Apple pulls out of data center in Athenry due to fcuked up planning and gob****es

knipex

salmocab wrote: »

That place would have supplied over 100 jobs, that’s a fact.

Err.. no its not..

Its an opinion.. Unless you have access to a HR plan that says otherwise..

goose2005

kneemos wrote: »

These data centres consume massive amounts of power apparently,with little or nothing in return.

same as myself really

knipex

runawaybishop wrote: »

Do you not understand why apple pulled out? Permission was granted and the appeals took so long they ****ed off to Denmark.

There are two arguments here.

1 the planning and appeals issue which I think every single person agrees is a bloody shambles.. This isn't the first case of that we have seen.

The second argument is the pros and cons of driving Ireland as a hub for data centers and the long term benefits of same.

I used to be hugely in favor of data centers but as I have listened to others more knowledgeable that I and also actually been in a few I have started to question the longer term benefits.

So planning and appeals process is a shambles.

Long term benefits of data centers at best unproven and at worst a net liability..

Ubbquittious

VinLieger wrote: »

Think you missed my point completely.

But whatever the begrudging luddites are out in force in this thread, not much point in arguing with people who want the rest of us to be as miserable and afraid of the world and technology as them

Now you're only throwing around insults for the craic. If only Apple benefits then nothing is lost

Ubbquittious

goose2005 wrote: »

same as myself really

I'd be half weary of any big energy consumer setting up shop here. With a year of operations starting you'll see some FG mouthpiece telling us that we need to cut our carbon footprint or face fines from Europe and taxing the sh1t out of our cars once again. Then you'll have the govt rushing in subsidised renewable energy production to cover up what these guys are burning in energy at a huge net loss to the state

Neyite

If any of the three main objectors submit planning permission for so much as a wall or conservatory in the future I hope their planning applications are inundated with hundreds of objections from locals and are prevented from laying a single brick.

salmocab

knipex wrote: »

Err.. no its not..

Its an opinion.. Unless you have access to a HR plan that says otherwise..

Well to be fair they said up to 150 jobs so I erred down so fair enough not fact but it will be closer to 150 than 0

wexie

Neyite wrote: »

If any of the three main objectors submit planning permission for so much as a wall or conservatory in the future I hope their planning applications are inundated with hundreds of objections from locals and are prevented from laying a single brick.

apparently you can object to anything, anywhere in the country....:pac:

Hotblack Desiato

knipex wrote: »

Long term benefits of data centers at best unproven and at worst a net liability..

Please show your workings.

yrreg0850

Neyite wrote: »

If any of the three main objectors submit planning permission for so much as a wall or conservatory in the future I hope their planning applications are inundated with hundreds of objections from locals and are prevented from laying a single brick.

You will find these people will have "friends" who will look after them.

VinLieger

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Now you're only throwing around insults for the craic. If only Apple benefits then nothing is lost

If the shoe fits....

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Jeez when you see new articles every day on well known tech sites about how said megacorps are trying to replace everyone and anything with automated AI bots it's hard not to be cynical.

Neyite

yrreg0850 wrote: »

You will find these people will have "friends" who will look after them.

Unfortunately I suspect you might be right. Still, a flood of objections that delay it a little would be a nice pain in the hoop for them even if the brown envelopes smooth over matters.

A boycott in the town could work...

daithi1970

my 2 cents...

The planning process and legal system needs to be amended to prevent spurious 3rd party legal actions, such as Brian McDonagh's case,which was to be found to be wholly without merit. I wonder do the complainants realise the damage they have done to Ireland's ability to secure high value jobs internationally, or to they even care??
The appeals system need to be sped up ASAP. Other companies who may be on the IDA s radar are going to take one look at this whole shambles, and go elsewhere. This is not just a disaster for Athenry, but for the whole of Ireland, as other competing countries will just say "but look at what happened in Athenry with Apple"
Exactly who was funding the whole legal campaigns on behalf of the objectors? Legal action in this country is ruinously expensive, so there must have been a deep pocketed person/people/movement behind all of this.The legal system needs to be a whole lot less opaque in this regard also.

EdgeCase

It's too slow. You should have a definitive decision within 12 months. It's the same with loads of things here. Layer upon layer or extremely drawn out appeals though the courts.

I can't understand why we don't just have a planning tribunal, we expertise, that sits like a court and hears these things rapidly.

yrreg0850

daithi1970 wrote: »

my 2 cents...

The planning process and legal system needs to be amended to prevent spurious 3rd party legal actions, such as Brian McDonagh's case,which was to be found to be wholly without merit. I wonder do the complainants realise the damage they have done to Ireland's ability to secure high value jobs internationally, or to they even care??
The appeals system need to be sped up ASAP. Other companies who may be on the IDA s radar are going to take one look at this whole shambles, and go elsewhere. This is not just a disaster for Athenry, but for the whole of Ireland, as other competing countries will just say "but look at what happened in Athenry with Apple"
Exactly who was funding the whole legal campaigns on behalf of the objectors? Legal action in this country is ruinously expensive, so there must have been a deep pocketed person/people/movement behind all of this.The legal system needs to be a whole lot less opaque in this regard also.

Totally correct.

You hit the nail on the head.

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

I can't understand why we don't just have a planning tribunal.

We did have one of those, it found when politicians get involved in planning corruption reigns.

Actually it will be pretty interesting to see If the SC still rule on this case and if they do come to the conclusion that not everything was lawful.

Leo will have a fair bit of explaining to do.

runawaybishop

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I'd be half weary of any big energy consumer setting up shop here. With a year of operations starting you'll see some FG mouthpiece telling us that we need to cut our carbon footprint or face fines from Europe and taxing the sh1t out of our cars once again. Then you'll have the govt rushing in subsidised renewable energy production to cover up what these guys are burning in energy at a huge net loss to the state

Microsoft have a few datacenters, they have built their own substations and generators, committed to green energy and fund a windfarm in Kerry.

Big corps these days have big environmental responsibilities and take them seriously.

Doctors room ghost

Boggles wrote: »

An no, that's not a fact either.

There is jobs there.

http://www.localbusinesspages.ie/area.asp?county=Galway&area=Athenry

Unless they are all run by AI and Robots.

Athenry will survive, people need just to calm the fook down with the hyperbole.

I was referring to the construction of apple and all the employment that would have went with it

EdgeCase

Boggles wrote: »

We did have one of those, it found when politicians get involved in planning corruption reigns.

Actually it will be pretty interesting to see If the SC still rule on this case and if they do come to the conclusion that not everything was lawful.

Leo will have a fair bit of explaining to do.

That's a different type of tribunal.

I mean a simple, transparent, planning appeals court and no options for further, endless judicial review.

Rechuchote

If political corruption of the planning process were that bad, surely the Apple centre would have been built immediately despite the objections?

No, we don't need "spurious" objections prevented - we need people who will later scream and howl, and who want a factory to be built, to add their observations at an early stage, when it only costs €20 to do so. If people had added well-expressed observations with sensible suggestions, the Apple centre might well have been built.

runawaybishop

Rechuchote wrote: »

If political corruption of the planning process were that bad, surely the Apple centre would have been built immediately despite the objections?

No, we don't need "spurious" objections prevented - we need people who will later scream and howl, and who want a factory to be built, to add their observations at an early stage, when it only costs €20 to do so. If people had added well-expressed observations with sensible suggestions, the Apple centre might well have been built.

Not a chance, the appeals were on a point of law.

Rechuchote

runawaybishop wrote: »

Not a chance, the appeals were on a point of law.

If on a point of law, scarcely spurious.

runawaybishop

Rechuchote wrote: »

If on a point of law, scarcely spurious.

You'd think but they were based on an EIS for a development that wasn't even proposed. Shouldn't have taken so long, nor got so far

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

I mean a simple, transparent, planning appeals court and no options for further, endless judicial review.

So the setting up of another court or a new quango?

Are either actually feasible, lawful or warranted?

IF someone had told me 10 years ago that Irish people would be entertaining the notion of getting rid of judicial review in cases of planning in 2018, I'd have to assume they just smoked a massive bag of crack.

knipex

runawaybishop wrote: »

Do you not understand why apple pulled out? Permission was granted and the appeals took so long they ****ed off to Denmark.

I fully understand that.

knipex

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Please show your workings.

I very very clearly said it was an "opinion" not a fact..

But seeing as you asked. the main concern I have is,

A data center has significant power demands that requires infrastructure and generation that in Ireland is heavily dependent on gas. A process that increases our greenhouse gas emissions and leaves us open to huge fines for decades to come. It also increases our entire generation system exposure to volatility in gas prices and availability.

wexie

knipex wrote: »

I very very clearly said it was an "opinion" not a fact..

But seeing as you asked. the main concern I have is,

A data center has significant power demands that requires infrastructure and generation that in Ireland is heavily dependent on gas. A process that increases our greenhouse gas emissions and leaves us open to huge fines for decades to come. It also increases our entire generation system exposure to volatility in gas prices and availability.

So would you be happier with it if the next company did something along the likes of what MS did and purchased the output of a windfarm thereby enabling more investment in renewable energy?

Personally I think that would be a great way to go. A lot of these big data centers seem to make green initiatives (read: cost savings) already.

So what if something like that was made part of the planning conditions?

We're a little bit closer to our renewables targets, they get clean energy at a set and stable price, everybody happy

EdgeCase

Boggles wrote: »

So the setting up of another court or a new quango?

Are either actually feasible, lawful or warranted?

IF someone had told me 10 years ago that Irish people would be entertaining the notion of getting rid of judicial review in cases of planning in 2018, I'd have to assume they just smoked a massive bag of crack.

Who said get rid of judicial review?
Just deal with reviews in a public, open, transparent process that doesn't drag things out for years and years.

We've a big issue with planning and we aren't solving it with a process that basically means anyone, for any reason, can hold up a process for ridiculously long periods. It's resulting in scenarios where people are objecting for commercial reasons and reasons that have nothing to do with planning.

We've even had situations an unrelated port authority took planning objections against a competitor port.

It should not be possible to take planning objections out for reasons like commercial vested interests.

A special planning appeals court, with expertise, should be able to handle appeals that go beyond Bord Pleanala.

knipex

wexie wrote: »

So would you be happier with it if the next company did something along the likes of what MS did and purchased the output of a windfarm thereby enabling more investment in renewable energy?

Personally I think that would be a great way to go. A lot of these big data centers seem to make green initiatives (read: cost savings) already.

So what if something like that was made part of the planning conditions?

We're a little bit closer to our renewables targets, they get clean energy at a set and stable price, everybody happy

Windfarms have to be backup up with another source of power or would it be OK that itunes crashes every time the wind stops blowing athenry or The midlands ???

Your argument is the same one ass Ireland not importing any electricity from the UK that was generated from nuclear fuel.


In theory perhaps not but in practice we import from a grid that uses Nuclear power to generate a significant portion of its base load.


For every additional MW of demand we need to add additional (expensive) renewables to our grid. Further cost in grid upgrades that will be paid for with a higher levy on the bill of each and every electricity user in Ireland. (and all thee windfarms will have their own planning applications).

There are huge CCGT power plants built in Ireland for the single purpose of backing up wind power.

As I said its not as simple as people seem to think.

Not every project that generates jobs is automatically good for the area or teh country. That's who there should be research done, a state policy implemented and then simplify the planing process and close down a lot of the appeals process.

I have an opinion on the benefit of wind farms, others will have a different one but at the end of the day I shouldn't be able to trash a project by playing with the planning system based on an opinion. If the state have run the numbers, decided that data centres are of huge net benefit to the state then they should have a way of simplifying the process and cut off these appeals.

Boggles

EdgeCase wrote: »

Who said get rid of judicial review?

You, think about it.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Just deal with reviews in a public, open, transparent process that doesn't drag things out for years and years.

Who or what, another quango?

EdgeCase wrote: »

We've a big issue with planning

Do we, based on what?

What other cases have you studied that leads you to believe that?

This isn't just a knee jerk reaction to Apple taking their ball and fooking off home?

Like I said if this was a Spar it wouldn't be in the news and we wouldn't be discussing it in a thread.

EdgeCase wrote: »

It should not be possible to take planning objections out for reasons like commercial vested interests.

Ridiculous, of course it should. They should be tightened up, but to suggest it shouldn't be possible is beyond silly. You need to think about this one too.

EdgeCase wrote: »

A special planning appeals court, with expertise, should be able to handle appeals that go beyond Bord Pleanala.

So another separate High Court? How does it work? Is that lawful? It was actually proposed in the 90s as far as I can remember, imagine the state we would be in now if it went ahead.

Or is your proposal just invent a new court?

What if they get it the decision wrong? Just tough?

Objectors and this includes the State have got High Court rulings overturned in the Supreme Court.

As have developers and ordinary Joe Soaps.

Judicial Review is vital and a very very very good thing, and even more so considering our chequered criminal past.

Any suggesting we should get rid or water it down is either 15 or was asleep the past 2 decades.