The Sceptics thread.

JohnnyFlash

Starting this so non-believers in cryptocurrencies, and blockchain as a tech, can have a place to discuss why.

It has become apparent to me that getting involved in other threads is 'shítting on the parade' of investors in crypto. And that was never my intention. If you all end up loaded as a result of your investments, then more power to you.

However, there is another perspective on all this. Call it a cynical eye, call it begrudgery , call it fundamentally bearish.

I'd hope that this thread becomes a place where we can discuss these things in a manner that boards.ie has come to expect.

JohnnyFlash

I'll get the ball rolling.

https://medium.com/@kaistinchcombe/decentralized-and-trustless-crypto-paradise-is-actually-a-medieval-hellhole-c1ca122efdec

Chancer3001

I think tether is the biggest elephant in the room.

Could ruin the investments for years if and when it hits the fan

SteelyDanJalapeno

What are your thoughts on trading crypto?

JohnnyFlash

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

What are your thoughts on trading crypto?

It’s fine if you see it for what it is: senseless gambling with long term prospects not good. EOS for example is valued more than SpaceX. One has launched rockets into space, the other is going to release some beta software in the next few weeks. That’s madness when you think about it.

JohnnyFlash

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I think tether is the biggest elephant in the room.

Could ruin the investments for years if and when it hits the fan

There’s days when tether trading makes up over 80% of the bitcoin market. Which is huge. There’s absolutely no new significant money going into crypto. Some people getting wiped out trying to short the market, but I presume they don’t come back after getting burned the 1st time. Bitfinex and tether literally run the crypto market at this stage. It’s an enormous fiasco in the making.

SteelyDanJalapeno

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

What are your thoughts on trading crypto?

It’s fine if you see it for what it is: senseless gambling with long term prospects not good. EOS for example is valued more than SpaceX. One has launched rockets into space, the other is going to release some beta software in the next few weeks. That’s madness when you think about it.

I disagree with your assessment on trading being senseless gambling with no good prospects, if you can read the charts anyway proficiently it's quite hard to lose money in this. The market the last year has been so very forgiving.

Your second point is irrelavant to my trading style and just copied from reddit so I'll go there and converse with that OP on that if I wanted to.

JohnnyFlash

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment on trading being senseless gambling with no good prospects, if you can read the charts anyway proficiently it's quite hard to lose money in this. The market the last year has been so very forgiving.

Your second point is irrelavant to my trading style and just copied from reddit so I'll go there and converse with that OP on that if I wanted to.

Cool. What does your reading of the charts predict is going to happen this month? Most people lose money on crypto, so I’d be interested in how you are bucking the trend.

SteelyDanJalapeno

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment on trading being senseless gambling with no good prospects, if you can read the charts anyway proficiently it's quite hard to lose money in this. The market the last year has been so very forgiving.

Your second point is irrelavant to my trading style and just copied from reddit so I'll go there and converse with that OP on that if I wanted to.

Cool. What does your reading of the charts predict is going to happen this month? Most people lose money on crypto, so I’d be interested in how you are bucking the trend.

It's quite difficult to predict the future in that sense imo. I wouldn't have the paddy losty skills. However I've very rarely lost a trade in the last 6 months buying the panics and selling the very predictable correction if you can understand these you will make a lot of money.

JohnnyFlash

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

It's quite difficult to predict the future in that sense imo. I wouldn't have the paddy losty skills. However I've very rarely lost a trade in the last 6 months buying the panics and selling the very predictable correction if you can understand these you will make a lot of money.

That’s not technical analysis or reading charts though. That’s buy the rumour and sell the news. Or pump and dump. Sure any Tom, Dick or Harry could do that.

SteelyDanJalapeno

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That’s not technical analysis or reading charts though. That’s buy the rumour and sell the news. Or pump and dump. Sure any Tom, Dick or Harry could do that.

I was genuinely interested in having a conversation on this with you, but it's post like this that show your agenda.

I'll go back to making money, with the other Tom, Dick and Harrys

JohnnyFlash

How can you use charts to predict the price of something that is patently manipulated using wash trading, magic tether money, exchange insider trading, and every other scam that were banned in conventional money markets? Like if the guys in Tether/Bitfinex print more tether then the price of bitcoin will go up. You, I, or any chancer on Twitter/Telegram/TradingView don’t have that visability. Or can’t predict which exchange will be hacked next. It’s a mass of completely random variables.

LoLth

I think you need to revise your discussion style there Johnny. maybe a smidge less dismissive?

JohnnyFlash

LoLth wrote: »

I think you need to revise your discussion style there Johnny. maybe a smidge less dismissive?

No probs, boss. I wasn’t implying that the poster was a chancer, but can see how that could be interpreted. Sorry poster!!!

JohnnyFlash

http://uk.businessinsider.com/centre-for-evidence-based-managements-martin-walker-on-blockchain-2018-5?r=US&IR=T

The British Parliament Treasury Committee is told that Blockchain is a 'pixie dust fad' and its benefits in finance are 'little to nothing'.

You’d have to wonder if the dude has a point. Blockchain has been around for 10 years and has little to no usecases. Ripple don’t actually use blockchain or their token for their software solution There is pretty much no use case that isn’t better served using a distributed database.

Nermal

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

There is pretty much no use case that isn’t better served using a distributed database.

The article you posted is good, it's quite the demolition job on the fanciful 'applications' of blockchains.

There is only one application: censorship resistant money. But it's one that has a decent chance of changing the world.

JohnnyFlash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkXuFeN-KMw

This is the head honcho of EOS. Worth €15 billion.

Chancer3001

I've questions about litepay with litecoin

So you'll get a credit card to spend litecoin.

Ok

But how does this increase the price of litecoin?

People buy it . Load the card. Then sell it straight away ....

unkel

Good thread, good to get a bit of balance but also good to have it separate from other threads. Thanks for starting it, JohnnyFlash.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I'll get the ball rolling.

https://medium.com/@kaistinchcombe/decentralized-and-trustless-crypto-paradise-is-actually-a-medieval-hellhole-c1ca122efdec

Did you google the author?

Looks like he lost his patience trying unsuccessfully to convince his elderly customers to buy into crypto. Frustrated, he sold all his own crypto too and then turned into full sceptic

JohnnyFlash

Which part of his post did you disagree with most?

manu2009

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I've questions about litepay with litecoin

So you'll get a credit card to spend litecoin.

Ok

But how does this increase the price of litecoin?

People buy it . Load the card. Then sell it straight away ....

Litepay has ceased operation but their are companies who have created similar services so you can topup a debit card and use it to spend your crypto.

Their's currently a push towards blockchain banking where you can have a bank account that allows DD's, standing orders etc. and also have the ability to easily buy or sell crypto directly.

It's not about affecting the price of the coin, it's about offering new financial solutions and providing customers with more choice and less scrutiny than traditional banks, for example a bank account closed for being connected with crypto transactions.

Chancer3001

Yeah so everyone who s saying buy litecoin , it'll do unreal when it gets litepay ... They're totally misguided

JohnnyFlash

https://www.wired.com/story/when-the-blockchain-skeptic-walked-into-the-lions-den/

Great article about some dude at the Consensus conference pouring cold water on the need for blockchain in the vast majority of use cases being pitched at the moment.

grindle

Raise your standards for "great articles" - having watched it live, Song came across as a petulant child who wasn't getting his lollipop. He's right about the magical blockchain dust but his analogy about every single idea whether he's analysed it or not (likely not based on the debate) being a hammer looking for a nail is off the mark.
Odd choice of BTC shill tbh, he's fúcked up numerous debates - they should have tried for Andreas. Maybe they did but he didn't care.
I presume you're aware Jimmy Song is a Bitcoin maximalist? His main concern which he's repeated ad nauseam is that every other project's valuation is a value that's been stolen or siphoned from his BTC coffers.
He's that simple.

JohnnyFlash

grindle wrote: »

Raise your standards for "great articles" - having watched it live, Song came across as a petulant child who wasn't getting his lollipop. He's right about the magical blockchain dust but his analogy about every single idea whether he's analysed it or not (likely not based on the debate) being a hammer looking for a nail is off the mark.
Odd choice of BTC shill tbh, he's fúcked up numerous debates - they should have tried for Andreas. Maybe they did but he didn't care.
I presume you're aware Jimmy Song is a Bitcoin maximalist? His main concern which he's repeated ad nauseam is that every other project's valuation is a value that's been stolen or siphoned from his BTC coffers.
He's that simple.

I read that he was a maximalist. Which is even more propesterous an ideology than most other crypto advocates. Bitcoin hasn’t a single compelling use case, and is a disaster for the environment. I would agree with his assessment though that most ICO and blockchain startups will be gone in 5 years. It’s a cumbersome and inefficient technology with almost no use cases that can’t be handled better with other technologies. I mean blockchain and GDPR are fundamentally at odds with each other.

grindle

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

...blockchain and GDPR are fundamentally at odds with each other.

This is one thing zero-knowledge proofs will help to fix. Data needn't be public and GDPR laws can be adhered to with destruction of keys. GDPR is an interesting obstacle for blockchain, I wouldn't see it as being fundamentally at odds - GDPR is a section of law rather than some opposing worldview vs blockchain.

I'd also agree that most will fold in 5 years. It's true of the average business, never mind a hyper-speculative system like crypto.

For all the downsides to BTC it does have at least one use case in that it's the most secure public record of account on earth. Whether that's useful or not is up to the potential buyers, but despite your scepticism re: exchanges, there's certainly a lot of action happening on the OTC markets:



Whatever about his prediction there's money flowing in, just not through our plebby exchange channels.

JohnnyFlash

What’s up with Bitfinex and Tether? Phil Potter has left Tether, Whalepool have asked their members to stop using it because of new know your customer regulations, Tether printed another quarter of a billion dollars, but their daily volume is just about level with their market cap. It was up to more that 2 times that just a few weeks ago. Binance are still enthusiastic users, but have tapered off slightly. And anothwe big user of Tether, OKex, has announced they’ve stopped fiat withdrawals.

Confused. Something funny is happening, but I can’t quite work it out. Wish Bitfinex’d was still tweeting. Had a great insight into them.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Bitcoin hasn’t a single compelling use case,

So are this bank wasting their time in their real world application of bitcoin?

That's just one example....that exists because SWIFT is downright criminal.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

.. and is a disaster for the environment.

Firstly, by comparison with visa (inclusive of ALL costs)? Secondly, as LN usage increases, comsumption on a per-transaction basis goes down.
LINK

Other than that, if electricity consumption is still an issue for you, there are some up and coming crypto's that are PoS based rather than PoW - with little in the way of electricity consumption....but then you have summarily dismissed all altcoins....

sexmag

http://www.businessinsider.com/lmax-exchange-launches-cryptocurrency-exchange-for-institutional-investors-2018-5?r=UK&IR=T

There's is potentionally a massive influx of new money coming (which is something johnny constantly contests about)

I feel the current drop is the whales manipulation of the market to get back in at lower prices before the new money comes in and brings everything up again.

It's been said for the last 6 months that banks and hedge funds etc are coming and it seems sooner rasther than later

JohnnyFlash

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/bitcoin-manipulation-is-said-to-be-focus-of-u-s-criminal-probe

U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation

Stoko

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/bitcoin-manipulation-is-said-to-be-focus-of-u-s-criminal-probe

U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation

is that not just another manipulation of the market?
the masses get worried, sell happens etc..

sexmag

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/bitcoin-manipulation-is-said-to-be-focus-of-u-s-criminal-probe

U.S. Launches Criminal Probe into Bitcoin Price Manipulation

The Justice Department has opened a criminal probe into whether traders are manipulating the price of Bitcoin and other digital currencies, dramatically ratcheting up U.S. scrutiny of red-hot markets that critics say are rife with misconduct, according to four people familiar with the matter.

I stoped reading after that, at least site who these "4" people are, could be any person who reads a paper :rolleyes:

JohnnyFlash

sexmag wrote: »

The Justice Department has opened a criminal probe into whether traders are manipulating the price of Bitcoin and other digital currencies, dramatically ratcheting up U.S. scrutiny of red-hot markets that critics say are rife with misconduct, according to four people familiar with the matter.

I stoped reading after that, at least site who these "4" people are, could be any person who reads a paper :rolleyes:

It's Bloomberg, dude, not the National Enquirer. It comes only days after Phil Potter packed his bags and left Tether/Bitfinex. You could make some working assumptions as to why that might be the case.



Tether is 2.5 billion fake dollars being used by Bitfinex and Binance to manipulate the price of Bitcoin via altcoins. On days where volumes are low, that's pretty much all the money providing liquidity in crypto.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It comes only days after Phil Potter packed his bags and left Tether/Bitfinex. You could make some working assumptions as to why that might be the case.

Tether is 2.5 billion fake dollars being used by Bitfinex and Binance to manipulate the price of Bitcoin via altcoins. On days where volumes are low, that's pretty much all the money providing liquidity in crypto.

I disagree with you on plenty - but the exception is Tether. Phil Potter found himself listed in the Paradise Papers alongside another Tether co-founder.

I hope there is a criminal investigation and that the focus of that investigation is Tether. It's a boil that needs to be lanced for the good of crypto in the long run.

sabat

sexmag wrote: »

There's is potentionally a massive influx of new money coming (which is something johnny constantly contests about)

I feel the current drop is the whales manipulation of the market to get back in at lower prices before the new money comes in and brings everything up again.

So you're waiting for "new money" to enter the space to bring prices back up. Dude you are literally describing a ponzi scheme.

lostboy75

sabat wrote: »

Dude you are literally describing a ponzi scheme.

Or any stock exchange,

Chancer3001

sabat wrote: »

So you're waiting for "new money" to enter the space to bring prices back up. Dude you are literally describing a ponzi scheme.

How?

Say I buy Apple shares. Unless new money and new people come trying to buy my shares, the price won t go up.

The price doesn't just go up cos they invent something good.
It goes up cos after the invention more people want their shares.

JohnnyFlash

http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/papers/cryptorisks.pdf

Devastating article on the futility of crypto currency. Now this isn’t written by some chancer on Medium or Reddit, but by a professor from Berkeley writing in the journal ‘Communications of the ACM’. Which I’ve found out is considered the premier computer science journal in the world.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/papers/cryptorisks.pdf

Devastating article on the futility of crypto currency. Now this isn’t written by some chancer on Medium or Reddit, but by a professor from Berkeley writing in the journal ‘Communications of the ACM’. Which I’ve found out is considered the premier computer science journal in the world.

The first thing to say Johnny - is that there isn't a day that goes by over the past 6 months where some expert doesn't come out on one or other side of the divide on crypto. There are respected people voicing their opinions on each side of the debate - not just 'some chancer on Medium or Reddit' as you put it.

I read the article. There's nothing new here. In some cases, he identifies issues which developers are currently working on - OR - that have been solved in blockchain 2.0 (ethereum) - OR - solved in blockchain 3.0 (EOS, Cardano, IOTA, etc.).

The Steve Jobs example re. stolen credit card is a flaw in the conventional system - not with crypto!

He states: "The only way Bitcoin could reduce its power consumption is through a massive price collapse".
Not true. What of Lightning Network and similar off-chain solutions! Not even a mention.

On censorship resistance he states that with conventional systems, nobody could possibly transfer money to wikileaks - as if that was a bad thing! It's central to the establishment of bitcoin in the very first instance. Of course, he highlights criminal activity - but never once acknowledges that there may be a good side to censorship resistance! How is that equitable?

On storing coin in an online wallet, you don't have to use one! Again, does he once mention hardware wallets? NO.

On the deflationary argument, it has been rubbished many times now. It's inflationary currencies like we have right now that pick peoples pockets..and the FIAT in your pocket is losing value as you read this. A system that encourages people to save vs. the current system where large sections of society are up to their eyeballs in debt!

On systemic risks, is he going to come out and declare that when we have government issued centralised crypto's such as usd coin, etc. (as that day is coming)?...because that will be a hell of a lot more risky!


What is clear from the article is that he has not acknowledged any redeeming factors whatsoever - nor work that's being done to address some of the flaws that he outlined. That's irresponsible at best - but seems prejudiced at worst.

smacl

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/papers/cryptorisks.pdf

Devastating article on the futility of crypto currency. Now this isn’t written by some chancer on Medium or Reddit, but by a professor from Berkeley writing in the journal ‘Communications of the ACM’. Which I’ve found out is considered the premier computer science journal in the world.

Communications of the ACM is indeed one of the premier CS journals out there, though if you take the time to have a look at the articles on this journal that relate to blockchain, you'll note the majority are positive. It is a very busy (and IMHO excellent) journal, but it carries a huge amount of material and many often contradictory views. If you decide to cherry pick and search hard enough, you'll find negative views on many subjects.

kaymin

This event raises doubt about the integrity of blockchain:

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/bitcoin-51-percent-attack-crypto-jack

'The method used by the malicious miners is known as a ‘51 per cent attack’ whereby the attacker gains control of the majority of the network’s total computing power.

With this power, the attacker then can reverse their own transactions, effectively spending the same coins twice and undermining the entire transparent nature of the blockchain.

The resulting attack strikes at the whole point of cryptocurrencies in terms of transparency and authenticity, making it hard to keep track of transactions.'

smacl

kaymin wrote: »

This event raises doubt about the integrity of blockchain

Not exactly new and not something to be too worried about on larger coins or POS coins. Pretty weak article too IMHO, far better write-up of the same event here.

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

This event raises doubt about the integrity of blockchain

This is one of the main reasons BTC is so valuable. Performing a prolonged attack against it is prohibitively expensive. Doesn't discount massively distributed blockchain at all.

JohnnyFlash

grindle wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons BTC is so valuable. Performing a prolonged attack against it is prohibitively expensive. Doesn't discount massively distributed blockchain at all.

It’s prohibitivly expensive because it uses a morally repugnant amount of electricity to enforce that level of security of the chain.

unkel

You're fighting the wrong fight, JohnnyFlash!

Maybe use some of your considerable drive and intellect to get us all to use more renewable electricity? Scotland is aiming for 100% renewable electricity by 2020. They won't make it, but it's a glorious goal and they won't be a million miles off. It's even easier for use here in Ireland as our wind is almost as good and our sun is much better.

kaymin

unkel wrote: »

You're fighting the wrong fight, JohnnyFlash!

Maybe use some of your considerable drive and intellect to get us all to use more renewable electricity? Scotland is aiming for 100% renewable electricity by 2020. They won't make it, but it's a glorious goal and they won't be a million miles off. It's even easier for use here in Ireland as our wind is almost as good and our sun is much better.

You still have to pay for renewable energy.

It's a fair point though - if high expense is the main barrier to 51% hacks then doesn't that damage the prospects for the whole crypto / blockchain project?

unkel

kaymin wrote: »

You still have to pay for renewable energy.

Sure, but once you use 100% renewable electricity, the argument that cryptos use a "morally repugnant amount of electricity" is gone.

makeorbrake

kaymin wrote: »

This event raises doubt about the integrity of blockchain:

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/bitcoin-51-percent-attack-crypto-jack

For anyone that follows crypto, the idea of a 51% attack is known to all. Clearly it can be an issue - but it's not an issue for networks that are big enough eg. Bitcoin.

kaymin wrote:

It's a fair point though - if high expense is the main barrier to 51% hacks then doesn't that damage the prospects for the whole crypto / blockchain project?

You're making the mistake of lumping all PoS/3rd generation crypto's in with that as well. They're not expensive to run.

JohnnyFlash wrote:

It’s prohibitively expensive because it uses a morally repugnant amount of electricity to enforce that level of security of the chain.

The important point here => 'In Your Opinion'.

You don't see the need for a totally immutable blockchain such as bitcoin but many of us here do. Will there be space for numerous such crypto's - the same as bitcoin - probably not - but the argument is being made that there's space for one. Of course as above, many of the other crypto's are less energy intensive. I think christmas tree lights are a waste, you think the btc blockchain is a waste yet it fulfils an important function.

JohnnyFlash

unkel wrote: »

Sure, but once you use 100% renewable electricity, the argument that cryptos use a "morally repugnant amount of electricity" is gone.

I think this sums up the grotesque nature of bitcoin mining in a slightly grotesque way.



Bitcoin mining is about completing an enormous amount of simple sums in the hope of solving a cryptography puzzle. You are rewarded for your commitment by getting free bitcoins. This promotes centralisation - the bigger you are the more likely you are to get the free bitcoins, and it also promotes the use of the cheapest forms of electricity to give you the competitive edge. Mining ends up in an evolutionary arms race — a Red Queen’s race, where you run as fast as you can to stay in the same place — leading to ever-increasing power usage, for about seven transactions a second maximum, and two to four in practice. Bitcoin will get more inefficient with time.

With every other technology, the economic motivation is to reduce energy costs. But with Bitcoin, you make your bitcoins by spending as absolutely much energy as you can throw at the problem.More efficient mining hardware comes out all the time — but it’s thencompeting against other mining hardware of the same model, and the efficiency improvements don’t advance anything.

Bitcoin mining already uses more electricity than the entire island of Ireland (home to some pretty big DC’s and firms like Intel). For what? So people can speculate on the price? It has no utility, is dreadful as a form of payment, is not anonymous, and is having an immediate impact on the environment. Hell, there’s figures saying that bitcoin mining energy consumption will overtake all solar PV generation (IN THE WORLD!!!) by the end of 2019.

GUBU - Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizzare, Unprecedented.

sexmag

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I think this sums up the grotesque nature of bitcoin mining in a slightly grotesque way.



Bitcoin mining is about completing an enormous amount of simple sums in the hope of solving a cryptography puzzle. You are rewarded for your commitment by getting free bitcoins. This promotes centralisation - the bigger you are the more likely you are to get the free bitcoins, and it also promotes the use of the cheapest forms of electricity to give you the competitive edge. Mining ends up in an evolutionary arms race — a Red Queen’s race, where you run as fast as you can to stay in the same place — leading to ever-increasing power usage, for about seven transactions a second maximum, and two to four in practice. Bitcoin will get more inefficient with time.

With every other technology, the economic motivation is to reduce energy costs. But with Bitcoin, you make your bitcoins by spending as absolutely much energy as you can throw at the problem.More efficient mining hardware comes out all the time — but it’s thencompeting against other mining hardware of the same model, and the efficiency improvements don’t advance anything.

Bitcoin mining already uses more electricity than the entire island of Ireland (home to some pretty big DC’s and firms like Intel). For what? So people can speculate on the price? It has no utility, is dreadful as a form of payment, is not anonymous, and is having an immediate impact on the environment. Hell, there’s figures saying that bitcoin mining energy consumption will overtake all solar PV generation (IN THE WORLD!!!) by the end of 2019.

GUBU - Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizzare, Unprecedented.

You are aware Bitcoin isn't the only crypto currency in the world and as previous posters have said there are alt coins that use far less electricity, what angle do you prefer to take about why you are here?
That you find the cryptocurrency mentality interesting
Or
You care for the environment and want to try and help by lambasting Bitcoin.

For someone who doesn't like or even really want cryptos around you spend an awful amount of time in these forums putting them down, would your energy not be better spent trying to help the environment, maybe you could teach a class on blockchain and cryptos as you seem to have an extensive knowledge about it, put it too good use

JohnnyFlash

sexmag wrote: »

You are aware Bitcoin isn't the only crypto currency in the world and as previous posters have said there are alt coins that use far less electricity, what angle do you prefer to take about why you are here?
That you find the cryptocurrency mentality interesting
Or
You care for the environment and want to try and help by lambasting Bitcoin.

For someone who doesn't like or even really want cryptos around you spend an awful amount of time in these forums putting them down, would your energy not be better spent trying to help the environment, maybe you could teach a class on blockchain and cryptos as you seem to have an extensive knowledge about it, put it too good use

I’m aware there are other coins, and that some are claiming that they use less power because they use different forms of proof. Any proof of work model will always result in a power-consumption arms race though, as you are rewarded based on the amount of work you complete - more energy consumption = more reward. So proof of work is doomed. Having more power is great in a Formula One car. It’s absolutely futile as a proposed method of payment, or store of value though. That’s why I believe the price of Bitcoin will collapse.

I spend around 10-15 minutes on this forum about twice a week. Same as I do on the GAA forum. I’m Bringing some much-needed reality to the place - the rest of it appears to be an almost religious fervour in the power of crypto currencies. Finally, I don’t think it belongs in investing. It’s gambling.