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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

  • 19-05-2018 11:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭


    One noticeable thing about the opinion polls leading into the last few weeks of this referendum is the remaining large number of don't knows. Without getting too technical, it appears to this observer that the swing that occurred towards the No side in the last few weeks came from straight Yes's to Nos, rather than shrinking the undecideds.

    So why are there so many undecideds? I think maybe there are two answers here:

    1) Possibly there are some who have secretly made up their mind but don't wish to talk about it. Maybe some poor guy in a house full of aggressive feminists who wants to vote No would prefer not to say so, and of course in some parts of the country it could work the other way too.

    2) Its obvious that there is a massive media bias towards Yes and this has been played out over the months leading to the vote, if not years. But in the last few weeks we have had some debates where both sides had equal time, and its clear too that some newspapers, like The Irish Times, have felt the need to be more balanced in their coverage over the last few weeks than they normally are.

    This has possibly led to a pattern that some were sure they were Yes, based on the earlier biased information they had received, and are now not so sure when they now can hear from the other side.

    So that also might be swelling the undecideds. Anyway I am sure there are strong opinions on the subject on this site but in any case it might be interesting to see what information both sides are putting out to influence the undecideds. This for example is an appeal to them from the No side: http://www.politics.ie/forum/elections/263893-manifesto-undecideds.html and if anybody knows of a comparable text from the Yes side maybe they could note it below.

    http://www.orwellianireland.com



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Comments

  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    brianhere wrote: »
    Its obvious that there is a massive media bias towards Yes...

    That's not at all obvious to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's not at all obvious to me.

    Irrespective of your opinions on the actual referendum, how can you not see a bias in the media? Check any day and there will be at least 5 articles sympathetic to repeal and maybe one token article against.
    Its really shocking to me, the lack of balance.

    As to this post, I've been wondering the same. I haven't come across a single person who volunteers an opinion for no. I suspect people are afraid to venture this opinion.
    I suspect the undecided may actually have decided and don't want to say.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 168 ✭✭dublinbuster


    brianhere wrote: »
    One noticeable thing about the opinion polls leading into the last few weeks of this referendum is the remaining large number of don't knows.

    they are NO voters!
    the media has pushed a yes vote HARD
    the silent majority think differently
    juts tonight i had yes campaigners call to the door, i smiled agreed with them and sent them on the way, dont need the aggro
    i will be voting no


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's not at all obvious to me.
    Biases are obvious. They're always the opposite of what one wants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    I don't have a uterus so I'm grand, unless it's possible that I get pregnant.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭Snotty


    Media are hugely bias towards a "Yes" and I am getting very sick of it and not just on this topic, it's being spoke down to every topic with their liberal agenda. The media used to have an ethical code of presenting both sides and then just an editorial that may have given opinion, every piece now is an editorial.

    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Snotty wrote:
    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign. I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.


    Just a question but will yourself ever experience a crisis pregnancy? Do you want a stranger deciding the laws applicable to your body. Vote how you want but but don't pretend to fight with you conscience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    Snotty wrote: »
    Media are hugely bias towards a "Yes" and I am getting very sick of it and not just on this topic, it's being spoke down to every topic with their liberal agenda. The media used to have an ethical code of presenting both sides and then just an editorial that may have given opinion, every piece now is an editorial.

    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.

    Please for the love of god don't vote no just because youre fed up with the yes campaign and want to stick it to them. You're a grown man.

    You have the choice to vote yes or no. I believe if you are on the fence then you should afford that choice to others and get it passed. Someday your wife may thank you.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,073 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Nonsense deleted. Serious discussion only please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,998 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    There are so many undecided because it's such a grey area.

    Personally speaking I hate the idea of abortion, it's repulsive to me.
    I hate left leaning politics and politicans so to vote Yes I'd be agreeing with the likes of Coppenger and SF.

    But at the same time, do I have the right to decide what happens to each and every pregnancy in this country by outright banning abortion ?

    If a daughter of mine, and I have two, found themselves in a cricis pregnancy what would I do, what would be best for them ?

    I'm totally undecided.

    But nationally I think there will be a swing to the No close to the end, enough to win I'm not sure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,157 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I haven't seen the opinion polls this morning so I don't know what they are showing but if anything, I have seen a solidifying of the YES vote in the last week.

    The antics of the pro-life audience on the Claire Byrne show have opened people's eyes to the nature of the NO campaign. The whooping and hollering everytime their person scored a point was deeply disturbing, as if they were watching a football match rather than a public debate over a serious issue. It was as if the issue itself meant nothing, just the win or lose.

    This was still resonating with people even yesterday in discussions. The strident tones and hard language have exposed the lack of empathy for what is a deeply complicated situation that many women find themselves in. I now expect the YES vote to be over 55% next weekend, and possibly hitting 60%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,414 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Snotty wrote: »
    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    .

    I can’t imagine what you think of the NO arguments then as most of them are complete lies and proven so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,998 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Both sides by the way think the outer side are the ones with the lies and the dirty tricks, and the antics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,770 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Irrespective of your opinions on the actual referendum, how can you not see a bias in the media? Check any day and there will be at least 5 articles sympathetic to repeal and maybe one token article against.
    Its really shocking to me, the lack of balance.

    As to this post, I've been wondering the same. I haven't come across a single person who volunteers an opinion for no. I suspect people are afraid to venture this opinion.
    I suspect the undecided may actually have decided and don't want to say.


    Thats me. I can't be arsed debating on the street or doorstep so I agree with both sides there.
    I do know however where my X is going next week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭marvin80



    If a daughter of mine, and I have two, found themselves in a cricis pregnancy what would I do, what would be best for them ?

    Women across Ireland find themselves in this situation everyday and at the moment they cannot get the medical help required in Ireland - they should have the choice available to them in Ireland.

    Regarding the undecided it's not surprising to see big numbers - it's such an important and emotional referendum and there's a lot of information coming out from both sides.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,998 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    marvin80 wrote: »
    Women across Ireland find themselves in this situation everyday and at the moment they cannot get the medical help required in Ireland - they should have the choice available to them in Ireland.

    Regarding the undecided it's not surprising to see big numbers - it's such an important and emotional referendum and there's a lot of information coming out from both sides.

    Thanks, but I'm not here to get canvased by any side.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    In the unlikely event that the NO vote wins, it would only in any case be a matter of time before the 8th was overturned either by the European court of Human Rights, by changes in the demographic of the population or the Church being involved in yet more scandal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,770 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    In the unlikely event that the NO vote wins, it would only in any case be a matter of time before the 8th was overturned either by the European court of Human Rights, by changes in the demographic of the population or the Church being involved in yet more scandal.


    Covering all bets now by the looks of things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,264 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Snotty wrote: »
    Media are hugely bias towards a "Yes" and I am getting very sick of it and not just on this topic, it's being spoke down to every topic with their liberal agenda. The media used to have an ethical code of presenting both sides and then just an editorial that may have given opinion, every piece now is an editorial.

    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.

    It's 'de liburul meeja' single transferable post

    There was no era of balanced journalism. That's a fallacy. Media outlets were always a mouthpiece for an owner's agenda or a group's agenda.

    Out of interest, when was this era where this ethical code of presenting both sides that you seem to think existed?

    I'd like to see examples of such balance from Ireland's earlier abortion referenda!


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,264 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Noo wrote: »
    Snotty wrote: »
    Media are hugely bias towards a "Yes" and I am getting very sick of it and not just on this topic, it's being spoke down to every topic with their liberal agenda. The media used to have an ethical code of presenting both sides and then just an editorial that may have given opinion, every piece now is an editorial.

    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.

    Please for the love of god don't vote no just because youre fed up with the yes campaign and want to stick it to them. You're a grown man.

    You have the choice to vote yes or no. I believe if you are on the fence then you should afford that choice to others and get it passed. Someday your wife may thank you.

    My backside was that person ever a yes voter. That's a well overused trope.

    I was an x voter but y and y's behaviour has convinced me to vote the other way..

    Bulls!!t


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Snotty wrote: »
    Media are hugely bias towards a "Yes" and I am getting very sick of it and not just on this topic, it's being spoke down to every topic with their liberal agenda. The media used to have an ethical code of presenting both sides and then just an editorial that may have given opinion, every piece now is an editorial.

    I would have been in the yes camp but not I'm not so sure. I'm not saying the debates have swayed me, but some of the yes arguments are terrible and there's almost a "vote yes because we say so, that's why" feel to their campaign.
    I honestly think neither answer is right and that might mean a No vote from me, but my wife is pushing the debate to me, so I'll digest on it more.

    Its becoming like Orwell's 1984. If you are anyway conservative, its seen as bigotry. Have you watched tubridy ramp up the liberal propaganda week in week out? There's also an anti male agenda. I wonder who is driving this. I personally think there's a plot to turn men into weak betas, in order to have more control on the populace. It is not natural for men to be bashed constantly as being 'wrong' about everything. Women on the other hand can do no wrong, and are considered shrinking violence.
    My philosophy is very simple, what the government wants, vote or think the exact opposite is in your interest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    I don't believe there are anywhere near 20% undecided. 5% possibly.
    By this stage almost everyone knows how they will vote.
    They could have ran the referendum 2 weeks ago and everyone knew in their own mind how they would vote.
    As another poster noted, to avoid argument and upset people just say "I haven't decided yet" .


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,581 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    lufties wrote: »
    Its becoming like Orwell's 1984. If you are anyway conservative, its seen as bigotry. Have you watched tubridy ramp up the liberal propaganda week in week out? There's also an anti male agenda. I wonder who is driving this. I personally think there's a plot to turn men into weak betas, in order to have more control on the populace. It is not natural for men to be bashed constantly as being 'wrong' about everything. Women on the other hand can do no wrong, and are considered shrinking violence.
    My philosophy is very simple, what the government wants, vote or think the exact opposite is in your interest.

    Hilarious.

    You've managed to hit all the ridiculous points in one paragraph about pretty much any subject that is raised today's .

    Liberals.

    Media.

    Bias.

    Anti men.



    Grow up will ya. Some people are too precious ,everyone else well they are just getting on with her daily lives. The biggest problem we have today is we now get to hear the precious folks opinions all the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,264 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    There are so many undecided because it's such a grey area.

    Personally speaking I hate the idea of abortion, it's repulsive to me.
    I hate left leaning politics and politicans so to vote Yes I'd be agreeing with the likes of Coppenger and SF.

    But at the same time, do I have the right to decide what happens to each and every pregnancy in this country by outright banning abortion ?

    If a daughter of mine, and I have two, found themselves in a cricis pregnancy what would I do, what would be best for them ?

    I'm totally undecided.

    But nationally I think there will be a swing to the No close to the end, enough to win I'm not sure.

    I dislike what abortion is and indeed I find that some of the justifications for abortion leave a very sour taste in my mouth. But it is not for me to pass judgement on what someone else sees at their time of need as something they have to do.

    I have three lovely children born in a loving marriage at a time for the both of us where we were financially sound enough to provide for them.

    Not every child is so lucky.

    In fact, my wife is in the Rotunda with our third right now. She's not yet 72 hours old.

    But every day I walk through those doors of the hospital through a pall of smoke expelled by expectant mothers. It's only one snapshot of the life that's in store for many of those kids.. can't imagine that that's the only way that those kids will be left down by their parents.. One would wonder how precious life is to some people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    listermint wrote: »
    lufties wrote: »
    Its becoming like Orwell's 1984. If you are anyway conservative, its seen as bigotry. Have you watched tubridy ramp up the liberal propaganda week in week out? There's also an anti male agenda. I wonder who is driving this. I personally think there's a plot to turn men into weak betas, in order to have more control on the populace. It is not natural for men to be bashed constantly as being 'wrong' about everything. Women on the other hand can do no wrong, and are considered shrinking violence.
    My philosophy is very simple, what the government wants, vote or think the exact opposite is in your interest.

    Hilarious.

    You've managed to hit all the ridiculous points in one paragraph about pretty much any subject that is raised today's .

    Liberals.

    Media.

    Bias.

    Anti men.



    Grow up will ya. Some people are too precious ,everyone else well they are just getting on with her daily lives. The biggest problem we have today is we now get to hear the precious folks opinions all the time.
    listermint wrote: »
    lufties wrote: »
    Its becoming like Orwell's 1984. If you are anyway conservative, its seen as bigotry. Have you watched tubridy ramp up the liberal propaganda week in week out? There's also an anti male agenda. I wonder who is driving this. I personally think there's a plot to turn men into weak betas, in order to have more control on the populace. It is not natural for men to be bashed constantly as being 'wrong' about everything. Women on the other hand can do no wrong, and are considered shrinking violence.
    My philosophy is very simple, what the government wants, vote or think the exact opposite is in your interest.

    Hilarious.

    You've managed to hit all the ridiculous points in one paragraph about pretty much any subject that is raised today's .

    Liberals.

    Media.

    Bias.

    Anti men.



    Grow up will ya. Some people are too precious ,everyone else well they are just getting on with her daily lives. The biggest problem we have today is we now get to hear the precious folks opinions all the time.
    Thank you for proving my point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,264 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    I don't believe there are anywhere near 20% undecided. 5% possibly.
    By this stage almost everyone knows how they will vote.
    They could have ran the referendum 2 weeks ago and everyone knew in their own mind how they would vote.
    As another poster noted, to avoid argument and upset people just say "I haven't decided yet" .

    They are in the main no voters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Blazer wrote: »
    I can’t imagine what you think of the NO arguments then as most of them are complete lies and proven so.

    I can't see how anyone could seriously come out and say the yes side have pushed them to no with their opinions. Unless they've completely blanked out the whole no side, because there's clear and obvious evidence as to whixh side is using a dirty campaign. You're an evil murderer, look at these pictures, dirty sluts etc , you're going to hell vs women are suffering, give them the option to do what they believe is best for their cicumstances, of which you don't know and are not involved.



    Personally I can't understand why people would want to insert themselves in the life decisions of people they don't know and I'd be fairly sure in different circumstances they wouldn't appreciate their choices being dictated by others either. It boils down to a simple, let people decide what's best for the situation they find themselves in. No grey area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    I can't see how anyone could seriously come out and say the yes side have pushed them to no with their opinions. Unless they've completely blanked out the whole no side, because there's clear and obvious evidence as to whixh side is using a dirty campaign. You're an evil murderer, look at these pictures, dirty sluts etc , you're going to hell vs women are suffering, give them the option to do what they believe is best for their cicumstances, of which you don't know and are not involved.



    Personally I can't understand why people would want to insert themselves in the life decisions of people they don't know and I'd be fairly sure in different circumstances they wouldn't appreciate their choices being dictated by others either. It boils down to a simple, let people decide what's best for the situation they find themselves in. No grey area.


    A very high percentages of laws are about dictating what other people can do and where, from drug laws to licensing laws, prostitution laws, smoking laws, drink driving laws and on and on.

    That’s not a very good argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    lufties wrote: »
    .
    My philosophy is very simple, what the government wants, vote or think the exact opposite is in your interest.

    The government were out there by getting the required votes from the people.

    What happens if the politicians you vote for become the government? You're automatically now against them? If you're gay, you'd have voted no in the marriage equality referendum presumably? There's a phrase for that.............


    And in this case it's basically "**** how it'll affect actual people's lives, at least I didn't agree with the government" that's ridiculous and a big advertisement for why us needing to have a referendum to do anything g of note in this country is harming people.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Blazer wrote: »
    I can’t imagine what you think of the NO arguments then as most of them are complete lies and proven so.

    I can't see how anyone could seriously come out and say the yes side have pushed them to no with their opinions. Unless they've completely blanked out the whole no side, because there's clear and obvious evidence as to whixh side is using a dirty campaign. You're an evil murderer, look at these pictures, dirty sluts etc , you're going to hell vs women are suffering, give them the option to do what they believe is best for their cicumstances, of which you don't know and are not involved.



    Personally I can't understand why people would want to insert themselves in the life decisions of people they don't know and I'd be fairly sure in different circumstances they wouldn't appreciate their choices being dictated by others either. It boils down to a simple, let people decide what's best for the situation they find themselves in. No grey area.
    Ever read the journal.ie? I used to think it was an actual news site years ago. They publish 4 or 5 yes articles a day. A recent one was about 'toxic masculinity'. The bias and outright agenda promoting is something Stalins Russia would have been proud of.
    In fact I'll bet in other rags like the independent, and Irish times its the same crap.


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