Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805995#Comment_121805995

Yes, Full closure of Charlemont to Sandyford is given as 9 months, but if you look at the bottom section of the Gantt chart diagram, you'll see there is four year period where the Green Line is either split in two or closed completely, with no through service south of Ranelagh. That would be a major disruption to users of the southern Green Line.

I think extension should happen eventually, but it would be better if Luas Green already had a new route in this part of Dublin before the severing of the Charlemount-Sandyford stretch occurred.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806842#Comment_121806842

The crazy (expensive) O’Connell bridge stop was dropped from the final MN design. If you don’t value Tara St integration with 70k daily DART and commuter rail users, I don’t know what to say. Not being driverless would mean instant obsolescence as the cities all over Europe are paying fortunes to upgrade legacy metro systems to automatic trains. MN is 20th century tech - ML reflects current metro design philosophy

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806692#Comment_121806692

They're almost completely different approaches to solving the same problem.

The big difference for passengers is that ML is an automated system, so there are more trains, and the wait between them is shorter. As a result, the capacity of ML is over twice that of MN.

For a construction point of view, ML was redesigned so that all of the stations could be built using cheaper cut-and-cover techniques. MN had a couple of expensive tunnelled/mined stations, most notably the one that was to have been built under the Liffey at O'Connell Bridge (Celtic Tiger, how are ye...)

The route was also changed to allow a much better interchange with Commuter/DART services at a new Glasnevin IÉ and Metro station.

Finally, the terminus was moved south from St Stephen's Green to Charlemont, which would make both an extension to Southwest and/or extension onto the existing Green line a lot easier in future.

AngryLips

It's interesting that there's talk of future ML routes because I don't think there are any plans in place for more metrolink lines apart from the conversion of green line. If you look at the next phases of rail development for Dublin after ML it includes Luas to:

• Finglas
• Lucan
• Poolebeg
• Bray

So actually, what we have is a pretty significant expansion of the Luas network on foot of ML. Does anyone know what order of priority the above lines will be progressed? I assume Finglas next, followed by maybe Lucan? The Lucan luas is interesting because the plans for the city centre are at odds with the route floated for that line. How will it thread through the south-inner city and which existing lines will it interchange with and where? I assume it will connect with Green line, and possibly also ML and the existing Dart line. I assume that the likely alignment will be south of Stephen's Green if the intention is to link up with either Metro or Dart, given that College Green and the Quays are probably out of bounds. Does anyone think that the Dublin transport strategy will be changed again to long-finger the above lines in favour of more metro?

bk

Does anyone think that the Dublin transport strategy will be changed again to long-finger the above lines in favour of more metro?

Yes, id expect future transport strategy plans to change once Metrolink is in place.

To be honest, 3 of the 4 Lucas lines you list aren’t major projects, relatively straight forward Luas extensions. Just Lucan would be the big one.

The 2042 strategy actually includes even more Luas lines post 2042. Have said that I suspect some of those corridors will end up Metro instead.

keep in mind, back in 2017 they were considering an underground Luas line to the airport, instead of Metrolink! Obviously when they studied it in more detail, they opted for the higher capacity Metro option.

Having said that, I do suspect some would be Luas lines. We really should have been building more Luas lines over the past few years. It is more of a case that I assume Metrolink has sucked up all the resources. So we do need to get back to building some Luas lines too.

cgcsb

A future east-west luas through the south city centre could take Dame st and turn on George's Street then run on the south side of Stephens Green and out to ballsbrige. Ringsend can be served by a red line extension. But in my view it would be better to have a Lucan to Ringsend metro line including a mega project for an upgraded ststion at Tara. Luas should stay inside the m50 not serve as a distant commuter route

After the Sandyford upgrade is done and there's a continuous Swords to Sandyford metro line then the obvious next line should be tallaght to coolock.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804323#Comment_121804323

So regarding the height difference- could a temp ramp setup be used on every second platform to accommodate people getting on to high floor metros, while the other stops get closed for a period of time to permanently increase the height of the platforms? This would allow metros to get onto the GL once the connection at charlemont is complete- obviously also dependant on the at grade crossings being brought up to standard,

What’s the height difference between luas doorway at floor level and metro?

Windowsnut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805941#Comment_121805941

Well if it connects to the Luas, it won't be fast! - It could also be extended out past the airport to connect to Swords.

God only knows but at least every 15 mins I suspect if it is to be of any use...

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806975#Comment_121806975

I think a Luas spur from James' to College Green could work well to increase E-W city centre capacity, but I can't see them continuing across to Pearse Street given the disruption it would cause to Luas Cross City and the core bus spines (A, E and F).

I could envision SSG becoming a major hub for Luas with tracks all sides of the park - various routes branching off to Harcourt, Baggot, Leeson, Cuffe Street (to St. Patricks). It could become the centre piece of a long term master plan for a proper Luas network.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808027#Comment_121808027

I don't recall Luas BDX being particularly disruptive on Red line when it was being built. I highly doubt that in itself would be reason hold off threading Lucan luas further east towards Pearse or elsewhere.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806842#Comment_121806842

Eh?

You can quibble on the SSG stop location but it is still right beside major employment and leisure hubs. In fact being closer to Merrion Square has advantages to the footprint of rail transit in the city.

Tara is a great stop. It is close to Trinity, College Green, Busáras and even the IFSC, not to mention the fact that is has a DART tie in. It’s basically the most central existing station in the city and is enabling so much redevelopment around it.

Metro North would have been a poorly integrated piece of infrastructure if it had been built without DART Underground.

Operstionally ML is also vastly superior in terms of capacity, cost etc.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121807390#Comment_121807390

I find the Red Line extension to Poolbeg to be a mediocre proposal.

It’s great for the north docklands has it backs up a load of residential that will give vibrancy to the area but it missed that most people want to go to the south core.

Fully agree on the Lucan to Ringsend Metro. Or it should be DU.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805441#Comment_121805441

Tbh I don’t really understand why you’d go to the cost and disruption of that when another line to Sandyford is envisaged.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806883#Comment_121806883

While it could have a new route, there is no way they will replicate the trip out to Sandyford so that disruption is going to happen regardless.

Any overlap of a proposed Metro upgrade would never have a successful business case.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808580#Comment_121808580

Because the line to sandyford would be decades in the making

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808741#Comment_121808741

Why?

Currently the UCD and Sandyford Luas link via the N11 is prioritised ahead of any Metrolink upgrade to the existing Green line.

Consonata

Routing the Green line down the N11 would seem to make the most sense to me. It's the widest alignment road that exists on the soutside and would be relatively easy to connect with a Luas spur at Harcourt.

Would make the case for connecting the GL to metro that bit easier, and it is also going to be a corridor that will inevitably need to be brought to luas capacity as is given the amount of buses that are funnelled through the area. Frees up capacity for other bus projects elsewhere.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808936#Comment_121808936

Where is this shown?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808942#Comment_121808942

In an ideal world I don't really disagree, but having metro, Luas and DART lines all in the that region seems like a difficult one to argue as value for money surely?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809280#Comment_121809280

Given its easier than other alternatives I'm not sure where else you could route the line. the N11 is massive and doing a luas conversion there would be trivial in comparison to any where south west which realistically needs a TBM.

Rechuchote

It seems strange that the old Kenilworth route - one of the main tram termini was at Kenilworth Square North - isn't considered.

Vast numbers of single-person cars go streaming along Clanbrassil Street, and most of these could be replaced by a few trams. Wasn't Clanbrassil Street - Harold's Cross - Rathfarnham the plan proposed by Éamon Ryan before he got the gig?

In the 1900s there was even a tram from Terenure to Blessington.

Look at the 1915 tramlines…

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809331#Comment_121809331

The alternative is nothing presumably? I don't think there is an inherent problem with the segregated luas lines, the full line is too long as it is.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809277#Comment_121809277

The 2042 Dublin transport strategy.

Beyond 2042 they have earmarked for a UCD routed Luas to Sandyford, which will also takeover the Luas link beyond Sandyford and thus be one line from Bray to the city centre.

It’s fair to be dubious given the Charlemoint routing, but it has more paper behind it.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806964#Comment_121806964

Thanks very clearly put. The higher frequency seems better. Automation should also assist in the running costs. I wonder if the cost savings of cut and cover (complex enough jobs in their own right over tunnelling when deep) will have been eroded with the passage of time? Anyways seems a smarter approach all round. Are the tunnels twin or single tracked?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809344#Comment_121809344

The idea of a Luas out that general direction - Line E - was deemed unfeasible in 2008.

That was in an era where the level of CPOing of gardens and cutting out of traffic lanes, turn lanes etc that BusConnects and modern DMURs entails would not have been accepted; so I'd be happy for them to spend a million or so on revisiting that rejection.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809280#Comment_121809280

It isn’t really getting a Metro though. It has a DART that hugs the coast and a chronically full Green Line that has been taken over by new developments in Sandyford and increasingly Cherrywood.

I know people talk about Rathfarnham and all but I don’t see how it gets a Luas before a second Sandyford one. People talk about the N11 QBC but that is an enabler for another line. You have Vincent’s, UCD and a boat load of higher density developments springing up along the QBC (I think post Celtic Tiger that DLR council had the most apartments in the country so it is ahead of most in “densification”).

The south west of the city is a real conundrum as there doesn’t appear to be any real natural corridors for a Luas. They don’t have a UCD. They don’t have a Sandyford and Cherrywood backing them up. A lovely pleasant place that people would love to live in but the densities are low. It cannot possibly justify an underground for most of it unless there is a drastic change in what is getting built there and the foothills of the mountains.

Still though, the Second Tallaght- Knocklyon Luas is still crayoned in by the NTA so they must have an idea of a route.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809578#Comment_121809578

That's not how I would read it, it specifically says the UCD to Sandyford Luas is subject to further Metro development

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809635#Comment_121809635

It could be served maybe by an orbital route but not a radial probably. There isn't a decent recent Dublin Density map but it'd be hard to argue that given the N11 has one of the highest bus frequencies in the city, it isn't warranted to have some sort of Luas system, if for no other reason that other parts of the city can be better served by buses than they are currently.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809682#Comment_121809682

https://youtu.be/erej20Ngl9Q?si=0C5jYgJakOD0rNqf

Go to about 23.30 mins

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809635#Comment_121809635

What other PT can we cram into the sandyford area before rathfarnham/ terenure areas get a decent bus lane/ luas/ god forbid metro?

Would the good citizens of sandyford like helipads? How about a hyper loop?