Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660058#Comment_121660058

Metro West goes through a lot of brownfield which could be developed in future, particularly on the North side. If built to Metro standard with Metro speeds, it would necessitate less transfers in the city core, with folk avoiding it entirely if they need to. E.g somebody in Blanchardstown, working at the Mater Hospital, could get Metro West to Dardistown, and ML to the Mater. Not everyone's journey has to pass through OCS and its probably bad for urban development for it to remain so.

spillit67

The Metro going to Sandyford makes sense. It justifies it on several fronts.

As does UCD, no matter what quackery the NTA put into their scoping with Jacobs.

The N11 corridor is becoming more dense- it has the room and the planners have given that bandwidth.

Upgrading the Luas to Metro on the Green line and a UCD Luas extension will cover the south east.

I also think the Knocklyon Luas which also goes to the other side of Tallaght will suffice.

A quick glance at the dashboard of Dublin homes with planning/under construction shows the complete lack of new ones in semi D SW Dublin.

It’s always going to suffer because with Metrolink there is the green space to quite clearly see how it will enable growth. Here there are mountains.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660193#Comment_121660193

I'm thinking more in terms of opportunity cost. If we build Metro West, what are we not building?

I just don't think there's huge demand for people travelling between the western suburbs. There's orbital bus routes doing this so I guess the data will show the demand. If there's huge demand, we can do a feasibility study.

I think a Metro from Tallaght to town would be number 1 priority. This opens up a huge area for development.

If you imagine the entire SW industrial area with medium density development and high quality public transport. That's what a modern city should look like. It would have Dart, canal cycle way, Luas and Metro. I think at least 150,000 people could live here.

Dublin County's population is growing by 18,000 a year. The commuter belt is growing as well. So we badly need well connected development land.

Then some East to West metro or dart underground would be next priority.

Upgrading the Green Luas is also a priority obviously but I don't know if it's possible.

Also more Luas lines would be good like to Poolbeg, Finglas, UCD maybe, St James to SSG maybe or to TCD.

spillit67

Both the Luas Red and DART SW already cover this off. The problem is capacity.

I think we are well served with the development potential of the DART+ lines and Metrolink for the next couple of decades.

salmocab

not sure on UCD needing luas or whatever, students are less likely to be doing 9-5 so the strain on the system is softened by their variable times, it’s also largely vacant for a lot of time each year. I know people work there full time but the numbers drop significantly outside of term times. If a line is passing it’s a good place to stop but I doubt it is that much of a destination from a cost benefit point of view.

spillit67

The same could be said for anywhere.

The justification on the CBA for not doing it is the QBC. The QBC works great till Donnybrook, then it doesn’t. Buses are regularly too packed from UCD.

It’s a destination that draws traffic from all over. If you are serious about reducing road traffic, you look to connect the largest university in the State by more than just buses.

UCD are going to become increasingly agitated that they are the only Dublin university not connected by a form of rail in the next 10 years.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660297#Comment_121660297

I hard disagree, you don't think there won't be big demand from the likes of Tallaght and Blanchardstown for a speedy direct link to the Airport! And a line that would interchange with the two Western DART lines, as well as Metrolink!

The point to keep in mind is that it would be relatively cheap, quick and easy to build. All above ground. It would only be slightly more expensive then a Luas line. But much cheaper then another underground metro line or DU.

I'm not saying build it instead of a second underground metro line, but that it should be cheap enough to do in parallel with a second underground Metro line or DU.

I mean at the moment we are building three major projects at the same time, Metrolink, Dart+ and BusConnects. Once they are done, surely we can do Metro West + Metro 2 + a few Luas lines at the same time?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660416#Comment_121660416

No I don't think there's much demand for a metro from Blanch or Tallaght to the airport.

We'll see what the data says from the orbital buses.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660362#Comment_121660362

UCD wouldn't be the destination. It would continue to Stillorgan or Sandyford or Dundrum (along the Eastern Bypass corridor) or even to Booterstown.

I'm not sure what's possible. Can a Luas run along the N11? Maybe.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660466#Comment_121660466

Point being you can knit together routes to facilitate connections between railway lines rather than having dozens of radial routes servicing the city at great cost. Somebody at Finglas or Blanch could hop on a Metro to link with one of the Dart lines. They could equally if Metro West followed the full ring, link up with the GL/Metrolink on the Southside or the Southern Dart, completely avoiding having to deal with transfers in town. It gives people lots of speedy options that aren't dependent on traffic in town.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660361#Comment_121660361

Dart+ covers the very northern part. Red Luas covers the middle but is close to capacity. The Metro to Tallaght will free up capacity on the Luas.

The southern part of Ballymount has nothing. This is a huge area. That's where the Metro will run. Also east of Tallaght center are lots of industrial areas which could have a station and be medium density apartments.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660466#Comment_121660466

I'm in genuine shock! I don't think anyone would say with a straight face that there wouldn't be major demand for a speedy Metro to the airport! Come on, really!!!!!

And it wouldn't just be to the airport. It would be folks in Tallaght deciding to head to Blanchardstown shopping center to shop or even work there. Or students attending TU Dublin or vice versa.

The orbital bus routes are already a big success, but a speedy Metro would bring it to a whole other level.

Of course I'd expect the NTA to do a detailed CBA, if other options are better, sure do those first. At the very least I'd hope they reserve the land for a Metro West alignment.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661220#Comment_121661220

Given it would be a lot easier politically to do an elevated railway there than an underground in the city, I have to imagine the CBA would be quite good.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659652#Comment_121659652

The Dublin Airport station will also have turn back facilities so it doesn't even need to necessarily go all the way to swords.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660414#Comment_121660414

Buses are regularly too packed from UCD

In the morning peak, a lot of busses whizz by full as far back as Brewery Road! Now, a fair amount of people would likely get off at UCD depending on what time it is.

gjim

Disagree with any claim we don't need more East/West capacity or that the PPT fulfils that role or that orbital metro or outersuburban street-trams should be prioritised.

Dublin has it backwards - relatively little capacity through the actual centre (couple of street trams and a single heavy rail line) while adding more capacity further out.

Successful PT heavy rail/metro systems across the world provide huge through-running capacity in the centre where very high frequencies can be accommodated. Then as you move further from the centre, lines can branch, funnelling less frequent services into the high frequency/capacity central core(s).

This only works with through-running heavy rail/metro alignments - which is why the PPT doesn't help in this regard and DU/the Interconnector is required. With DU, and integration of the southern GL into ML, and maybe one other centre-traversing metro (my preference would be Tallaght to Howth replacing the Howth DART shuttle) , you'd have the capacity to carry about 100k passengers an-hour INTO and through the centre. Then you have the capacity in the centre to cope with extensions, branches, etc. further out.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661802#Comment_121661802

I didn't realise that! That is great news and makes a lot of sense.

tom1ie

After Metrolink is built the next step should be to close the level crossings on the GL and have metrolink feed onto the GL at Charlemont towards sandyford.

After this a metro line MUST be built servicing tallaght-Firhouse-Knocklyon-rathfarnham-terenure- harolds cross- Christchurch- chapel street and then head out towards the north east- baldiyle or something.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660466#Comment_121660466

The corridor along Metro West from Tallaght through Clondalkin/Liffey Valley, Blanch and up to Swords has a population of 250k people! However the only viable way to commute between these areas is the M50 with car, or a long commute via town.

If there is little demand currently, it's because it has been severely hindered by poor planning. Metro West would open up a whole world of opportunities for that corridor.

I'm very excited to see how the Western Orbitals perform. They need more investment in infrastructure and bus lanes to reach their full potential.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662293#Comment_121662293

Every quadrant of Dublin city has a population of 250,000.

Why not a Metro south connecting Dun Laioghre to Stillorgan and all the way to Tallaght?

Or a Metro North from Blanch to Baldoyle?

We'll see how the bus orbitals do.

Most orbital Metros are much more central. Look at Copenhagen.

I think an orbital Metro closer to the canals would have more merit. Or just simply an east to West metro.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661826#Comment_121661826

Yeah I have to laugh at when people mention the great Stillorgan QBC.

It is already at or above capacity on many routes - that’s before you consider the various developments up and down it that are coming on stream.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660580#Comment_121660580

Dubious. Both already unlocks a lot of this land. They key will be increasing capacity elsewhere which at the very least, the Lucan Luas should provide.

If Tallaght is going to be served elsewhere, it appears likely through the planned Knocklyon Luas which would also connect to Tallaght.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660481#Comment_121660481

That would be the intention I believe.

It would hook up to Sandyford either via Stillorgan or Brewery Road.

The Green Line would terminate at Sandyford (but connected to this new one) with the new line going out to Cherrywood and Bray.

The NTA nixed UCD for the Metro. IMO the reason is they are still determined to upgrade the Green Line. The notion that it is only in demand for 9 months a year has been mentioned. I think this hilarious- UCD already gets lots of summer residents. There is nothing to stop Ireland moving to full three semesters like is done internationally in places as well as for Master students.

UCD itself is a huge space with billions of infrastructure poured in. There is more than enough uses for it year round.

There is always an interesting bias towards new brown field or green field activity in all of these CBAs. They always underestimate the existing.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662348#Comment_121662348

It's not dubious.

Dart and Luas are already close to capacity. The Dart has Clonburris coming also.

I'm talking about adding 150,000 people minimum living there.

Ballymount is a huge area also.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662359#Comment_121662359

Yes, come summer time if I'm on an N11 bus that's passing UCD, more often than not theres a fair amount of summer students getting on/off. Once the bus sat there for 5 minutes as what felt like the whole upper deck worth of Spanish students got off the bus 😂

There a decent amount of 3 semester masters courses in Ireland already, although those are usually 1 year masters where the 3rd semester is either a dissertation or work placement.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662359#Comment_121662359

UCDs just one stop anyway. Sandyford actually has huge potential for growth if you look at all the low rise units on the western side.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662320#Comment_121662320

South of the M50 there's nothing expect mountains. If you compare that to west of the M50, there's Kildare and Meath... The capacity for Metro West to funnel commuters from, and between, these areas is far greater than an equivalent Metro 'South', or even an orbital of the canals.

It would interchange with Luas Red, Dart SW, Luas Lucan (if built), Dart W, Luas Finglas, Metro North and Dart Northern. Not to mention the multitude of Bus routes. It's potential is enormous. No other route can create that level of interchange for so many people.

I do agree that a more central orbital of the canals would be hugely beneficial. However, this would be far more expensive to build and would never be a full orbital as PPT is 1600mm gauge and a Metro of the Grand Canal would be standard gauge.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662662#Comment_121662662

I'm not saying it's not without merit, I'm just thinking in terms of opportunity cost.

If we build Metro West, what are we not building. I'd hate to study the data but Dublin seems to be a real "commuting city" so radials are best for now.

A full orbital is worth looking at though.

The Copenhagen one is just a few Kms in Diameter, so the equivalent in Dublin would probably just be outside the canals.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662844#Comment_121662844

All of that would be worked out by a study by the NTA and a proper CBA.

Personally I'd expect Metro West to come out with a much stronger CBA then an inner orbital. But we would need to leave the experts to do their work.

Plus I don't think we could afford to do both an inner orbital and a Metro 2 line at the same time, two underground tunnels at the same time! Whereas a Metro Line 2 and Metro West could be quiet doable given the relative low cost of Metro West.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662844#Comment_121662844

On the contrary, if we're building an Inner City Orbital, what are we not building?... A tunnel would be orders of magnitude more expensive, and a surface line would be slow (given the level of conflicts/ junctions), and also significantly more expensive than Metro West.

Agreed though, Dublin is a radial commuting city for now and transport investment should reflect that. People of Tallaght need a Metro to the city more than they need it to Blanch or the airport.