Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

prinzeugen

cojomo2 wrote: »

The ones that require a push start you could argue the toss. I went by the gardai a few times, got a funny stare at worst.I don't think they are bothered (until you get involved in an accident ofcourse)

How it is started does not matter. Another way of putting it is that if the scooter is capable of propelling itself and you by mechanical means only on a level surface, then its a MPV.

Its the same law that made those mini-moto bikes from about 10 years ago illegal in public places.

If methods of starting were all that mattered, you could argue that a motorbike that only goes with a bumpstart is not a MPV because you had to push it to get it going.

cojomo2

prinzeugen wrote: »

How it is started does not matter. Another way of putting it is that if the scooter is capable of propelling itself and you by mechanical means only on a level surface, then its a MPV.

Its the same law that made those mini-moto bikes from about 10 years ago illegal in public places.

If methods of starting were all that mattered, you could argue that a motorbike that only goes with a bumpstart is not a MPV because you had to push it to get it going.

It's open to interpretation.

From RSA:
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

beauf

Yeah no mention of push to start.

You don't need to scoot to keep these scooters going you can engage cruise control and not put your foot down for 10km+

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%2520on%2520E%2520Bikes%2520and%2520Pedelecs%2520and%2520battery%2520Scooters.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwutLy78ngAhVlpHEKHZBGA4kQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw29TJJNRn6KGWakqqk5upOH

RHJ

I think by this stage it has been well established that they are either illegal or in some grey area of the law but unless you act like a complete idiot or generally behave like a dick while riding one then the vast majority of Garda simply won't care and will let you carry on your merry way.

cojomo2

RHJ wrote: »

I think by this stage it has been well established that they are either illegal or in some grey area of the law but unless you act like a complete idiot or generally behave like a dick while riding one then the vast majority of Garda simply won't care and will let you carry on your merry way.

The push ones are in a grey area as you could agrue the toss with a judge. If they are found to be illegal...if some idiot crashes into you ..their fault..you could be in trouble for using an mpv without the necessary documents etc.

mfceiling

How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?

Shefwedfan

mfceiling wrote: »

How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?

Depends what type of insurance you are looking for. I am sure many of the smaller gadget insurance companies will cover for theft etc.



Tax? no tax band for them so no chance you can tax it. You could tax it as a moped I suppose, do moped have tax

RHJ

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Depends what type of insurance you are looking for. I am sure many of the smaller gadget insurance companies will cover for theft etc.



Tax? no tax band for them so no chance you can tax it. You could tax it as a moped I suppose, do moped have tax

Yes a small moped or motorcycle does have to be taxed I can't be bothered to look up the exact rate right now, but I believe it somewhere in the region of €60 for the year I guess it could be taxed under that bracket.

The Enbalmer

loyatemu wrote: »

technically no-one is allowed use them on public streets, it's just not really enforced.

It will be the minute somebody is killed on one.

I see them around certain parts of Dublin and the way they're being driven means its only a matter of time.

cojomo2

RHJ wrote: »

Yes a small moped or motorcycle does have to be taxed I can't be bothered to look up the exact rate right now, but I believe it somewhere in the region of €60 for the year I guess it could be taxed under that bracket.

I think a vehicle needs a seat to fall into the scope of tax.

ted1

cojomo2 wrote: »

It's open to interpretation.

From RSA:
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

By go they mean you need to keep pedalling. Or scooting , it can only assist.

ted1

beauf wrote: »

Yeah no mention of push to start.

You don't need to scoot to keep these scooters going you can engage cruise control and not put your foot down for 10km+

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%2520on%2520E%2520Bikes%2520and%2520Pedelecs%2520and%2520battery%2520Scooters.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwutLy78ngAhVlpHEKHZBGA4kQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw29TJJNRn6KGWakqqk5upOH

The Road Traffic Act of 1961 at Section 3(1) (a) and (b), defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as:

“a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including;
(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical, but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;”

cojomo2

ted1 wrote: »

By go they mean you need to keep pedalling. Or scooting , it can only assist.

Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.

ED E

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.

No, its not.


There's an exemption for electrically assisted bicycles. Theres no exemption for electrically powered anything else. A scooter is not a bike. Its an MPV.

phester28

here we go again. the law is clear but only in that it is outdated and grey. Garda press office released a memmo saying that they are legal but IMO it is still grey. Until it is tested in court it appears that everyone will quote their "opinion"

ted1

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thats your interpretation..hence its a grey area..open to interpretation.

No it’s. It my interpretation, it’s the law.

ted1

phester28 wrote: »

here we go again. the law is clear but only in that it is outdated and grey. Garda press office released a memmo saying that they are legal

They said that the are an MPV.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1010870/

https://twitter.com/gardatraffic/status/890477022245519361?s=21

phester28

as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law

beauf

Do you have a direct link to the press office saying that. No some comment on another website.

ted1

phester28 wrote: »

as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law

Any link to the press office statement ?

Last one here says they are an MPV.

https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

cojomo2

ted1 wrote: »

Any link to the press office statement ?

Last one here says they are an MPV.

https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

From the link above:
. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Again, this is a grey area and open to interpretation. If I was up in court, id be arguing that my scooter does require scooting for propulsion (even though this is only initially)before a motor kicks in.

You can argue all you want but the fact remains, this is open to interpretation and a good solicitor would argue the toss and perhaps win.

ted1

cojomo2 wrote: »

From the link above:
. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Again, this is a grey area and open to interpretation. If I was up in court, id be arguing that my scooter does require scooting for propulsion (even though this is only initially)before a motor kicks in.

You can argue all you want but the fact remains, this is open to interpretation and a good solicitor would argue the toss and perhaps win.

Argue all you want but it’s defined in the law.
It’s the reason why the motor stops when you stop pedalling an E bike.

phester28

Cant find the garda press release at the moment but another article I just googled is here.

@ted 1 only a lot of the ebikes dont require propulsion from your pedals only that you occasionally turn them. The motor does 100% of the work. So all of these ebikes would be in the same category as you paint above.
https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/

ted1

phester28 wrote: »

Cant find the garda press release at the moment but another article I just googled is here.

@ted 1 only a lot of the ebikes dont require propulsion from your pedals only that you occasionally turn them. The motor does 100% of the work. So all of these ebikes would be in the same category as you paint above.
https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-and-the-law-in-ireland/

They’d be motorbikes.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/25/enacted/en/print#sec7



pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;

****Note the last 3 words

I’d trust the SI website over an article by “Martin”

Founding Editor of Goosed, Martin is a massive tech fan, into movies and will talk about anything to anyone.Read more by Martin

antodeco

Those who bought the Kugoo S1, have been doing some Russian research on it. A few recommendations, under where the battery compartment is, I've additionally sealed it from moisture. Put in an extra layer of Sugru around the compartment. The Russian sites say it's a precautionary measure incase you get caught out in really bad rain. They also say to seal the main display unit, but I'll leave doing that for now.

I also noticed on review videos that the front damoner moves quite easily. Mine wouldn't move at all. I sprayed wd40 on it and it seemed to free it up a lot. Again, the Russian sites say this is a good idea to keep on top of it. Also says to do it on the rears, so will need to figure that one out.

Unfortunately I've been unwell the last 2 weeks, so haven't really been on it, nor had the energy to really use it, but took myself 2 days just to do the above (it's a 10 minute job!).

prinzeugen

mfceiling wrote: »

How would you go about taxing and insuring s small electric scooter? Has anyone actually tried?

It would be impossible to do.

You would need a Certificate of Conformity for it (which you won't get).

If you could get one you would need to make sure the scooter meets the minimum requirements for road use (lights, brakes, tyres, speedo etc).

You would then need to take it to a NCT test station to be examined. If it passed (which it wont), you would need to pay VRT etc and then you would get a reg number.

Tax it, insure it (if any insurance company would quote you) and you are good to go.

Did I mention the minimum cat M driving licence you would need?

cojomo2

So what do people predict? Will the law be updated for these this year? Will Noel Rock get his bill through to have these in the same category as road legal electric bikes? Or will it go the other way ?

prinzeugen

phester28 wrote: »

as i said. Press office say they are legal Rte say garda Left hand say they MPV. But in the same article it is admitted by the Dep of transport that they can not be taxed unless they have a seat. Yet legislation says all MPV have to be taxed and insured.

Yet these cant. You see the dilemma that would allow for a challenge based in Law

Not true. The electric handcarts Dublin city council staff use to empty the street bins have reg plates and are taxed. They don't have seats.

So it does not matter whether there is a seat or not. There is no grey area regarding these things.

They are illegal to use in public areas.

prinzeugen

cojomo2 wrote: »

So what do people predict? Will the law be updated for these this year? Will Noel Rock get his bill through to have these in the same category as road legal electric bikes? Or will it go the other way ?

If the law is changed, it will need to be worded very, very carefully.

I would hope that there would be minimum standards, ie Cat M licence, lights, speedo etc.

But it could open a whole new can of worms.

Sono

How do people that have them negotiate roundabouts?