should alcohol be banned on Intercity rail journeys?

Del2005

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yes, on one hand it great idea to have security member on all intercity trains, reckon it would have to be a private security firm supplying them though, cannot see IR adding their own staff as security. So then we have the issue of fares going up to employ these 'security guards'

OK another issue is that wherever bouncer type (and these security types employed will have to have some girth and muscles on them, not weedy type) security people are involved (such as doormen on clubs/pubs) then as the drunk/rowdy passenger is being accosted or detained there is room for more shout outs of swearing and abuse and a few punches and kicks thrown maybe from the disgruntled and drunk passenger - so lest us not forgot that these carriages are shared with families and young children who could be very traumitised (maybe more traumatised than just watching a drunk rolling around, vomititing / swearing/wetting themselves / passed out) by seeing an an atercation with a security guard trying to accost a drunk person and blood involved and 'lots' of swearing and violence.

So this is a risk - if there was a zero tollerence attitude and it was enforced properly and Irish Rail had signs up at stations and on trains sayng "Irish rail do not tolerate any drunken behavior on its trains and we prosecute and take actions in all circumstances" (and mean it , and enforce it) - then there we be no margins for error. everyone will know where they stand and there will be no ignorance when the person is caught and charged with being drunk in a public area can be told "you have already been warned that it is ilegal to be drunk on public transport" and then everyone will know where they stand and familes (welland other passengers really) can be assure when they travel on a train it will be a pleasant experience with no chance of any altercations between intoxicated/inebriated people and passengers/members of the public (who lets face it when they are travelling on a train they are under the care of Irish Rail which should look after the care of its passengers at all times)

Security have little more power than you or me to deal with people. They cannot detain people, false imprisonment, and can't remove people without running the risk of being charged with assault or the new social media witch hunt. We need transport police and a functional legal system that does not allow people get up to 3 or 4 figure convictions.

How do you define drunk? A diabetic can appear to be very drunk and I knew a person who turned into a complete scumbag after 1 or 2 pints so wouldn't blow over the DUI limit.

The problem is this country is not the drinking its the acceptance of anti social behaviour by sober and intoxicated people. There are already numerous laws against anti social behaviour which are ignored and banning alcohol is not the solution, that just penalises the responsible majority.

fxotoole

Del2005 wrote: »

How do you define drunk? A diabetic can appear to be very drunk and I knew a person who turned into a complete scumbag after 1 or 2 pints so wouldn't blow over the DUI limit.

Use the same standard as a Garda arresting someone for being drunk and disorderly. Or a barman refusing drinks service. Or a doorman refusing entry to someone who's intoxicated. Irish Rail need to grow some balls and stand up to this kind of behaviour

L1011

fxotoole wrote: »

Use the same standard as a Garda arresting someone for being drunk and disorderly. Or a barman refusing drinks service. Or a doorman refusing entry to someone who's intoxicated. Irish Rail need to grow some balls and stand up to this kind of behaviour

Those aren't standard

A doorman will refuse you before most bar staff. Most bar staff will refuse before you are at the level of being arrested for drunk in public.

Andy From Sligo

I like soppy drunks but there doesnt seem to be that many out there. Such a lot of people seem to get angry or violent or abusive these days when they have some dink in them - but there are people that can get drunk and just cannot stop giggling or just pass out and go to sleep -they are grand , would be OK (well the giggling might become annoying) if everyone who got drunk done this it would be OK .. but why do so many people get angry and abusive and intimidating these days when they get drunk?

fxotoole

L1011 wrote: »

Those aren't standard

A doorman will refuse you before most bar staff. Most bar staff will refuse before you are at the level of being arrested for drunk in public.

My point is use your noggin. How does a Garda,barman, or doorman know someone.'s had one too many? They use their judgement and common sense.

dr.fuzzenstein

Del2005 wrote: »

Security have little more power than you or me to deal with people. They cannot detain people, false imprisonment, and can't remove people without running the risk of being charged with assault or the new social media witch hunt. We need transport police and a functional legal system that does not allow people get up to 3 or 4 figure convictions.

How do you define drunk? A diabetic can appear to be very drunk and I knew a person who turned into a complete scumbag after 1 or 2 pints so wouldn't blow over the DUI limit.

The problem is this country is not the drinking its the acceptance of anti social behaviour by sober and intoxicated people. There are already numerous laws against anti social behaviour which are ignored and banning alcohol is not the solution, that just penalises the responsible majority.

Ireland doesn't accept drinking but accepts anti social behavior.
It is time that was reversed.
In continental Europe you see drink everywhere, bars, cafes, cinemas, even office cantines. And it's dirt cheap. I can buy a six pack of beer, bottle of wine and spirits for under €15.
But you don't see any people pissed out of their heads staggering, fighting, pissing or puking.
Because drinking is OK, but being a drunk asshole isn't.
Just try it, you'll be picked up and stuffed into the drunk tank. In Ireland you get to behave however you want and if someone touches you or says anything, you get to sue them for "injuries" and reputational damage. Courts here are extremely soft for paying out even to people whose story has been proven to be bunkum and their injuries faked or exaggerated.
Cue angry denials from people in the legal profession in 3...2...1...

L1011

fxotoole wrote: »

My point is use your noggin. How does a Garda,barman, or doorman know someone.'s had one too many? They use their judgement and common sense.

But to which level do you want Irish Rail to kick people off at - the not letting in, the not serving or arresting level?

Andy From Sligo

an Irish Rail member of staff letting on a drunk passenger (or a passenger who looks like they have started getting inebriated) in the first place is pretty stupid and careless - it might let the staff member off the hook and pass the problem onto someone else (normally a packed carriage full of passengers) but then if that drunk (so drunk they dont even know what they are doing) then if that inebriated person ends up abusing/hurting... killing someone? - then that member of staff in my eyes by turning a blind eye is just as guilty as the drunk person in my book because they have the authority (or should have) to stop that person getting on the train in the first place.

Rawr

Similarly to others who have posted here, I also feel that a ban on alcohol on-board trains isn't really a solution. I feel that one practical solution would be to ensure that once a passenger becomes disruptive enough to cause concern to other passengers, that in most cases they will be ejected at the next station.

Other posters have mention calling ahead to Garda stations at upcoming stops to eject a disruptive passenger. Could such an idea developed into an easy to use solution for passengers to report these disruptions? For example, a way to report to IE Traffic Control your Train's ID / Location / and some details of the problem. This might be done either as an app, contact number, or notification button somewhere on the train (for example). Thereafter the appropriate Garda station would be alerted to send Gardai to go wait for the train.

Courts and punishment aside, I wonder if the danger of being ejected at a small remote station at Ballygosideways, with few or infrequent options of getting further to their destination might serve as enough of a dis-incentive and thus reduce anti-social behavior on board?

I could easily be wrong on this, these ideas are just the crayons in my head working on this problem

Rawr

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

an Irish Rail member of staff letting on a drunk passenger (or a passenger who looks like they have started getting inebriated) in the first place is pretty stupid and careless - it might let the staff member off the hook and pass the problem onto someone else (normally a packed carriage full of passengers) but then if that drunk (so drunk they dont even know what they are doing) then if that inebriated person ends up abusing/hurting... killing someone? - then that member of staff in my eyes by turning a blind eye is just as guilty as the drunk person in my book because they have the authority (or should have) to stop that person getting on the train in the first place.

Practically it might be a herculean task to individually screen all boarding Intercity passengers for sobriety or potential for anti-social behavior. Especially if the train stops at stations that are very lightly staffed, or in some cases not staffed at all.

It may not be possible to effectively identify a troublemaker until he/she makes themselves known to their fellow passengers during the trip.

As I mentioned in my post above, I feel that an easy method for passengers to quickly report anti-social problems to the Gardai when they actually happen might be a key to helping here. I also feel that removal from the train should also happen as quickly as possible to reduce any potential of danger.

Del2005

Rawr wrote: »

Practically it might be a herculean task to individually screen all boarding Intercity passengers for sobriety or potential for anti-social behavior. Especially if the train stops at stations that are very lightly staffed, or in some cases not staffed at all.

It may not be possible to effectively identify a troublemaker until he/she makes themselves known to their fellow passengers during the trip.

As I mentioned in my post above, I feel that an easy method for passengers to quickly report anti-social problems to the Gardai when they actually happen might be a key to helping here. I also feel that removal from the train should also happen as quickly as possible to reduce any potential of danger.

The Gardai can currently remove disruptive people from the train. So why do you want a new law when the current law covers your issue of anti social passengers and banning alcohol won't stop all the anti social problems.

Rawr

Del2005 wrote: »

The Gardai can currently remove disruptive people from the train. So why do you want a new law when the current law covers your issue of anti social passengers and banning alcohol won't stop all the anti social problems.

I never mention the need for a new law. I am talking about potential practical solutions to make it easier for the law to be enforced

whisky_galore

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ireland doesn't accept drinking but accepts anti social behavior.
It is time that was reversed.
In continental Europe you see drink everywhere, bars, cafes, cinemas, even office cantines. And it's dirt cheap. I can buy a six pack of beer, bottle of wine and spirits for under €15.
But you don't see any people pissed out of their heads staggering, fighting, pissing or puking.
Because drinking is OK, but being a drunk asshole isn't.
Just try it, you'll be picked up and stuffed into the drunk tank. In Ireland you get to behave however you want and if someone touches you or says anything, you get to sue them for "injuries" and reputational damage. Courts here are extremely soft for paying out even to people whose story has been proven to be bunkum and their injuries faked or exaggerated.
Cue angry denials from people in the legal profession in 3...2...1...

I don't know how you can reverse several hundred years of Irish drinking culture. The one hope is that, as the stats show, people are tending to drink less now and once-common things like being drunk in the workplace aren't tolerated anymore so it may be more of a gradual decline.

It seems the litigious behaviour that has infected the country is fed, aided and abetted by the legal system.

Andy From Sligo

Rawr wrote: »

Similarly to others who have posted here, I also feel that a ban on alcohol on-board trains isn't really a solution. I feel that one practical solution would be to ensure that once a passenger becomes disruptive enough to cause concern to other passengers, that in most cases they will be ejected at the next station.

Other posters have mention calling ahead to Garda stations at upcoming stops to eject a disruptive passenger. Could such an idea developed into an easy to use solution for passengers to report these disruptions? For example, a way to report to IE Traffic Control your Train's ID / Location / and some details of the problem. This might be done either as an app, contact number, or notification button somewhere on the train (for example). Thereafter the appropriate Garda station would be alerted to send Gardai to go wait for the train.

Courts and punishment aside, I wonder if the danger of being ejected at a small remote station at Ballygosideways, with few or infrequent options of getting further to their destination might serve as enough of a dis-incentive and thus reduce anti-social behavior on board?

I could easily be wrong on this, these ideas are just the crayons in my head working on this problem

I like your idea about the app.

I wouldnt have enough confidence that the Gardai would be "waiting at the next stop" - the other week I came across a RTA where a oil truck went into a ditch and I called Gardai - it took 50minutes for them to arrive on the scene, crazy Gardai was calling back within that 50 minutes saying there is a "Delay" because all available Gardai were out on other calls at present!

I would even question if they would even bother their ass to attend a station in the first place .. well not unless maybe it was 'a quiet day at the office' and didnt have anything more important to do ...

sporty56

I suggested something similar to app about 6/7 years ago after being on late evening DART where gang of teenage females were vandalising seats with nailfiles and nail varnish. I was seriously outnumbered and did not feel safe to intervene but told driver when getting off.

I wrote to Irish Rail suggesting that an anti social reporting text number be displayed in DARTs etc so public could discretely report what they were encountering and where they were. Irish Rail could then arrange their own security or Gardaí to intervene as well as informing driver.

Three days later I got a call from an assistant manager in Connolly(don't remember name) thanking me for an excellent idea and that he would push for it's immediate implementation. Alas, nothing happened.

goingnowhere

There is a number, just isn't anyone to answer it outside business hours

Andy From Sligo

sporty56 wrote: »

I suggested something similar to app about 6/7 years ago after being on late evening DART where gang of teenage females were vandalising seats with nailfiles and nail varnish. I was seriously outnumbered and did not feel safe to intervene but told driver when getting off.

I wrote to Irish Rail suggesting that an anti social reporting text number be displayed in DARTs etc so public could discretely report what they were encountering and where they were. Irish Rail could then arrange their own security or Gardaí to intervene as well as informing driver.

Three days later I got a call from an assistant manager in Connolly(don't remember name) thanking me for an excellent idea and that he would push for it's immediate implementation. Alas, nothing happened.

with GPS these days on mobile phones you wouldnt even have to give location the app would be able to pick up your GPS location and pin-point where exactly you are.

Shame it didnt get get past the "forwarded the feedback to..." stage

Rawr

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

with GPS these days on mobile phones you wouldnt even have to give location the app would be able to pick up your GPS location and pin-point where exactly you are.

Shame it didnt get get past the "forwarded the feedback to..." stage

In this day and age we have plenty of technology available to allow for an easy method to identify, report and locate antisocial activity within a very short amount of time.

But there is always the human element to consider. For any kind of reporting system to work, there would need to be an attentive staff available most of the time, who in turn would need a way to access to available Gardai nationwide.

Leaving this to Irish Rail alone might work, but a more central authority might be a better choice. For example the NTA, or even dare I say a "Transport Police" section of the Gardai. Such an authority might be able to extend this system to other modes, such as busses and trams.

I don't believe this to be a silver bullet of any kind for this problem, but I feel that if we can install a sense of control over public transport, where it becomes known that misbehavior will almost always automatically result in ejection from the vehicle, then with any luck we will eventually see the reduction of this nonsense.

A rather extreme example of this is what can happen if you act the maggot on an aircraft. Depending on the airline and options available, sometimes even the slightest threat or violent behavior can result in an unplanned landing, deplaning of the offender and sometimes severe punishment. I know that with air-travel there is also a stricter safety dimension at play that cannot tolerate drunken behavior due to safely/evacuation reasons, but my point is that with air travel there appears to be a generally stricter safety culture involved which should make it clear that becoming a drunk idiot while airborne is a dangerously stupid move, with real consequences.

Alas, this air-travel example is also flawed since the same flavor of pond-scum who get stupidly drunk on a train, have the unfortunate knack of doing the same on an aircraft (alas especially on an aircraft in some cases). Thus resulting in unpleasant flights that either result in arrests at the destination, or if serious enough result in an unplanned landing.

Here and now, I feel that we need systems and personell in place to ensure fast and effective removal of offenders on transport. It might take many years, but if this type of system can be upheld, the message might eventually get through to offenders, that acting the maggot on a train or bus is simply not worth the automatic trouble they will end up in.

dingding

I use the train a good bit, and it is generally not a problem. Usually it is just stag parties on the train that are a bit noisy. In a kind of excitable shouting as if there were in a night club.

Once the sell drink on the train, then it limits their effectiveness. i.e. the train can't be an alcohol free zone.

In the good old days when there was a bar and restaurant car, they just all headed to the bar and left everyone alone.

I think removing all alcohol from the train would be a good move.

Andy From Sligo

dingding wrote: »

I use the train a good bit, and it is generally not a problem. Usually it is just stag parties on the train that are a bit noisy. In a kind of excitable shouting as if there were in a night club.

Once the sell drink on the train, then it limits their effectiveness. i.e. the train can't be an alcohol free zone.

In the good old days when there was a bar and restaurant car, they just all headed to the bar and left everyone alone.

I think removing all alcohol from the train would be a good move.

thats got me thinking now - should they bring back the good old fashioned bar/refreshment carriages back (on the intercity routes at least) these days? sounds good to me , better than wheeling the trolley down blocking the gangway and waiting for the trolley to come down the aisle again. When you feel thirsty or hungry for a sangwich just get up out your seat and walk down to the refreshment carriage

Del.Monte

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thats got me thinking now - should they bring back the good old fashioned bar/refreshment carriages back (on the intercity routes at least) these days? sounds good to me , better than wheeling the trolley down blocking the gangway and waiting for the trolley to come down the aisle again. When you feel thirsty or hungry for a sangwich just get up out your seat and walk down to the refreshment carriage

Not going to happen, CIE have wrecked their catering service and the damn overpriced, severely limited poison trolleys - if you're lucky - are all that will be available to most of us.

dingding

Also the modern intercity trains are generally two trains connected to each other so you cant walk the length of the train between stations. I think the dining car boat has sailed.

Andy From Sligo

shame - I was thinking that even if Irish rail didnt lay on / run the bar/restaurant/refreshment carriage but left it up to another private firm to do it , that it might have worked

Del.Monte

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

shame - I was thinking that even if Irish rail didnt lay on / run the bar/restaurant/refreshment carriage but left it up to another private firm to do it , that it might have worked

That's the current situation with Rail Gourmet or whatever it's now called.

Radio Gold

Heres Johnny wrote: »

No, but annoying other passengers by being loud and obnoxious should be.

Can't be a nanny state because of some idiots. Hen parties should just be banned from everywhere anyway.

Agree with you there, i am fed up of noisey Hen parties on trains when I just want enjoy the journey, I have had to put up with it on the Sligo train (Carrick-on-Shannon) even Sunday morning going back to Dublin.

Demonique

Hen and stag parties should be banned from taking alcohol onboard with them and alcohol should be banned on match days as loud, drunk supporters are just as annoying as hen and stag parties

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's the current situation with Rail Gourmet or whatever it's now called.

Yes, they slashed their catering budget getting in outside contractors who pay employees a pittance to run an overpriced tuck shop.

machaseh

Let me enjoy my six packs of pint in peace on the train.

The problem is anti social behaviour, not necessarily drinking itself. Obviously, drinking can worsen anti-social behaviour, but it's not like anti-social behaviour never happens without drinking.

Now of course there should be conductors on the train who can intervene in case of annoyingly loud stag/hen parties. I could understand a drinking ban during special occasions (halloween, very big match days) but they should be communicated everywhere well in advance.

In my country the Netherlands, there is only one single day in the year where drinking on the trains is banned and that is during the national holiday king's day when everybody gets leathered and many people travel to Amsterdam to party. On all other days drinking is allowed.

marieholmfan

A bar carriage is a good idea.
Have to be very careful that diabetics etc. aren't treated as intoxicated.

I would like to see the free travel passes given to heroin addicts restricted in time and conditional upon good conduct.

Andy From Sligo

on train security guards need deployed to trains today on busy journeys at least . my daughter who travelled on an irish rail train this morning (not the sligo to Dublin line) said there was almost a fight broke out because some woman was sitting in a booked seat and was adamant she was not going to move even after being told the seat was pre-booked because she said "I was here first!"

and also a guy moaning because a booked seat was 'empty' and packed carriages with standing passengers and peoples tensions running high. - one day there will be big rows break out in these type of situations and you either need a member of irish rail staff or a security firm employed by IR to be onboard and quell these type of things as well as antisocial behaviour and being drunk on trains and the like