote. It’s run by wombats and people who dismiss genuine concerns of people like me who are generally ok with abortion to 12 weeks. The get your hands of my uterus or the pseudo libertarian position are worthless answers to this.

Here’s a reasonable YES poster, Vote Yes for 12 weeks and when a woman’s life is in danger.

Yes I could live with this. But it seems to be a lot more like the UK laws.
Any chance of getting back to the original question?

beeno67

listermint wrote: »

None of my business. Im interested only in keeping the women in my life safe and out of harm's way.

That's my sole motivation for a yes vote.

If that is your sole motivation it makes no sense. Women don't die for the lack of an abortion.
If you have no other reason to vote yes then it makes no sense.