8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

The prolife view will become like the anti-capital punishment movement where not killing is viewed as progressive.

How is it that you and others are incapable of engaging in the debate without propaganda so? The amount of stuff that you have posted that has literally ignored every fact that you have heard over and over.

RobertKK wrote: »

There are lies in this thread that the 8th cost lives, yet people are unable to explain why the UK has a higher death toll of pregnant women.

Can you deal with the points in relation to medical treatment? You've ignored them entirely so far...

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gmisk

RobertKK wrote: »

The prolife view will become like the anti-capital punishment movement where not killing is viewed as progressive.

Will it now.
You honestly believe that? come on.....



The "prolife" view does not feel progressive to me, but hey lets see!

gmisk

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Nail....head

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ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

There are lies in this thread that the 8th cost lives, yet people are unable to explain why the UK has a higher death toll of pregnant women.

and you are unable to explain how the 8th has contributed positively to this.

can you explain why we have a higher death toll than Canada, Belgium and Sweden despite the liberal abortion regimes in those countries?

Billy86

I see one of our resident "what outside funding?" no voters is still having kittens over outside funded adverts being blocked. Always good for a chuckle.

RobertKK

The Floyd p wrote: »

I'm not trying to stir anything, more just looking for clarity on one aspect of this debate.

Where are certain pro-life campaigners getting this 6 month time scale from? Has it been mentioned anywhere by any official body or is it speculation?

It is in the proposed legislation and Dr Boylan said made a comment on TV before that if a woman says the pregnancy is a risk to her health that it would be acted upon - after the 12 weeks.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

There are lies in this thread that the 8th cost lives, yet people are unable to explain why the UK has a higher death toll of pregnant women.

Even your mate Cora Sherlock doesn't believe that the 8th is responsible for our low maternal death rate. She has been quoted as saying

…I am not suggesting the non-availability of abortion in Ireland is in itself the reason we have a better record but rather that the availability of abortion doesn’t make a country any safer in protecting the lives of women.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

There are lies in this thread that the 8th cost lives, yet people are unable to explain why the UK has a higher death toll of pregnant women.

It has cost lives, but we're setting a low bar if we just judge on death. The 8th has unquestionably negatively impacted the healthcare provided to women who are pregnant.

For example:
Can you explain to me why its a good thing that if I were to get pregnant tomorrow, I would be denied any further treatment that is stopping me from developing cervical cancer?
Thanks.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and you are unable to explain how the 8th has contributed positively to this.

can you explain why we have a higher death toll than Canada, Belgium and Sweden despite the liberal abortion regimes in those countries?

But you have been unable to answer my question so you ask another to avoid the one I asked.

gmisk

The Floyd p wrote: »

I'm not trying to stir anything, more just looking for clarity on one aspect of this debate.

Where are certain pro-life campaigners getting this 6 month time scale from? Has it been mentioned anywhere by any official body or is it speculation?

Can someone who is more clued in than me respond to this genuine question?
My understanding is that there will only be access to an abortion after 12 weeks if the mothers life is at risk, FFA etc, but I could be wrong.


It seems to have got lost in the nonsense.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

But you have been unable to answer my question so you ask another to avoid the one I asked.

I was showing you how stupid the question was. You are implying a correlation that does not exist. The availability or otherwise of abortion has no effect on maternal death rates. The difference between ourselves and the UK is statistically insignificant. Even the No campaign dont think there is a correlation. You are completely on your own on this.

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

What is costing more pregnant women their lives in the UK? It is hardly the 8th amendment...
Yes people here use the 8th amendment as an accuse to peddle lies.

What's costing people lives in the UK?

I'd go with the gutting of the NHS, overworked and underpaid doctors and nurses, and a myriad of other reasons.

Why not look at Malta, a country with a total ban on abortion, and a MMR of 9, or the likes of Italy, Sweden, or Austria, that have an MMR of 6 or less (2015 figures).

The US has a high MMR, but abortion is available in varying degrees of availability, depending on State.

Anyway, I don't think "Well, you didn't die" is a great basis for an argument.

Does Ireland have a good rate of MMR? Sure does. Could it be better? Sure could. Will abortion availability in Ireland affect the MMR by much, personally I doubt it. But will it make it worse? More than likely not.

RobertKK

SusieBlue wrote: »

It has cost lives, but we're setting a low bar if we just judge on death. The 8th has unquestionably negatively impacted the healthcare provided to women who are pregnant.

For example:
Can you explain to me why its a good thing that if I were to get pregnant tomorrow, I would be denied any further treatment that is stopping me from developing cervical cancer?
Thanks.

It is strange that the Yes campaign say the 8th has cost lives. Bring up the inconvenient fact that Ireland has a lower maternal mortality rate than our nearest neighbour, and then talking about death is setting a low bar, because it doesn't suit the argument that the 8th has not cost lives

inter arma

Has there been any count on what number of TDs publically support a yes or a no vote? I found it astonishing that within Fianna Fail alone, over half of their TDs are advocating a no vote.

Nettle Soup

inter arma wrote: »

Has there been any count on what number of TDs publically support a yes or a no vote? I found it astonishing that within Fianna Fail alone, over half of their TDs are advocating a no vote.

Yeah but they are advocating it fairly silently. Most TDs don't want to be closely associated with either side.

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pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

It is strange that the Yes campaign say the 8th has cost lives. Bring up the inconvenient fact that Ireland has a lower maternal mortality rate than our nearest neighbour, and then talking about death is setting a low bar, because it doesn't suit the argument that the 8th has not cost lives

I'm taking the fact you're ignoring the content of my posts that you're incapable of addressing it. If you have cancer you can be prevented from having treatments. Same for other illnesses. But these are just hard cases for you. But every day ones nonetheless.

RobertKK

inter arma wrote: »

Has there been any count on what number of TDs publically support a yes or a no vote? I found it astonishing that within Fianna Fail alone, over half of their TDs are advocating a no vote.

A majority of the Dail.

The No side has no representation from any political leaders, and only lies from Simon Harris who said he would oppose abortion legislation. Micheal Martin is the same.
This vote has exposed people who tell the electorate the truth and those who lie. Changing opinion after being elected means they have no mandate from their voters.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

A majority of the Dail.

The No side has no representation from any political leaders, and only lies from Simon Harris who said he would oppose abortion legislation. Micheal Martin is the same.
This vote has exposed people who tell the electorate the truth and those who lie. Changing opinion after being elected means they have no mandate from their voters.

you are upset that people have changed their mind? what is the point of discussion if people are not allowed to change their mind? Or are you only upset because they are no longer opposed to the referendum?

RobertKK

pitifulgod wrote: »

I'm taking the fact you're ignoring the content of my posts that you're incapable of addressing it. If you have cancer you can be prevented from having treatments. Same for other illnesses. But these are just hard cases for you. But every day ones nonetheless.

Yet doctors on the No side said the 8th hasn't affected them providing healthcare of the mother.
Maybe the Yes doctors are a bigger risk to women's health?

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

A majority of the Dail.

The No side has no representation from any political leaders, and only lies from Simon Harris who said he would oppose abortion legislation. Micheal Martin is the same.
This vote has exposed people who tell the electorate the truth and those who lie. Changing opinion after being elected means they have no mandate from their voters.

At the next General election, the public is free to oust them if they wish. Politicians don't resign if their position matures or changes... The sheer desperation from you...

RobertKK wrote: »

Yet doctors on the No side said the 8th hasn't affected them providing healthcare of the mother.
Maybe the Yes doctors are a bigger risk to women's health?

Meanwhile the majority of medical professionals in maternal care disagree... Strange that.

Zubeneschamali

RobertKK wrote: »

The prolife view will become like the anti-capital punishment movement where not killing is viewed as progressive.

With the slight difference that the anti-capital punishment folks won, and you are going to lose. Maybe not this time, but I will live to see it.

This is why they passed the 8th back in the 80s while they still could - they could see that Ireland was changing and wanted to prevent it as long as possible, but it was a rearguard action, defensive only. When it is gone, it is gone for good.

AnneFrank

pitifulgod wrote: »

Doctors are not required to offer abortions. Many will choose to because they have no issue with them.

if the yes win, i am sure many will choose not to aswell,
thou shall do no harm.

pitifulgod

AnneFrank wrote: »

if the yes win, i am sure many will choose not to aswell,
thou shall do no harm.

So your point was entirely irrelevant and you're back to soundbites.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you are upset that people have changed their mind? what is the point of discussion if people are not allowed to change their mind? Or are you only upset because they are no longer opposed to the referendum?

People can change their mind, but politicians like Simon Harris - he wrote a letter to the pro-life movement asking for support in his election campaign, he said he is prolife and would oppose any legislation on abortion and to help him get elected so he can make this a reality.
Would you trust Simon Harris after that?

dudara

RobertKK wrote: »

People can change their mind, but politicians like Simon Harris - he wrote a letter to the pro-life movement asking for support in his election campaign, he said he is prolife and would oppose any legislation on abortion and to help him get elected so he can make this a reality.
Would you trust Simon Harris after that?

Why wouldn’t I, in so far as I trust any politician?

People change their minds all the time. As long as he’s open and transparent about it, I have no issue. Micheal Martin changed his mind and I respect him more for that.

gmisk

AnneFrank wrote: »

thou shall do no harm.

Ah from the hippocratic oath, which I need point out to you AGAIN doctors in ireland dont pledge too....honestly

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

It is in the proposed legislation and Dr Boylan said made a comment on TV before that if a woman says the pregnancy is a risk to her health that it would be acted upon - after the 12 weeks.

So where is the 6 months coming from Robert? It's by request up to 12 weeks and then for medical reasons after that. Also not "when a woman says" but rather when the doctor assesses.