8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

Itwasntme123 is insisting that anyone who cannot get an abortion in Kilkenny should come to Clonmel.
Likewise itwasntme123 insists (read the post) that if your GP is on the no abortion list that you must transfer to Clonmel.
I’ve pointed out that that’s not possible at all for public patients.
I’ve asked itwasntme123 to confirm that he/she is speaking on behalf of public health services in Clonmel.
I think I’m perfectly clear. What exactly do you not understand and I’ll clarify?

well as you now talking about GP led abortions what is the significance of the hospital in kilkenny? do you think ALL the GPs in kilkenny will refuse to participate?

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Most countries with abortion have higher maternal deaths per 100,000 compared to Ireland. Yes campaigners lie that the 8th cost lives, this is not true.

The 8th has cost lives. Or are you still denying that? Now perhaps you can answer the question I asked? How has the 8th contributed positively to those figures?

Zubeneschamali

inter arma wrote: »

Eh, John, Google's decision to not accept ads from either side means precisely that they are not becoming "embroiled in the campaign".

McGuirk pushed his budget into a private company unregulated by Irish law to dodge the rules which apply to RTE, TV3 and print media here in Ireland.

Only to find that the private company don't want his money, because they don't want to be seen to be helping people dodge the rules, it's bad PR.

So now he's crying that they are unfair, and wants someone to regulate them!

RobertKK

Flying Fox wrote: »

This makes absolutely no sense. Smacks of desperation.

It is is even said in the pro repeal Irish Times that what Google has done is unprecedented and without a proper explanation.

If you wanted further evidence of whom the Google move favours, look no further than the reaction of Yes campaigners and supporters, who wholeheartedly welcomed and applauded the decision.

The reasons for the decision, however, remain a mystery. Google declined to supply any rationale, or to answer a series of detailed questions from The Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/google-abortion-vote-ad-ban-unprecedented-so-why-did-they-do-it-1.3489617?mode=amp

The same article said the No side had this planned since last year so to do this two weeks before the referendum without any reason is foreign influence as Google knew this all along. It was a move done to favour the Yes campaign.

.......

This post has been deleted.

fxotoole

RobertKK wrote: »

https://twitter.com/medicsfor8th/status/993558449219883008?s=21

This healthcare speel for Yes doesn’t add up. Having abortion widely available doesn’t lead to better health outcomes.

Au contraire.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/legalizing-abortions-does-not-increase-abortion-rates-it-just-makes-them-safer/

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well as you now talking about GP led abortions what is the significance of the hospital in kilkenny? do you think ALL the GPs in kilkenny will refuse to participate?

You need to catch up on the thread. Also public patients wanting a surgical abortion on the public system will need to be referred by their GP. ( I foolishly assume you know this).
Advising, no insisting,(as this poster has) that public patients who’s GP will exercise their right to not engage with abortion services that they can all transfer to GPs in Clonmel, and that Clonmel hospital will see them all, is just priceless.

Zubeneschamali

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence

Google are a private outfit, and don't have to take McGuirk's money if they don't think associating with the likes of him is good for their image.

(Don't you love how Robert tries so hard not to own any opinion in case it is proven radioactive later. When this get buried in a pile of refutations, he will note that HE never said it, he just pointed out that "It was said").

Hurrache

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So now he's crying that they are unfair, and wants someone to regulate them!

His choice has been taken away from him!

What does he want?
Pro-choice!
When does he want it?
When it suits him!

kylith

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Thank you, Rezident, for spelling it out in the clear.

Even the Catholic Bishop's statement on the matter buries this simple assertion in a ton of verbiage, the closest they come is to say We believe that human life is sacred from conception until natural death.

The fact is that they do not give a crap about the United nations, fundamental human rights, effects on society, and all the other guff in that statement - that is camouflage. They believe zygotes have little magical souls and must be born so they can be baptized and saved. That is historically why the Catholic Church has a bee in its bonnet about zygotes in comparison to the other Christian Churches.

They are in direct contradiction of the bible.

splinter65

fxotoole wrote: »

Au contraire.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/legalizing-abortions-does-not-increase-abortion-rates-it-just-makes-them-safer/

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

gmisk

RobertKK wrote: »

It is is even said in the pro repeal Irish Times that what Google has done is unprecedented and without a proper explanation.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/google-abortion-vote-ad-ban-unprecedented-so-why-did-they-do-it-1.3489617?mode=amp

Ah yes the pro repeal irish times which gives only pro repeal folks like...errr Breda O Brien a platform......


The same one that John Mc Guirk urged people to boycott and then posted links to stories on his twitter.....ah come on

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

You need to catch up on the thread. Also public patients wanting a surgical abortion on the public system will need to be referred by their GP. ( I foolishly assume you know this).

If it is at the stage where it requires a surgical abortion then why wouldn't a GP refer them?

splinter65 wrote: »

Advising, no insisting,(as this poster has) that public patients who’s GP will exercise their right to not engage with abortion services that they can all transfer to GPs in Clonmel, and that Clonmel hospital will see them all, is just priceless.

again you are mixing up GPs and hospitals. Before 12 weeks gestation no hospital is required.

inter arma

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

Nonsense. How could Google be blamed for influencing the vote by not becoming involved in it? By that logic, you could also 'blame' Coca-Cola for influencing the referendum by not including yes and no labels on their various bottles.

kylith

splinter65 wrote: »

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

Perhaps women whose pregnancy would interfere with their chances of living go to the U.K. for terminations.

I know if I were 6 weeks pregnant and diagnosed with cancer that couldn’t be treated for another 2 months i’d Be on a plane to the U.K. so fast it’d make your head spin.

It’s easy to say that no abortion leads to low maternal deaths when the women who would have died take care of the problem abroad. I wonder how many women would die if they couldn’t travel.

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

Maternal deaths is not the only measure of a system.

ArmaniJeanss

splinter65 wrote: »

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

I don't see that 'one of the best countries overall for maternal care' and 'some women die because maternal care is poor in specific aspects' are necessarily exclusive concepts.

A bit like how a football team can statistically be 'one of the best defences going' yet also be 'below average at defending near post corners'.

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If it is at the stage where it requires a surgical abortion then why wouldn't a GP refer them?




again you are mixing up GPs and hospitals. Before 12 weeks gestation no hospital is required.

The thread is currently discussing a list of GPs who are not going to refer women for abortions.
You know that it’s not compulsory for any GP.
Not everyone will be suitable for the abortion pill.
Not everyone will want the abortion pill.
A surgical abortion will have to be done at the hospital.
Even before 12 weeks.
I would have thought this was clear.

amcalester

inter arma wrote: »

Nonsense. How could Google be blamed for influencing the vote by not becoming involved in it? By that logic, you could also 'blame' Coca-Cola for influencing the referendum by not including yes and no labels on their various bottles.

No Campaigner: Hey Google stop influencing our Referendum!

Google: Eh, we're not. We're not involved, we've completely stepped back from it.

No Campaigner: Exactly, now get involved so that you're no longer influencing things.

Google: Huh?

fxotoole

splinter65 wrote: »

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

What exactly are you saying here? That Ireland has no place being in the top 10 countries for maternal care because we don't provide abortion services? Are you saying we are way behind the times and need to start providing abortion services to qualify for the top 10?

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

The thread is currently discussing a list of GPs who are not going to refer women for abortions.
You know that it’s not compulsory for any GP.
Not everyone will be suitable for the abortion pill.
Not everyone will want the abortion pill.
A surgical abortion will have to be done at the hospital.
Even before 12 weeks.
I would have thought this was clear.

you think some women would prefer a surgical abortion to a medical one?

If a woman is more than 12 weeks pregnant then the GP will refer them to a maternity hospital. what happens after that is not down to the GP. they are not referring them for an abortion they are just referring them, the same as they do for all pregnant women.

If a woman is less than 12 weeks pregnant and has a medical card and their GP does not provide abortion services then the HSE will have to put in place a system that allows them to go a GP that does. You act like these are massive problems that are insurmountable.

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

How do you explain Ireland being in the top 10 countries in the world for maternal care fxtoole? And we with no abortion care?

As Peter Boylan said what does it say about our attitude to maternal care when not having women die is the bar we set ourselves,.

pleas advice

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The abortion pills are only 93% effective at 10 weeks, and the effectiveness drops off after that. You can be given a stronger dose, but I'd imagine the majority of abortions between 10 to 12 weeks would be surgical, given it's 100% effective.
So that could be somewhere around 1000 surgical abortions per year

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

God help anyone who brings a legal challenge on this basis. They'd be laughed out of the court faster than the two lads who said CCTV cameras invalidated the marriage equality referendum!

ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

The abortion pills are only 93% effective at 10 weeks, and the effectiveness drops off after that. You can be given a stronger dose, but I'd imagine the majority of abortions between 10 to 12 weeks would be surgical, given it's 100% effective.
So that could be somewhere around 1000 surgical abortions per year

The threshold in the UK is 12 weeks AFAIR. If not it's pretty close
Below 12 is medical and above 12 is generally surgical.

With a 12 week threshold there would be very little surgical abortion needed. You could knock at least one, possibly 2 0s off the end of your 1000 figure IMO

Hurrache

Anti choice organisations still insisting there's no outside influence or money coming in.

Ronan Mullen - Hold my beer!
https://twitter.com/BrianLeonardFR/status/994321975291105280

Frank Bullitt

Declan Ganley is now having a mini meltdown on twitter. Its a brilliant sight to see a failed politician lose his marbles.

fxotoole

splinter65 wrote: »

The thread is currently discussing a list of GPs who are not going to refer women for abortions.
You know that it’s not compulsory for any GP.
Not everyone will be suitable for the abortion pill.
Not everyone will want the abortion pill.
A surgical abortion will have to be done at the hospital.
Even before 12 weeks.
I would have thought this was clear.

Maybe any legislation that's enacted (if the referendum passes) will make it compulsory for all GPS to comply? We don't know what wording any potential law is going to have, so until that time comes, you're just speculating.

yourdeadwright

I wonder if NO wins what will happen , It won't win , i don't think it'll be even close but would you say the YES campaign would accept the nation vote ?
I'd imagine there would be huge marches like never seen here before,
All the mayhem that ensued after the Belfast rape trail would be multiplied by 10

ELM327

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I wonder if NO wins what will happen , It won't win , i don't think it'll be even close but would you say the YES campaign would accept the nation vote ?
I'd imagine there would be huge marches like never seen here before,
All the mayhem that ensued after the Belfast rape trail would be multiplied by 10

If the no campaign wins I predict the following:

• Making the referendum commission a full time outfit
• Giving them power to remove falsehoods, lies, and inappropriate campaigning - posters, emails, online
• A rerun of the referendum within 18 months, but this time with no propoganda and out and out lies from the No side allowed (see above)
• A landslide YES victory.