Apple pulls out of data center in Athenry due to fcuked up planning and gob****es

EdgeCase

Grand so!

Ireland’s perfect. Let’s jusf keep going as is and burry our heads in sand.

Sorry I bothered posting!

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

Grand so!

Ireland’s perfect. Let’s jusf keep going as is and burry our heads in sand.

Sorry I bothered posting!

You sound like Apple. :pac:

EdgeCase

Boggles wrote: »

You sound like Apple. :pac:

Do I really?

I made some points about making a process more transparent, and appels more timely and avoiding a scenario where objections could be made for business reasons, to effectively attempt to undermine or frustrate competition.

However, clearly the status quo of causing inordinate delays and filibustering processes and causing huge difficulties and running up enormous legal bills, in a way that is not seen in countries with far far better and stricter planning is all absolutely fine.

Sure the main thing is we support enormously expensive legal bills and fight every little thing out in the high court.

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

Do I really?

I made some points about making a process more transparent, and appels more timely and avoiding a scenario where objections could be made for business reasons, to effectively attempt to undermine or frustrate competition.
.

That's not exactly what you said.

Here it is

EdgeCase wrote: »

We've a big issue with planning and we aren't solving it with a process that basically means anyone, for any reason, can hold up a process for ridiculously long periods. It's resulting in scenarios where people are objecting for commercial reasons and reasons that have nothing to do with planning.

It should not be possible to take planning objections out for reasons like commercial vested interests.

Commercial reasons have to be considered in part of planning or development.

Otherwise I get to throw up my god awful cement factory right next to your picturesque hotel.

Or we end up with 12 off licenses in a row, watching them all close down until the largest multi chain one survives.

I have absolutely no doubt your intentions are noble, but any suggestions have to be anchored in reality and not on knee jerk reactions or we could end up with terrible planning laws.

EdgeCase

Putting a cement factory up next to a picturesque hotel isn't a commercial consideration. It's an environmental issue.

As for the commercial aspect - the issue I'm seeing is competing entities frustrating eachother. I mentioned OBJECTIONS from commercial VESTED interests. Not that all commercial requirements should be ignored.

For example this kind of thing : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/waterford-objection-to-cork-port-plan-anti-competitive-1.909310

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-port-claims-rival-objections-are-flawed-59306.html

sydthebeat

bear1 wrote: »

Also appealing is free, change that and make it a payable service.
250e min fee per appeal per person. You'd see a lot of appeals stop if it started to cost people money and not the planners.
An taisce also should be banned from appealing anything.

Probably mentioned already but appealing to ABP is not free, it's actually €220 for a private person. Add that to the €20 to make a submission and you're pretty close to the cost you're suggesting

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

Putting a cement factory up next to a picturesque hotel isn't a commercial consideration. It's an environmental issue.

Cement factories get built, they pass environmental standard.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Not that all commercial requirements should be ignored.

Oh right, that is a complete U turn in what you actually said TBF.

EdgeCase wrote: »

For example this kind of thing : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/waterford-objection-to-cork-port-plan-anti-competitive-1.909310

That is pay walled.

machiavellianme

EdgeCase wrote: »

Where are you getting that from?
There are multiple 220kV lines serving all sorts of areas around Cork and Dublin both overhead and underground. Not to mention that both areas have huge generation capacity.

They're not planning to put data centres in Patrick Street or Stoneybatter. If something like that were going in either city it would be on the outskirts, likely in an industrial / tech park like Sandyford or Little Island. All of those areas are extensively well provisioned for power.

Apple tend to pick obscure locations because they don't want their data centres to be obvious also the IDA was also probably trying to push jobs into the West and incentives were offered.

Logically it's far easier to locate these things somewhere where infrastructure is easier and planning is easier.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/transmission-map

Read the EirGrid Ten year transmission forecast statement and in particular, the opportunity for demand section. There is no capacity in Dublin and very little in Cork - little island capacity has already been snapped up by another data centre. Most opportunities left in the network are in the order of 10 to 15 MW. Apple were seeking a lot more than that. Plus, Eirgrid said as much at the Datacentres Ireland conference in the RDS last November. The electrical infrastructure is already in athenry, along with plenty of wind which would otherwise have to cross the country and increase losses. Plus it is located beside the new transatlantic fiber landing in Mayo and linking to Dublin which is equally important.

CruelCoin

EdgeCase wrote: »

As for the commercial aspect - the issue I'm seeing is competing entities frustrating eachother. I mentioned OBJECTIONS from commercial VESTED interests. Not that all commercial requirements should be ignored.
[/URL]

If they're making an objection on valid grounds, then it does not matter if the objector is a vested interest, a regular citizen, local of far afield.

The whole point is to ensure that all development is done by the book and is properly planned.
Nothing short of absolute disaster could come of removing/restricting peoples ability to object on legitimate grounds.

AlekSmart

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

You do realize it wouldn’t have been in the medieval town yeah?the proposed site was roughly half way between Athenry and oranmore in the middle of a good for nothing swamp?doesnt matter now anyway.apple weren’t long getting sick of listening to the paddywhackers.ye can keep yer swamp paddywhackers.well done

Medieval is it yer lookin for...?

http://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-sale/athenry/kiltullaghathenry-athenry-galway-736009/

http://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-sale/athenry/tysaxon-athenry-galway-1469635/

http://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-sale/athenry/43-caislean-oir-newline-athenry-galway-1465166/

http://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-sale/athenry/9-cois-na-coille-athenry-galway-1513224/

Who's coddin who....daft is the word alright :eek:

AlekSmart

schmittel wrote: »

Brian Mc Donagh from Wicklow on his love of forests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7MptWbXAsU

Is there a "Freeman of Ireland" dimension to this production ?

The lad entering stage right at 1:04 looks vaguely familiar...

road_high

You can't paint a fence in this country these days without a big hullabaloo and serial objectors. In the past yes, things were too loose perhaps. But it's gone the other way now.

yrreg0850

bear1 wrote: »

You just need to look at an taisces record of appealing literally anything over 3 storeys.

An taisce also should be banned from appealing anything.

Totally agree
I think An Taisce appeal everything.

Boggles

There is talk about serial objectors - An Taisce have only taken 5 Judicial Reviews in the last 5 years all based on contravention of planning or various EU Directives – An Taisce won 3 of those and the other 2 are still before the courts.

Everything?

masculinist

kneemos wrote: »

These data centres consume massive amounts of power apparently,with little or nothing in return.

They support the ESB too . Everyone gets a piece of the action. And cities dont spring up overnight. Someones got to be the first to encourage the ESB etc to improve the infrastructure.

zom

Growing energy consumption is not something one can be proud anymore. Green nuts counting every CO2 unit we produce, will rather punish us for more usage.

dr.fuzzenstein

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

wexie

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

That sounds pretty complicated dude....I'm not sure that would ever work out

Fiery mutant

Boggles wrote: »

Or we end up with 12 off licenses in a row, watching them all close down until the largest multi chain one survives.

Well that is kind of like what we have now. Take O Connell street for example. The main thoroughfare in our capital city has been turned into a red light zone of fast food outlets and poundshops, where the only culture that can be seen is the local dregs with their trackies tucked neatly into their socks.

The plannning laws are like many other things in this country. ****3d.

Deise Vu

Isn't the CO2 emissions thing a bit of a red herring? Denmark apparently has 70% renewables, fair play to them. But unless they go to 100% then this data centre is just going to add the same requirement for power that it would have in Ireland but there will only be the same amount of renewable energy sources which they presumably are already using in full.

In fact, given that their weather is more extreme Winter and Summer than ours, I would have thought Denmark would require more power to retain a balanced temperature.

knipex

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

If you think the problem is solved by paying for the actual electricity consumed then .....

raspberrypi67

Greed...!!!

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

If they're making an objection on valid grounds, then it does not matter if the objector is a vested interest, a regular citizen, local of far afield.

The whole point is to ensure that all development is done by the book and is properly planned.
Nothing short of absolute disaster could come of removing/restricting peoples ability to object on legitimate grounds.

Let them object once and if that's dismissed it should be game over no dragging it through various different levels of court. One objection followed by possibly allowing one appeal but no more and no possible way for further objections from a person or persons who have had their objections dismissed (or anyone else who is objecting on similar grounds.

Also hugely important projects like the Apple one and other big MNCs should be fast tracked at a massively fast rate to ensure there are no hold ups for the companies involved.

Ubbquittious

Karen Late Rubber-stamp wrote: »

Also hugely important projects like the Apple one and other big MNCs should be fast tracked at a massively fast rate to ensure there are no hold ups for the companies involved.

They often are. After letting the big MNC go ahead then the planning crowd usually exact their revenge on some 1-man company just trying to start his business by haranguing him with all sorts of spurious requirements, block him because it might endanger the habitat of some animal that's in plentiful supply and come up with various other bullsh1t reasons to stop him so they can feel powerful again.


If he wants to appeal then he needs to lodge 100,000 quid to the high court while the planning crowd fights him tooth and nail with his own property tax money. All these megacorps are up on a pedestal and the benefits they bring are way overstated.

Hotblack Desiato

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.

That's completely unjust.
Apple's road tax pays for their electricity.

#Right2Leccy

Cantona's Collars

We don't see these folk dragging Starbucks through the courts for opening their 1 millionth store (exaggeration) within yards of their existing stores without going through proper planning procedures and adding to our huge waste problem.

zom

Deise Vu wrote: »

Isn't the CO2 emissions thing a bit of a red herring?

Wouldn't call half of billion of Euro "red herring":

Serious rise in Irish greenhouse gas emissions, figures show.
Expert warns of fines of up to €455m in 2020 as EU targets likely to be missed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/serious-rise-in-irish-greenhouse-gas-emissions-figures-show-1.3306961

Boggles

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

We don't see these folk dragging Starbucks through the courts for opening their 1 millionth store (exaggeration)

You do actually.

I think there was 3 or 4 force-ably closed in the past couple of years, with more going to court.

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

within yards of their existing stores without going through proper planning procedures and adding to our huge waste problem.

They are basically pulling fast ones, they are pretending they are shops, so they don't need to apply.

But sure we should let MNCs have free reign. :rolleyes:

Cantona's Collars

Boggles wrote: »

You do actually.

I think there was 3 or 4 force-ably closed in the past couple of years, with more going to court.




They are basically pulling fast ones, they are pretending they are shops, so they don't need to apply.

But sure we should let MNCs have free reign. :rolleyes:

My point was Apple did this by the book yet 3 people managed to scupper the whole project while in Dublin city centre we see a multinational chain of coffee shops open on every corner with a 2 fingers to planning laws and as you said only a small percentage that opened were brought to task after the fact.

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If he wants to appeal then he needs to lodge 100,000 quid to the high court while the planning crowd fights him tooth and nail with his own property tax money. All these megacorps are up on a pedestal and the benefits they bring are way overstated.

Their importance is very much understated if anything, they are absolutely vital to the Irish economy we would be absolutely f*cked without MNCs. The more we can get in the better and if that needs more relaxed planning, tax incentives, grants etc etc then just do it and get them and their high value jobs here.