8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Achasanai

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

I can't worry about everybody else. Those women need to make a choice based on their own circumstances.

Empathy can be difficult for some people, Martin. If you can't find it in yourself to feel for the countless women who don't have the same privileges that your daughter has, try to think about those that don't. Read the In Her Shoes stories on Facebook.

But if that still doesn't get your empathy moving, have a look at how the 8th - which isn't just about abortion - will possibly impact on your daugther's life regardless of your privileged situation in society. If she has to go to the UK for an abortion, will she have the physical support of friends & family? Will she be able to get time off work for the procedure and also for all the follow-ups, treatment, whatever else she needs? Will travelling for an abortion have a greater impact on her psychological and physical well-being than if she had been able to have an abortion here in Ireland?

Martin Micropenis

uptherebels wrote: »

You mean the impact of exporting our abortions overseas ?

Yes.

In an ideal situation the no vote would win and many (not all) of the women who previously would have availed of abortions (if yes won) would say "OK - the people have spoken. I am not going to have an abortion."

Triceratops Ballet

Martin Micropenis wrote:

I am fully aware of what the 8th represents. My vote is primarily driven by the impact of the 8th on abortion.

The 8th only refers to the right to life of the unborn being equal to that of a woman. It does not mention abortion at all.
Do you think women and the unborn are of equal worth? Do you think it's right that while men in Ireland have full bodily autonomy at all times women do not?

Wrongway1985

Another bluffer all fine to agree to live in UK where abortion can be sought legally, no problem assisting daughter to go there as that's in the name of CHOICE apparently, it's fine we've the money. Openly admits is a hypocrite so what is the point in sticking around here? Using your vote in the name of hypocrisy imagine pfffft....

Ave Sodalis

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Yes.

In an ideal situation the no vote would win and many (not all) of the women who previously would have availed of abortions (if yes won) would say "OK - the people have spoken. I am not going to have an abortion."

I would be willing to bet my life on it that nobody is going to think that.

Martin Micropenis

Achasanai wrote: »

If she has to go to the UK for an abortion, will she have the physical support of friends & family? Will she be able to get time off work for the procedure and also for all the follow-ups, treatment, whatever else she needs? Will travelling for an abortion have a greater impact on her psychological and physical well-being than if she had been able to have an abortion here in Ireland?

Yes to the first two.
It shouldn't is the answer to the third.

kylith

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Those scenarios are all consequences of the 8th.
You won't find many no voters actually happy that people have to go through them.

And yet you will happily vote to have women continue to go through them.

Martin Micropenis

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

The 8th only refers to the right to life of the unborn being equal to that of a woman. It does not mention abortion at all.
Do you think women and the unborn are of equal worth?

I actually don't - in a very difficult labour situation, where the mother's life was under threat, I would prioritise her life over the life of the unborn.

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Do you think it's right that while men in Ireland have full bodily autonomy at all times women do not?

Surely that's down to biology?

Martin Micropenis

kylith wrote: »

And yet you will happily vote to have women continue to go through them.

Not happily. Reluctantly.

Triceratops Ballet

Martin Micropenis wrote:

In an ideal situation the no vote would win and many (not all) of the women who previously would have availed of abortions (if yes won) would say "OK - the people have spoken. I am not going to have an abortion."

This is like some sort of fever dream! You think that women who have a constitutional right to avail of abortions in another jurisdiction will just decide sure feck it I'll stay home and have this kid I don't want? The people have spoken!

Nettle Soup

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

The 8th only refers to the right to life of the unborn being equal to that of a woman. It does not mention abortion at all.
Do you think women and the unborn are of equal worth? Do you think it's right that while men in Ireland have full bodily autonomy at all times women do not?

Very good post. You should repeat this often. Its amazing how complicated people make the referendum.

gmisk

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

This is like some sort of fever dream! You think that women who have a constitutional right to avail of abortions in another jurisdiction will just decide sure feck it I'll stay home and have this kid I don't want? The people have spoken!

No he is pretty much saying if you can afford to travel to have an abortion you can, if not screw it tough you should be forced to carry on the pregnancy.

Triceratops Ballet

Martin Micropenis wrote:

Yes to the first two. It shouldn't is the answer to the third.

It shouldn't, based on what? You don't think it's distressing? Travelling even for fun is exhausting... Travelling for an abortion is not a jolly

kylith

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Some people will vote no and not explain themselves.
Some people will vote no and not given it a second thought.
I am voting no and looking into myself to see why.
I am being blunt and fully admit it's driven to a certain extent by self-interest and the feeling that "I can get around this if I really have to"

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Yes.

In an ideal situation the no vote would win and many (not all) of the women who previously would have availed of abortions (if yes won) would say "OK - the people have spoken. I am not going to have an abortion."

So it’s one rule for you and another rule for everyone else?

Zubeneschamali

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

[
I can't worry about everybody else. Those women need to make a choice based on their own circumstances.

You can worry about them and you should. They need your help.

Vote Yes.

Martin Micropenis

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Using your vote in the name of hypocrisy imagine pfffft....

So in what situations is it acceptable to vote no?

Am I worse than a hardline Youth Defencer who doesn't believe in any abortion anywhere and would force their child to carry a rapist's baby?

No voters are going to fall into a few different groups.
Are they all as bad as each other?

kylith

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Not happily. Reluctantly.

But you will do it., and women will suffer.

erica74

Repeal the 8th.

baylah17

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Using your vote in the name of hypocrisy imagine pfffft....

So in what situations is it acceptable to vote no?

Am I worse than a hardline Youth Defencer who doesn't believe in any abortion anywhere and would force their child to carry a rapist's baby?

No voters are going to fall into a few different groups.
Are they all as bad as each other?

The ones who register accounts just to come on here and flame and taunt in hope of a reaction are all as bad as each other Yes

zedhead

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

So in what situations is it acceptable to vote no?

Am I worse than a hardline Youth Defencer who doesn't believe in any abortion anywhere and would force their child to carry a rapist's baby?

No voters are going to fall into a few different groups.
Are they all as bad as each other?

There is no worse. The outcome is the same if a No vote wins, and if you vote no you will have contributed to it.

So if a no vote passes, you will be partially responsible for someones daughter being forced to carry a rapists baby to term.

Triceratops Ballet

Martin Micropenis wrote:

I actually don't - in a very difficult labour situation, where the mother's life was under threat, I would prioritise her life over the life of the unborn.

But you're going to vote to retain the amendment that makes that impossible

Martin Micropenis wrote:

Surely that's down to biology?

No it's down to the constitution. Prior to 1983 men and women had equal rights to bodily autonomy, the 8th amendment changed that. It's an utterly ridiculous situation for a country to be in in 2018

robarmstrong

Ah now lads, nobody is in any way shape or form responsible for what their vote entails, I mistakenly held that belief but realised otherwise.

I am not responsible for babies being aborted because I voted to repeal nor are No voters responsible for what they vote for. The 8th would be responsible, not those who vote to retain it.

Martin Micropenis

zedhead wrote: »

There is no worse. The outcome is the same if a No vote wins, and if you vote no you will have contributed to it.

So if a no vote passes, you will be partially responsible for someones daughter being forced to carry a rapists baby to term.

But you won't be because you voted yes. Fine.

Now, on the other hand - if I change my mind and vote yes (say it's to mitigate against those consequences of the 8th that Bannasidhe mentioned) then I'll be partially responsible for numerous abortions of healthy fetuses.

Hannibal_Smith

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

So in what situations is it acceptable to vote no?

Am I worse than a hardline Youth Defencer who doesn't believe in any abortion anywhere and would force their child to carry a rapist's baby?

No voters are going to fall into a few different groups.
Are they all as bad as each other?

There's nothing bad about a no voter. People are entitled to vote how they wish. I'm not going to lie, I do find this latest stance that women who have been raped should be forced to continue a pregnancy as awfully harsh. But in general if people cannot vote yes, there is nothing bad about it.

The only thing I do find bad is using lies to try and force others to vote their way.

I don't agree with your own reasoning for voting no. But it's your vote.

_Dara_

Bye Martin! o/

dudara

Martin - Irish women are already having abortions. It’s happening and it will continue to happen, regardlesss of the outcome of this referendum. It happens for a multitude of reasons, from health to lifestyle. No one denies that. Abortion is not a pleasant idea, it never will be, but for women, it is a necessary option.

I was once someone who tried to think of the “valid” cases where abortion could be allowed. After all, it feels morally better if there is some justification. Ultimately though, as I stretched my thinking I really did realize that I have no right to judge. None whatsoever. It’s hard, I really would rather abortion to be the last of the last resorts. But the simple fact is that it is required. That might be unpleasant but it is true.

zedhead

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

But you won't be because you voted yes. Fine.

Now, on the other hand - if I change my mind and vote yes (say it's to mitigate against those consequences of the 8th that Bannasidhe mentioned) then I'll be partially responsible for numerous abortions of healthy fetuses.

In the same manner yes. So you need to decide, if you disagree with the prosptect of abortion of 'healthy foetus', (many of which would be aborted anyway just not in ireland) which outcome is worse. The countless dangers, pain and suffering the 8th presents or some women choosing to abort a 'healthy' foetus for a variety of reasons.

kylith

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

But you won't be because you voted yes. Fine.

Now, on the other hand - if I change my mind and vote yes (say it's to mitigate against those consequences of the 8th that Bannasidhe mentioned) then I'll be partially responsible for numerous abortions of healthy fetuses.

Abortions which will happen anyway, you’re just responsible for heaping more hardship on the women.

screamer

I'm voting no. I will not vote to allow the termination of the majority so that the minority and rare exceptions are provided for. Same as I wouldn't vote for capital punishment to potentially allow one innocent to die so the countless guilty could be gotten rid of.

No to killing healthy little ones.

Wrongway1985

Martin Micropenis wrote: »

So in what situations is it acceptable to vote no?

Am I worse than a hardline Youth Defencer who doesn't believe in any abortion anywhere and would force their child to carry a rapist's baby?

No voters are going to fall into a few different groups.
Are they all as bad as each other?

You are entitled to vote however you wish, but whatever you vote for you should do so with a clear conscience than being reluctant/unsure.

Are you any different to hardline youth defender? You answered that yourself, you have the money so would give your daughter the option to travel for a termination should a nightmare scenario occur. You don't care that the rest of the population cannot avail in their own country due to the eighth. So in summary nice you offer choice for your daughter, not nice only offered to her(and I'm assuming others close).