8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given we are talking about 4-5000 abortions a year, the vast majority of which will be medical abortions via pills, the requirement for surgical abortions will be in 100's for the entire country. they will most likely be handled as part of the regular maternity care system. There will be no need for "abortion clinics", the numbers wont justify them. Even less need for private "abortion clinics", the numbers definitely wont justify them.

You don’t think there will be an increase in abortions because they will be instantly accessible?
You don’t think any woman was forced to see a pregnancy that she didn’t want through to the end because she didn’t have the time/money to get to the UK?
Of course there will be an increase in abortions.
People need to be careful when deriding one sides propaganda that they don’t believe their own.
Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the pregnancy could have been made to disappear with no questions asked as easily as it will be.

fxotoole

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I am exceptionally disappointed to find my own doctor on a list of doctors in Donegal urging people to vote No. Everyone down to my grandparents use this doctor, it looks like I'm going to have to change.

Where is this list? I'd be interested in seeing it

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

You don’t think there will be an increase in abortions because they will be instantly accessible?
You don’t think any woman was forced to see a pregnancy that she didn’t want through to the end because she didn’t have the time/money to get to the UK?
Of course there will be an increase in abortions.
People need to be careful when deriding one sides propaganda that they don’t believe their own.
Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the pregnancy could have been made to disappear with no questions asked as easily as it will be.

an increase? possibly. A significant increase? I doubt it. Unless you know something that suggests otherwise.

Ave Sodalis

fxotoole wrote: »

Where is this list? I'd be interested in seeing it

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/05/10/abortion-is-not-a-solution-14-donegal-gps-urge-no-vote/

.......

This post has been deleted.

ELM327

splinter65 wrote: »

You don’t think there will be an increase in abortions because they will be instantly accessible?
You don’t think any woman was forced to see a pregnancy that she didn’t want through to the end because she didn’t have the time/money to get to the UK?
Of course there will be an increase in abortions.
People need to be careful when deriding one sides propaganda that they don’t believe their own.
Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the pregnancy could have been made to disappear with no questions asked as easily as it will be.

" Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the "

Now that's a great sentence.
The next words could vary from... "if the Irish team hadnt qualified for Italia 90", to "if their parent was rostered to work on valentines/birthday/anniversary"

Should we outlaw soccer, ceremonies etc?

PhoenixParker

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given we are talking about 4-5000 abortions a year, the vast majority of which will be medical abortions via pills, the requirement for surgical abortions will be in 100's for the entire country. they will most likely be handled as part of the regular maternity care system. There will be no need for "abortion clinics", the numbers wont justify them. Even less need for private "abortion clinics", the numbers definitely wont justify them.

I think there will be clinics offering abortion services, probably alongside other family planning and sexual health services. Some people won't want to go to their gp
for whatever reason and some people simply don't have a gp.

GPs also don't have ultrasound machines to confirm gestation so that's another issue.

Hospitals already carry out dozens of abortion procedures every week. It's the same treatment as for miscarriage if a miscarriage requires treatment. Surgical abortions, were probably looking at 500-1000 a year, 10 to 20 a week spread around a dozen maternity hospitals. It's unlikely to be a massive additional stress.

splinter65

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Clonmel, they can all come here. I'd be happy to help in any way I could. Let them come here in fact I insist, if they have a gp who is not open to any other opinion only his/her own, come here. We will help.

I hope that answers the possibly problem in Kilkenny (Clonmel is only 40 minutes from Kilkenny - you could get the bus).

When you say we, who do you mean? You are speaking for HSE in Clonmel?
Clonmel is prepared to take on the entire possible termination of pregnancy services for the whole of Kilkenny Carlow and the whole of Tipperary?
If someone in Kilkenny or Carlow or Thurles or Nenagh on a Medical Card in fact anyone outside of Clonmel has a problem with their GP then you do of course realize that they can’t move their GP at all never mind move to a GP in Clonmel?

SusieBlue

splinter65 wrote: »

You don’t think there will be an increase in abortions because they will be instantly accessible?
You don’t think any woman was forced to see a pregnancy that she didn’t want through to the end because she didn’t have the time/money to get to the UK?
Of course there will be an increase in abortions.
People need to be careful when deriding one sides propaganda that they don’t believe their own.
Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the pregnancy could have been made to disappear with no questions asked as easily as it will be.

On the other hand you also probably currently have women who are having second thoughts about their decision feeling immense pressure to travel and go through with the procedure, because of the expense of having booked flights & accommodation going to waste.

seamus

ELM327 wrote: »

" Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the "

Now that's a great sentence.
The next words could vary from... "if the Irish team hadnt qualified for Italia 90", to "if their parent was rostered to work on valentines/birthday/anniversary"

Should we outlaw soccer, ceremonies etc?

There are also lots of people walking around today who wouldn't be here if Hitler hadn't murdered millions of people.

Oooh...ethical quandries. Do we thank Hitler that these people are alive or hate him because millions of others are dead...?

Except it's not. "You wouldn't be here if history was different" is basically a tautology. It's meaningless. It doesn't reflect positively or negatively on any historical incident.

PhoenixParker

splinter65 wrote: »

You don’t think there will be an increase in abortions because they will be instantly accessible?
You don’t think any woman was forced to see a pregnancy that she didn’t want through to the end because she didn’t have the time/money to get to the UK?
Of course there will be an increase in abortions.
People need to be careful when deriding one sides propaganda that they don’t believe their own.
Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the pregnancy could have been made to disappear with no questions asked as easily as it will be.

We have no idea how many Irish women have an abortion every year. We know the number who give Irish addresses in the UK. We have no idea about those giving UK addresses & ordering pills online. I suspect the true number is around 6k.

The pro life side will claim a massive jump whatever happens.

Studies around the world suggest that free legal abortion doesn't increase abortion rates, it makes it safer. Effective long lasting contraception is what lowers abortion rates. We're not the first country to liberalize abortion laws.

splinter65

ELM327 wrote: »

" Loads of people walking around Ireland today who wouldn’t be here if the "

Now that's a great sentence.
The next words could vary from... "if the Irish team hadnt qualified for Italia 90", to "if their parent was rostered to work on valentines/birthday/anniversary"

Should we outlaw soccer, ceremonies etc?

So, no Irish woman ever persisted with an unwanted pregnancy because of the unavailability of abortion in Ireland.
Well what’s all this about then?

ELM327

seamus wrote: »

There are also lots of people walking around today who wouldn't be here if Hitler hadn't murdered millions of people.

Oooh...ethical quandries. Do we thank Hitler that these people are alive or hate him because millions of others are dead...?

Except it's not. "You wouldn't be here if history was different" is basically a tautology. It's meaningless. It doesn't reflect positively or negatively on any historical incident.

I wouldn't be here except for my mother was moved here when she was very young in the aftermath of WW2.
There would possibly be an "alternate me" somewhere in france or germany. Or maybe not. Maybe if she hadn't have met my father here, she wouldn't have met anyone on the continent. Or at an earlier or later time.
Or they could have argued on the day I was conceived.

Or the Late Late (or whatever people watched then) ended 30 seconds earlier or later.

It's absolute whataboutery and buffoonery to debate the "people who wouldnt be here".

.......

This post has been deleted.

Zubeneschamali

splinter65 wrote: »

Kilkenny is the maternity hospital for a huge area. If there are to be no abortions there(a la this doctor quoted in The Times) then where will they be?

He did not say that there will be no abortions, he said there would be no new clinics popping up, that the hospital would not be converting space to a clinic, there would be no special wards for abortions, and most abortions would be out-patient care.

He did not specifically say this in the article, but the clear message is that surgical abortion would simply be handled like any other surgical case at the hospital - it would not need a dedicated clinic or special ward.

Here is the article again.

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

When you say we, who do you mean? You are speaking for HSE in Clonmel?
Clonmel is prepared to take on the entire possible termination of pregnancy services for the whole of Kilkenny Carlow and the whole of Tipperary?
If someone in Kilkenny or Carlow or Thurles or Nenagh on a Medical Card in fact anyone outside of Clonmel has a problem with their GP then you do of course realize that they can’t move their GP at all never mind move to a GP in Clonmel?

what fantasy situation have you invented for your outrage? you're not being clear.

inter arma

John McGuirk: "Google knows full well that its decision puts the No side in the referendum at a big disadvantage. For them to become embroiled in the campaign in this way is wholly unacceptable and its decision should be immediately reversed."

Eh, John, Google's decision to not accept ads from either side means precisely that they are not becoming "embroiled in the campaign".

RobertKK

https://twitter.com/medicsfor8th/status/993558449219883008?s=21

This healthcare speel for Yes doesn’t add up. Having abortion widely available doesn’t lead to better health outcomes.

PhoenixParker

Ah yes, when death is the only valid measure if maternal outcomes . . .

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

This healthcare speel for Yes doesn’t add up. Having abortion widely available doesn’t lead to better health outcomes.

Death is only one type of outcome.

Data worldwide proves that patients who are fully engaged and informed about their treatment and given choices about that treatment (even if the choice is somewhat illusionary), have better outcomes than patients who feel like their treatment is being "done" to them without much consultation.

RobertKK

inter arma wrote: »

John McGuirk: "Google knows full well that its decision puts the No side in the referendum at a big disadvantage. For them to become embroiled in the campaign in this way is wholly unacceptable and its decision should be immediately reversed."

Eh, John, Google's decision to not accept ads from either side means precisely that they are not becoming "embroiled in the campaign".

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

ELM327

splinter65 wrote: »

So, no Irish woman ever persisted with an unwanted pregnancy because of the unavailability of abortion in Ireland.
Well what’s all this about then?

Are you pretending, or is that your actual comprehension of the content of my post?

No. Surely nobody could be so vacuous.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

https://twitter.com/medicsfor8th/status/993558449219883008?s=21

This healthcare speel for Yes doesn’t add up. Having abortion widely available doesn’t lead to better health outcomes.

how has the 8th contributed positively to those figures?

fxotoole

splinter65 wrote: »

When you say we, who do you mean? You are speaking for HSE in Clonmel?
Clonmel is prepared to take on the entire possible termination of pregnancy services for the whole of Kilkenny Carlow and the whole of Tipperary?
If someone in Kilkenny or Carlow or Thurles or Nenagh on a Medical Card in fact anyone outside of Clonmel has a problem with their GP then you do of course realize that they can’t move their GP at all never mind move to a GP in Clonmel?

The subset of people you're talking about is extremely small and very specific. You're clutching at straws now.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

getting your excuses in early?

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what fantasy situation have you invested for your outrage? you're not being clear.

Itwasntme123 is insisting that anyone who cannot get an abortion in Kilkenny should come to Clonmel.
Likewise itwasntme123 insists (read the post) that if your GP is on the no abortion list that you must transfer to a GP in Clonmel.
I’ve pointed out that that’s not possible at all for public patients.
I’ve asked itwasntme123 to confirm that he/she is speaking on behalf of public health services in Clonmel.
I think I’m perfectly clear. What exactly do you not understand and I’ll clarify?

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

This makes absolutely no sense. Smacks of desperation.

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

Death is only one type of outcome.

Data worldwide proves that patients who are fully engaged and informed about their treatment and given choices about that treatment (even if the choice is somewhat illusionary), have better outcomes than patients who feel like their treatment is being "done" to them without much consultation.

Most countries with abortion have higher maternal deaths per 100,000 compared to Ireland. Yes campaigners lie that the 8th cost lives, this is not true.

gmisk

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said that if the No side now loses by a small amount that Google could legitimately be blamed as a foreign influence in that loss given they knew the No side had a big online campaign on their platform unlike Yes and the decision by Google to stop Irish campaigners using their platform is foreign influence.

By who?
John Mc Guirk?
He says a lot of things.....not all of them true....
His lovely emails, his (non existent) settlement with the phoenix etc etc.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

https://twitter.com/medicsfor8th/status/993558449219883008?s=21

This healthcare speel for Yes doesn’t add up. Having abortion widely available doesn’t lead to better health outcomes.

Well yes, when you set the bar as low as "didn't die", we aren't doing too badly.

And as you well know, the 8th isn't just about abortion. It affects maternity care for everyone. For wanted pregnancies.
The ability to give and withhold consent to procedures is a huge obstacle.
It isn't medical best practice.
It isn't a pleasant feeling to have absolutely no control over what's happening or being done to your body during a very stressful, vulnerable situation, such as labor.
I know as a man you would have no idea how that feels, but please, try for some empathy.
Many men here can feel it. Many men here see how birth can be a negative, scary experience when you have no control over what's happening.
Why can't you?