Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

punisher5112

unkel wrote: »

"Fianna Fáil is seeking to introduce a law that would mean some electric scooters and other such vehicles would not require a licence or insurance, but that helmets would be compulsory, that there would be a speed limit of 25km/h and that it would be an offence to interfere with speed-limiting software on the vehicles."

Yes I had seen that....

Some were questioning it.

Similar to those strapping petrol engines onto mountain bikes which again isn't road legal or safe...

AhHaor

unkel wrote: »

"and that it would be an offence to interfere with speed-limiting software on the vehicles."

So they're going to stop people and ask for them to show the firmware version of the scooter on their phone and confirm it's not a custom firmware.

Can't see how this would go wrong

galwaytt

tuxy wrote: »

It sounds like the best thing to do is ignore the court summons.

Not really: if you get a conviction, you'll get a driving ban, which means no driving of your car either...

e.g.: https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/oktoberfest-dont-drink-and-ride-scooter

unkel

unkel wrote: »

"Fianna Fáil is seeking to introduce a law that would mean some electric scooters and other such vehicles would not require a licence or insurance, but that helmets would be compulsory, that there would be a speed limit of 25km/h and that it would be an offence to interfere with speed-limiting software on the vehicles."

He's pulling the 25km/hr number out of his ass, it's just too slow.

I'd rather pay a small tax and insurance to have a higher speed but the government will do everything in their power to keep people in cars by making other forms of transport much less attractive.

The E.U e bike limits are too low also and among the most restrictive in the world.

USA can have 20 mph and noone is dying because of it.

But must keep the tax flowing from cars and the more cars choking the roads the better because then they'll use more fuel and they get more tax.

I would be in favour of e-scooters having insurance regardless because if one crashes into me I'll be sueing so riders should be protected as well as everyone else.

Lumen

AhHaor wrote: »

So they're going to stop people and ask for them to show the firmware version of the scooter on their phone and confirm it's not a custom firmware.

It would be more practical to just introduce a speed and weight limits for this class of vehicle, then enforce the same as with other motor vehicles, but with the additional constraint that the vehicle cannot be powered to go faster that that speed.

Then if you're caught one garda hops on and the other measures the speed by following or with a hairdryer.

If I'm hit by one the only factors that interest me are m and v^2.

rubadub

punisher5112 wrote: »

It's sort of in the name.... Footpath....

The names are not always that literal, e.g. pedestrians can use what are legally called "cycleways", unless declared otherwise

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/68/enacted/en/html

68.—(1) In this section “cycleway” means a public road or proposed public road reserved for the exclusive use of pedal cyclists or pedal cyclists and pedestrians.

(2) (a) A road authority may construct (or otherwise provide) and maintain a cycleway.

(b) Where a road authority constructs or otherwise provides a cycleway it shall by order declare either—

(i) that the cycleway is for the exclusive use of pedal cyclists, or

(ii) that the cycleway is for the exclusive use of pedal cyclists and pedestrians.

(c) Any person who uses a cycleway in contravention of an order under paragraph (b) shall be guilty of an offence.

I am not sure about cycletracks, but it is very common to see people walking & jogging on them and I have never heard any warnings/campaigns/ads from the RSA or gardai warning people not to. If they are allowed I wish they would change the name.

AhHaor

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He's pulling the 25km/hr number out of his ass, it's just too slow.

I'd rather pay a small tax and insurance to have a higher speed but the government will do everything in their power to keep people in cars by making other forms of transport much less attractive.

The E.U e bike limits are too low also and among the most restrictive in the world.

USA can have 20 mph and noone is dying because of it.

But must keep the tax flowing from cars and the more cars choking the roads the better because then they'll use more fuel and they get more tax.

The 25 is the standard limit for the Xiaomi m365 if it's unmodified. That's where that number is coming from I'd say

beauf

AhHaor wrote: »

The 25 is the standard limit for the Xiaomi m365 if it's unmodified. That's where that number is coming from I'd say

I would have assumed it was to match eBikes laws no?

Martynet

rivegauche wrote: »

15 kmph is not slow on a pavement for a grown mail with a weight of 80kg and an additonal 15 to 20kg for the scooter. You're a fairly large projectile.
Children under 14 are not allowed to use an elektroscooter in public spaces in Germany.

Not sure why are you mentioning electric scooter and and kids. My kids are on regular scooters. And when they scoot down the hill on the way to school, their speed is between 10 and 20 km/h. There is a cycling lane part of the footpath so I think it's OK. As I said, if there is enough space and no people, I don't see any issue using footpath when being extremely cautious and careful. As it is allowed in some countries up to certain speed.

Martynet

It's hilarious how stupid people are. Fear of electric scooters and similar devices makes me laugh. For decades, streets are full of 2 ton, smelly, metal boxes, which kill many people every year and that's ok... Which means we really have to change our thinking and culture. It's that simple. 25 km/h speed limit is stupid. All the devices should be allowed to move as fast as the traffic does. Think about it – ebike and few scooters moving 25 km/h. Few cyclists behind them – 30-35-40 km/h, they start overtaking them of course. Ideally, you have two lanes for these, but we dont. So we need to make that one lane as fluid as possible. We need minimum overtaking to increase safety. So, limiting escooter which is capable of 45 km/h to 25 km/h is just stupid.

joe_99

A man has run for 2 hrs at an average speed of 21km an hour

marcos_94

Martynet wrote: »

It's hilarious how stupid people are. Fear of electric scooters and similar devices makes me laugh. For decades, streets are full of 2 ton, smelly, metal boxes, which kill many people every year and that's ok... Which means we really have to change our thinking and culture. It's that simple. 25 km/h speed limit is stupid. All the devices should be allowed to move as fast as the traffic does. Think about it – ebike and few scooters moving 25 km/h. Few cyclists behind them – 30-35-40 km/h, they start overtaking them of course. Ideally, you have two lanes for these, but we dont. So we need to make that one lane as fluid as possible. We need minimum overtaking to increase safety. So, limiting escooter which is capable of 45 km/h to 25 km/h is just stupid.

So where is the line between electric scooter and a moped? Where do you draw the line for what requires a licence and what doesnt? Thats the main question now during this public consultation

unkel

joe_99 wrote: »

A man has run for 2 hrs at an average speed of 21km an hour

Only one man in this world of 7 billion people can do that though. And he needed a lot of help from dozens of other people to do so

I think an eBike or an electric scooter or moped is a far more environmentally sound solution!

grogi

Martynet wrote: »

It's hilarious how stupid people are. Fear of electric scooters and similar devices makes me laugh. For decades, streets are full of 2 ton, smelly, metal boxes, which kill many people every year and that's ok... Which means we really have to change our thinking and culture. It's that simple. 25 km/h speed limit is stupid. All the devices should be allowed to move as fast as the traffic does. Think about it – ebike and few scooters moving 25 km/h. Few cyclists behind them – 30-35-40 km/h, they start overtaking them of course. Ideally, you have two lanes for these, but we dont. So we need to make that one lane as fluid as possible. We need minimum overtaking to increase safety. So, limiting escooter which is capable of 45 km/h to 25 km/h is just stupid.

I honestly don't remember seeing a car going over sidewalk. Scooter riders aren't as polite.

BarryM

antodeco wrote: »

Ah ok. Didn't know that about cyclists!

I presume you are not a cyclist? If you are.........??

BarryM

Jaysus, this whole discussion on e this and that, smelly this and that, walking/cycling this and that, etc., makes me laugh.

In this country the infrastructure for almost any method of locomotion is incoherent. As has been suggested in the thread, it is mostly about getting in money. However, the methodologies for getting in the money are also incoherent, as are the methods of collecting money for misuse of the facilities.

Legislation covering this area is ad hoc and almost always behind the times.

Finally the idea of our politicians pontificating about what should and should not be 'allowed' is the biggest joke of all.

Frank McNally has a great piece in today's IT about the pedestrian crossing on Kildare St beside Buswells -

"the one on Kildare Street used to work instantly every time.

This was vital to democracy, because those using the light included public representatives, often rushing back to Leinster House to impersonate each other in important Dáil votes"

Precisely, a joke, like most of what passes for legislation, including perhaps a check on your e-bike for a modified motorisation, what next - check boy racers for the size of their car's exhaust pipe....?

Johnboy1951

BarryM wrote: »

....
Precisely, a joke, like most of what passes for legislation, including perhaps a check on your e-bike for a modified motorisation, what next - check boy racers for the size of their car's exhaust pipe....?

Good idea that ..... all of them should have their 'exhaust hole' measured

Mr Tickle

Lumen wrote: »

It would be more practical to just introduce a speed and weight limits for this class of vehicle, then enforce the same as with other motor vehicles, but with the additional constraint that the vehicle cannot be powered to go faster that that speed.

Then if you're caught one garda hops on and the other measures the speed by following or with a hairdryer.

If I'm hit by one the only factors that interest me are m and v^2.

And there we have it. It only took 103 pages of boards but we've finally arrived at a common sense solution.

Although you have forgotten to factor in "P" for the pointiness coefficient of said vehicle

joe_99

unkel wrote: »

Only one man in this world of 7 billion people can do that though. And he needed a lot of help from dozens of other people to do so

I think an eBike or an electric scooter or moped is a far more environmentally sound solution!

Agreed. I was just putting in context how safe 25kph is.

joe_99

grogi wrote: »

I honestly don't remember seeing a car going over sidewalk. Scooter riders aren't as polite.

But if they did the result would be catastrophic

creedp

Martynet wrote: »

Not sure why are you mentioning electric scooter and and kids. My kids are on regular scooters. And when they scoot down the hill on the way to school, their speed is between 10 and 20 km/h. There is a cycling lane part of the footpath so I think it's OK. As I said, if there is enough space and no people, I don't see any issue using footpath when being extremely cautious and careful. As it is allowed in some countries up to certain speed.

The problem is you might be extremely careful scooting on a footpath but unfortunately you'll be in the minority. In the real world you have to cater for the lowest common denominator e.g why do you need to comply with a risable 120kmh speed limit on an empty motorway? I think I could safely drive at 140kmh in those circumstances and I promise I'll drive slower in heavy traffic or bad weather. Already I see escooters flying along on busy footpaths and the faster they can go the more potential damage they can cause

AAAAAAAAA

creedp wrote: »

Already I see escooters flying along on busy footpaths and the faster they can go the more potential damage they can cause

The damage that can be done by an escooter to a member of the public by being on the footpath is really not comparable to what a car can do to an escooter user who is on the road. Additionally you can be damn sure that most scooter users have an aversion to injuring themselves, so crashes with the pedestrians would not be that common. In The Netherlands and Denmark, both of which have far more cyclists than Ireland, bikes are not expected to be in road competition with cars by default.

tuxy

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

In The Netherlands and Denmark, both of which have far more cyclists than Ireland, bikes are not expected to be in road competition with cars by default.

In those countries bikes use their own infrastructure where available(widely available). Under no circumstances can they mount a footpath that is pedestrian only. In instances where they have to use the road to get to their destination it is legal to do so.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd rather pay a small tax and insurance to have a higher speed but the government will do everything in their power to keep people in cars by making other forms of transport much less attractive.

The E.U e bike limits are too low also and among the most restrictive in the world.

USA can have 20 mph and noone is dying because of it.
.

Road deaths per capita are 50% higher in the US then Europe.

The US Cities and towns are designed completely different than EU countries. There’s few footpaths etc

E-Scooters and their limited range are not taking people out if private cars. They are just taking them off public transport.

LeeroyJ.

Fully expecting eScooter to remain illegal, at least so far, it seems Gardai are turning a blind eye. I've been riding to and from work on mine every day for the last few months and have even been behind a Police car for part of the journey a few times and have yet to have any trouble.
I drive to the left, wear a helmet and a visibility vest, when going through pedestrian areas like Grand Canal Dock I slow down to minimum speed or push (depending on how crowded) and have a m365 which doesn't go faster than 25km/h.
They need to just introduce the same legislation as Germany and not bring in the rental companies.
They aren't cheap so legislation and policing could help to moderate usage of eScooters.

The reason I switched to it is that neither driving nor Public transport is sustainable in Dublin. The Luas and Dublin bus are so unreliable and so packed that it can take me anywhere between 15 and 60 Minutes to get to work. On my scooter it takes me between 10 and 20.

tuxy

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

They need to just introduce the same legislation as Germany and not bring in the rental companies.
They aren't cheap so legislation and policing could help to moderate usage of eScooters.

How would the insurance rule in Germany work with our insurance cartel?
Would you still use your scooter if it cost more than a car to insure? And that's being optimistic and assuming they would insure people once rate were extremely high, there's a good chance they would refuse to cover scooters.

Martynet

marcos_94 wrote: »

So where is the line between electric scooter and a moped? Where do you draw the line for what requires a licence and what doesnt? Thats the main question now during this public consultation

Well electric scooter is much lighter and you are standing on it. So you are more vulnerable than on classic scooter where you sit and it's like 100 kg heavy.

marcos_94

Martynet wrote: »

Well electric scooter is much lighter and you are standing on it. So you are more vulnerable than on classic scooter where you sit and it's like 100 kg heavy.

So why woukld you increase the max speed of an e-scooter as your previous point said?

Martynet

marcos_94 wrote: »

So why woukld you increase the max speed of an e-scooter as your previous point said?

Because there is countless situations when there is no need to cap the speed at 25 km/h. When the traffic is low or in areas outside city centre. But to make it safer, only people who passed any type of driving test would be allowed to do that. The rest would stick to 25, always.

grogi

Martynet wrote: »

Because there is countless situations when there is no need to cap the speed at 25 km/h. When the traffic is low or in areas outside city centre. But to make it safer, only people who passed any type of driving test would be allowed to do that. The rest would stick to 25, always.

And do you imagine enforcing that?