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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

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    #62
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    Before the establishment of the Citizens Assembly, I'd expect that most people would have supported repeal on the basis of FFA, rape and incest. Maybe 60-70%.

    Then the 12 week limit came out of left field. Some voters would worry that it's a stepping stone to 24 weeks or 'up to birth'. They could vote No and suggest that it's back to the drawing board.

    With respect to media bias, Trump and Brexit were knee-jerk reactions to the smugness of the established media.... aka aren't you so backward? The kind of people who support social issues like drug clinics and social housing, just as long as it isn't in their area or affect their house prices.


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    #63
    Happyilylost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭Happyilylost


    Guy:Incognito wrote:
    It's like the marriage equality referendum. When you drill down, there's no reason to oppose it, if it passes , your life stay the same. Whether you are the biggest homophobe in the world, 2 people you don't know of the same sex being married has no bearing on your life. This has been borne out by the complete lack of any of the scaremongering coming true and the whole host of "issues" people had being completely forgotten once evidemce proved them wrong. There's no forced same sex marriage, same as there's no forced abortions, so it comes down to allowing people to make their own choices for their circumstances and not using your vote to put them throuhh unessecary suffering.


    This argument is no where near black and white as the marriage referendum. Trying to make out that their the same doesn't help your argument.


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    #64
    blondeonblonde
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭blondeonblonde


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    There's a large unfortunate bunch of people who would be happy for abortion in cases of rape and FFA, however do not want the liberal abortion regime being proposed in this referendum. We are unfortunately left with no option but to vote no and tell the government go back to the drawing board.

    Equally the yes vote is being rammed down our throats which has resulted in a lot of silent no voters

    Yes but it is impossible to just legislate for the so called hard cases.

    How could you legislate for rape? It would have to be proved first. If recent court cases have taught us anything it's that rape is very difficult to prove. In the meantime, even if it could be proven then the abortion would most likely end up being much later term which nobody wants to see.

    The original 8th amendment was heavily criticised when it was being inserted in the constitution and we are simply seeing the effects of it now.


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    #65
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Thats kust casting aside all the women that need or feel an abortion is best for them at the time.

    Why would you want to dictate what's best for these women that you don't know ( and ones you do know but worn tell you)

    because i believe its a child and that the life of the child is more imprtant than the mothers opinion on it.

    to me the mothers life is most imprtant (medicallly speaking)
    then the childs life
    then other non medical aspects of the mothers life


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    #66
    nw1dqsv7amx026
    Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    blondeonblonde wrote: »

    I saw an interesting No poster recently underneath which was listed a website link to abortionnever.ie and it really made me angry because it is such a blinkered view point.

    But then you go on do give another blinkered view point??
    Do you not see the irony?


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    #67
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Jimbob1977 wrote:
    Then the 12 week limit came out of left field. Some voters would worry that it's a stepping stone to 24 weeks or 'up to birth'. They could vote No and suggest that it's back to the drawing board.
    No woman discovers she's pregnant the minute after conception.

    Depending on birth control, regular cycle, medication, a woman may be 7 or 8 weeks pregnant before she realises it. So 12 weeks isn't really the window of time people think it is.

    The 12 week window allows for the cases of rape or abuse. How else would you allow these victims to access terminations?

    A Yes vote means the amendment is repealed and we can change legislation depending on the needs of the people.

    A No vote means nothing changes.
    Irish abortions will still happen. Women will continue to suffer.

    It has taken 35 years for this referendum to come around again.

    I can't afford to wait another 35 years to 'go back to the drawing board'.


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    #68
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Happyilylost wrote: »
    This argument is no where near black and white as the marriage referendum. Trying to make out that their the same doesn't help your argument.

    It all boils down to letting people make this own decisions about what they want and what's best for them.

    And it's relevant because there was all the scaremongering beforehand that never came true and from what I've seen , none of the vocal opposers have come out and talked about all ****e they spouted . They know they can just say what they want and never have to justify it, then move on to the next thing and people just forget about it.

    And it is a black and white issue imo. You don't want to have anything g to do with abortions? Grand, choose not to.there will be no forced abortions.


    The late term stuff is another red herring too.its said, answered ( as I've done in this thread) then not brought up again for a couple of hours when a heap of posts have been made about other stuff in the hope any proper answers are buried.



    "But what about late term abortions" ?

    " there's no evidence for it happening outside of ffa " " women don't just decide to abort for no reason at 8 months" " there's no provision in any kawmor proposals for it"
    Silence

    Numerous other posts



    " But what about late term abortions"


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    #69
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    There's a large unfortunate bunch of people who would be happy for abortion in cases of rape and FFA, however do not want the liberal abortion regime being proposed in this referendum.
    I'm still waiting for someone to explain the logic behind allowing abortion in the case of rape.

    The argument against a "liberal abortion regime" seems to be that there are two human persons involved, and that it's wrong to take a human life. The argument for abortion in the case of rape modifies that argument to say that a child conceived in rape doesn't deserve to live.

    Can you square that circle for me?
    We are unfortunately left with no option but to vote no and tell the government go back to the drawing board.
    Why would the government go back to the drawing board? A "no" vote is a vote for the status quo. It doesn't matter if you believe that you're voting "no" in order to secure a different abortion regime; all you're voting for is the retention of the 8th amendment in all its shambolic horror.

    Ironically, a "yes" vote would make it easier to achieve the abortion regime you want: all that would be required is a change in legislation, not in the Constitution. Just elect a government that agrees with your view that the children of rape don't deserve human rights, and you're done.
    Equally the yes vote is being rammed down our throats which has resulted in a lot of silent no voters
    Unless someone has physically stuffed a stack of leaflets into your mouth, the phrase "rammed down our throats" is basically code for "I wish people would stop telling me things I don't want to hear."


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    #70
    Happyilylost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭Happyilylost


    Guy:Incognito wrote:
    And it is a black and white issue imo. You don't want to have anything g to do with abortions? Grand, choose not to.there will be no forced abortions.


    If the man wants to keep the baby and the woman doesn't is it still black and white for you? If one of your kids is a son would you like a scenario for him by which he could have his child terminated?


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    #71
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    What's the crack with mostly men out with No signs. I'm living down the south east and all I see is men on the streets campaigning for no with the odd sprinkling of women.


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    #72
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,026 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    There's a large unfortunate bunch of people who would be happy for abortion in cases of rape and FFA, however do not want the liberal abortion regime being proposed in this referendum. We are unfortunately left with no option but to vote no and tell the government go back to the drawing board.

    Equally the yes vote is being rammed down our throats which has resulted in a lot of silent no voters

    This government have said they will legislate based on the feedback from the citizens assembly, which was the up to 12 weeks on demand.

    It has been argued on boards.ie previously that the Citizens Assembly was not as representative as some might think and had a left/liberal bias (I'll try and find the post)

    All of this could be to the detriment of the Yes side at the end of the day.

    Of course 12 weeks is all the present government have said they will legislate around.

    If the repeal goes ahead any future government could legislate anyway they wised depending on TD numbers etc.


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    #73
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    listermint wrote: »
    What's the crack with mostly men out with No signs. I'm living down the south east and all I see is men on the streets campaigning for no with the odd sprinkling of women.
    It's a letter shorter.


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    #74
    blondeonblonde
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭blondeonblonde


    Jaylee Glamorous Sirloin wrote: »
    But then you go on do give another blinkered view point??
    Do you not see the irony?
    How so?

    I believe that the Yes vote is the correct way to go and I outlined some of my arguments to support that.

    Explain how that is blinkered? I acknowledged the reality that abortion is not something that anyone wants to have. It is not a pleasant or good thing. I don't necessarily agree with abortion as a concept. But the reality is that it is here!! The stable door is open and the horse has bolted!

    Outlining an opinion does not equal blinkered.

    Saying "abortion never" when that is plainly not the case is utterly blinkered. It's like the Iraqi army officer who denied the American invasion with an American tank behind him!

    Perhaps you'd like to offer your own opinion on the matter?


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    #75
    nw1dqsv7amx026
    Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »

    The late term stuff is another red herring too.its said, answered ( as I've done in this thread) then not brought up again for a couple of hours when a heap of posts have been made about other stuff in the hope any proper answers are buried.



    "But what about late term abortions" ?

    " there's no evidence for it happening outside of ffa " " women don't just decide to abort for no reason at 8 months" " there's no provision in any kawmor proposals for it"
    Silence

    Numerous other posts



    " But what about late term abortions"

    But tell us how is a red herring. Do we just take your word for it??

    The 12 weeks, I could support but I can't agree with abortions at 20 plus weeks.
    I looked at the English legislation and it looked similar to what is proposed here.
    So instead of shouting down the undecided maybe explain how the Irish law will not allow late term abortions.


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    #76
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    zell12 wrote: »
    It's a letter shorter.

    That may have sounded good in your head but to everyone else it made no sense


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    #77
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    because i believe its a child and that the life of the child is more imprtant than the mothers opinion on it.

    to me the mothers life is most imprtant (medicallly speaking)
    then the childs life
    then other non medical aspects of the mothers life

    And your e free to feel that way, or any other way, and live your life like that.

    But an actual woman who discovers she is pregnant and doesnt share your view also has to live by your view.

    Your life won't change if shes free to make her decisions about what's best for her. Forcing her to be pregnant against her will won't enhance your life in any way.. You won't even know.


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    #78
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,301 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    i would be very interested to see an opinion poll where they had a middle of the road option that allowed for rape and fatal fetal abnoralities and medial need to the mother.

    my guess is that a lot of the yes would move to that as well as a lot of no.

    im a no voter but would vote yes to the above . i have heard loads of people say the same.
    it would be interesting to see how many of either side truly want the full abortion or no abortion. most people would be in the middle

    It reads like you recognize that the 8th amendment needs to go, as it is stopping so much of what you wish for in your first paragraph. In particular the amount of medical treatment that it prevents and the injury this causes to women.

    Unfortunately the current proposed legislation goes too far for you, but that legislation may be watered down or it may be changed/tweaked by the next government which will as always have been elected by a cross-section/consensus of the people. A win for Save The Eight however means that nothing can change, quite possibly for another 35 years, but at least 15/20 years imo (I don't see any chance of a rerun of this referendum again for a generation).

    So in my humble opinion you and those who share your misgivings should Vote Yes, get rid of the 8th which you recognize causes some dreadful situations, and then fight for the legislation you feel is best.


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    #79
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Jaylee Glamorous Sirloin wrote: »
    But tell us how is a red herring. Do we just take your word for it??

    The 12 weeks, I could support but I can't agree with abortions at 20 plus weeks.
    I looked at the English legislation and it looked similar to what is proposed here.
    So instead of shouting down the undecided maybe explain how the Irish law will not allow late term abortions.

    It's fair black and white.

    If you don't want no then you want us to start arresting women at airports and seaports.

    Because your no vote keeps the status quo.

    I guess some people are genuinely satisfied to continue exporting this problem and allowing our wife's sisters nieces and friends with the prospect of death due to pregnancy complications and doctors with their hands tied .


    Solid work all round I say, we should pat ourselves in the back .


    Or you know discuss it till the cows come home and continue to let Irish women die.


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    #80
    nw1dqsv7amx026
    Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    blondeonblonde wrote: »
    How so?

    I believe that the Yes vote is the correct way to go and I outlined some of my arguments to support that.

    Explain how that is blinkered? I acknowledged the reality that abortion is not something that anyone wants to have. It is not a pleasant or good thing. I don't necessarily agree with abortion as a concept. But the reality is that it is here!! The stable door is open and the horse has bolted!

    Outlining an opinion does not equal blinkered.

    Saying "abortion never" when that is plainly not the case is utterly blinkered. It's like the Iraqi army officer who denied the American invasion with an American tank behind him!

    Perhaps you'd like to offer your own opinion on the matter?

    I assume 'abortion never' is a slogan but I also suspect that they are just as sure as you that they are right. The difference this time is that the majority of the no people are much smarter at pushing their opinions. Matt Mcgrath excluded.

    Heroin is here as well. Why not just legalise that
    too?? You're not getting my yes with that argument.


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    #81
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Jaylee Glamorous Sirloin wrote: »
    Irrespective of your opinions on the actual referendum, how can you not see a bias in the media? Check any day and there will be at least 5 articles sympathetic to repeal and maybe one token article against.
    Its really shocking to me, the lack of balance.

    As to this post, I've been wondering the same. I haven't come across a single person who volunteers an opinion for no. I suspect people are afraid to venture this opinion.
    I suspect the undecided may actually have decided and don't want to say.

    The no canvasser that called to our house said that some houses she called to said that they were voting no but wouldn’t dare say that in public.
    But people said that about SSM too and it still passed.
    I see on Twitter the yes lobby calling for civil disobediance if it’s not passed.


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    #82
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Jaylee Glamorous Sirloin wrote: »
    But tell us how is a red herring. Do we just take your word for it??

    The 12 weeks, I could support but I can't agree with abortions at 20 plus weeks.
    I looked at the English legislation and it looked similar to what is proposed here.
    So instead of shouting down the undecided maybe explain how the Irish law will not allow late term abortions.

    I never asked for anyone to take my word for it, surely all the evidence is out there that all the negative things being proposed by the no side are happening?

    Where is it being provided for in the legislation and has even 1 person called for late term abortions for whatever reason the woman decides

    What are the figures in england for people just deciding on a whim in the late stages of their pregnancy they just don't want to be pregnant anymore and have an abortion for no other reason?

    And also, is that how you view the women in your life? That's what they'll be doing?


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    #83
    Ultimate Seduction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    Ive told everyone including herself that I'll vote yes, but really I'm voting no. It's just not worth the argument.

    Yes I'm a man and won't be ever getting pregnant, but that'll be our baby's killed in the womb too. Many men probably won't even know they had a child aborted


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    #84
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    splinter65 wrote: »
    .
    I see on Twitter the yes lobby calling for civil disobediance if it’s not passed.

    Which yes lobby? The groups such as togetherforyes or a person you know/ someone who was retweeted?


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    #85
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    It reads like you recognize that the 8th amendment needs to go, as it is stopping so much of what you wish for in your first paragraph. In particular the amount of medical treatment that it prevents and the injury this causes to women.

    Unfortunately the current proposed legislation goes too far for you, but that legislation may be watered down or it may be changed/tweaked by the next government which will as always have been elected by a cross-section/consensus of the people. A win for Save The Eight however means that nothing can change, quite possibly for another 35 years, but at least 15/20 years imo (I don't see any chance of a rerun of this referendum again for a generation).

    So in my humble opinion you and those who share your misgivings should Vote Yes, get rid of the 8th which you recognize causes some dreadful situations, and then fight for the legislation you feel is best.

    i would agree with you if there was a follow to work out where that point should be

    but the question on the ballot paper will be along the lines of do you want abortions up to 12 weeks for any reason or no you dont.
    therer are only 2 options. one i completely disagree with and one i most agree with but think is a little to restrictive.


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    #86
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Ive told everyone including herself that I'll vote yes, but really I'm voting no. It's just not worth the argument.

    Yes I'm a man and won't be ever getting pregnant, but that'll be our baby's killed in the womb too. Many men probably won't even know they had a child aborted

    If that's how you feel about your relationship, why are you in it?


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    #87
    nw1dqsv7amx026
    Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭nw1dqsv7amx026


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    I never asked for anyone to take my word for it, surely all the evidence is out there that all the negative things being proposed by the no side are happening?

    Where is it being provided for in the legislation and has even 1 person called for late term abortions for whatever reason the woman decides

    What are the figures in england for people just deciding on a whim in the late stages of their pregnancy they just don't want to be pregnant anymore and have an abortion for no other reason?

    And also, is that how you view the women in your life? That's what they'll be doing?

    If debate was allowed in the press, this question could maybe be addressed. I see viability (which is 23weeks) and 2 doctors agreeing
    and mental health all in the proposed legislation.

    This to me is a problem with repeal.


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    #88
    blondeonblonde
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭blondeonblonde


    listermint wrote: »
    It's fair black and white.

    If you don't want no then you want us to start arresting women at airports and seaports.

    Because your no vote keeps the status quo.

    I guess some people are genuinely satisfied to continue exporting this problem and allowing our wife's sisters nieces and friends with the prospect of death due to pregnancy complications and doctors with their hands tied .


    Solid work all round I say, we should pat ourselves in the back .


    Or you know discuss it till the cows come home and continue to let Irish women die.

    This.

    No voters don't want to acknowledge that they should, by right, be demanding arrests and investigations for women who have illegal abortions by ordering pills.

    I've not heard any no campaigners looking for this. Why? Because they know that it would simply advance the case for a yes vote. Nobody could countenance putting women in prison for these actions yet they are happy to deny them the choice to access this essential health care in their own country.


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    #89
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    And your e free to feel that way, or any other way, and live your life like that.

    But an actual woman who discovers she is pregnant and doesnt share your view also has to live by your view.

    Your life won't change if shes free to make her decisions about what's best for her. Forcing her to be pregnant against her will won't enhance your life in any way.. You won't even know.

    if the child is mine then i will have to live with her decision. be that keeping the child or killing it. both have a very big effect on me . especially mental health having to deal with loosing a child (worse still taken from you)


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    #90
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,648 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    if the child is mine then i will have to live with her decision. be that keeping the child or killing it. both have a very big effect on me . especially mental health having to deal with loosing a child (worse still taken from you)

    Seems you haven't found a compatible partner then if that's the case.tbh.


    There's more than a lack of trust there. Same for the fella that told his partner he would vote yes and then vote no.

    What's the point of such a relationship if you can't agree on its fundamentals. Trust... Communication


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    #91
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    but the question on the ballot paper will be along the lines of do you want abortions up to 12 weeks for any reason or no you dont.

    Nope. The question on the ballot paper will be whether you agree to replace this:
    The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to
    respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

    This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

    with this:
    Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.


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