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Leap card misuse- fine!

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    #92
    DesperateDan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    All Leap cards should be treated like the student or annual cards are at the moment - tied to a person requiring an application with a form of ID. That means a Leap validator can be put in every station in the country.

    If you tag on in Dublin and tag off in Cork with zero funds your Leap card balance is now -€80 and you can't use it again until it's up to zero, just like it is now with shorter journeys.

    Only problem with that plan is every station out in the country is wide open so you can't actually force people to tag off...


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    #93
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    I'd suggest you :

    1. Appeal it.
    2. Make a complaint to the NTA and Irish Rail about the ludicrous situation.
    3. Copy all of these complaints to your local TD (or several local TDs) and send with a letter explaing that you want the confusing/ludicrous situation that cause people to get into this trap ended.
    4. Raise the issue with the media if necessary.

    You're technically in the wrong with the ticket, but the system is a joke.
    Also, I'm not sure why an Irish Rail inspector took your Leap card. It is NTA property, not Irish Rail's and may contain other transport passes and cash balances that have nothing to do with them.

    So, I would suggest you ask the NTA to retrieve your card from Irish Rail.


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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    devnull wrote: »
    Leap Cards only cost €5 and don't need to be registered.

    If an evader got caught once they'd simply swap to a new Leap Card and it would be more than worth their while since inspectors are not exactly common on Irish Rail.

    You can easily go a year or two without seeing them and even inspectors at ticket gates are of no use at catching those without a tagged on leap card due to conditional validation evasion methods being used.

    Well there's a major flaw in the system right there. Surely there should be one per train? I don't think I've ever gotten an inter-county train and not been asked to show a ticket.


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    #95
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    I'd suggest you :

    1. Appeal it.
    2. Make a complaint to the NTA and Irish Rail about the ludicrous situation.
    3. Copy all of these complaints to your local TD (or several local TDs) and send with a letter explaing that you want the confusing/ludicrous situation that cause people to get into this trap ended.
    4. Raise the issue with the media if necessary.

    You're technically in the wrong with the ticket, but the system is a joke.
    Also, I'm not sure why an Irish Rail inspector took your Leap card. It is NTA property, not Irish Rail's and may contain other transport passes and cash balances that have nothing to do with them.

    So, I would suggest you ask the NTA to retrieve your card from Irish Rail.

    They took the card as there MAY have been a history of fare evasion.

    But the rules are there. The OP was in the wrong and "I did not know" is not a defence.

    This is a big problem with people now. They are being fed info non stop and dont look or check anything. Its not the system, its the people.

    Read the T&C's folks. It only takes 5 mins.


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    #96
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    To be honest, it's pedantic stuff like this that makes using public transport even more miserable than it already is and contributes to why we're so car dependent.

    If someone makes a genuine mistake and you're operating a system that's a complete mess, it's reasonable to be accommodating.

    It's pretty clear that the "system" (I use that term loosely) is setup in a very confusing way.

    Adopting the approach that the customer is always wrong and could be tripped up by being unaware of a technicality at any moment is no basis for running any kind of business or public service.


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    #97
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    They took the card as there MAY have been a history of fare evasion.

    But the rules are there. The OP was in the wrong and "I did not know" is not a defence.

    This is a big problem with people now. They are being fed info non stop and dont look or check anything. Its not the system, its the people.

    Read the T&C's folks. It only takes 5 mins.

    OP, admitted fault.

    Confussion is certainly a factor in this.

    The main mystery to me is why the inspector took the card and under what power of law he done so under. T&C's don't give anyone an automatic right to start siezing things. As for evidence of fare evisasion. I'd like to see that evidence tested in a court.

    I'd pay the fine if it was me, but I would want my Leap Card back also.


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    #98
    kikidelvin
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭kikidelvin


    If the card was valid for part of your journey then the fare from that station to where you got off would be due.no fraud intended.


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    #99
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    HonalD wrote: »
    Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system? And clearly if you were on a train going to Newbridge without a valid fare paid I.e. you did not have a valid ticket for your journey then you were not paying your way.

    Sorry to burst the sympathy bubble but you were wrong, you were caught in the wrong so that should be the end of it. Unless you think the opposite?

    Ah would you get outa that. She travelled an extra 10 minutes or so on a train, between two commuter towns on the outskirts of Dublin, thinking she was covered by the card which is supposed to be for general public transport. Which according to their website:  'Leap Card is a convenient way to pay for public transport services in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford.'

    She's a legitimate fare paying passenger who makes a small mistake over the boundaries that IR set on the scheme.

    Any reasonable business that relies on customer satisfaction would have a way of managing this without pissing off legitimate fare paying passengers. And God knows, there's enough free loaders on exemptions that don't pay a cent.
    I'm sorry but that's a very poor reflection on reality. The extension of the LEAP card system to Sallins/Naas was published widely in the press  - representations have been made in the Dail to get it extended to Newbridge but it hasn't been.  The resultant lack of parking spaces in Sallins/Naas has been a topic of debate too as many commuters from Kildare/Newbridge drive and park to use the short hop zone fare reduction (which is significant). Plans to expand the car park are reported in progress. All this is common knowledge and has been discussed on boards.ie too. So ignorance is not a defence. It may be a mitigating factor and the OP is right to feel annoyed but if you don't have a valid ticket, you're in the wrong, plain and simple.
    I've no interest in defending IR but I've yet to see any evidence produced by posters that Irish Rail has misled anyone into thinking that you can use a LEAP card to Newbridge.


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    #100
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Deleted User wrote: »
    HonalD wrote: »
    Does breaking the rules not equal cheating the system?

    No, and you're being obtuse. There is a clear difference between breaking the rules deliberately, and finding out that you have broken them unbeknownst to yourself. People should be given the benefit of the doubt by default, certainly for a first offence. Think of it in terms of rugby union.... Some fouls are a penalty, some just a scrum.

    All you have to do is log the leap card first time round, second offense = fine.
    Eh, really? So what you are saying is that everyone should be allowed be caught once without a valid ticket for travel and given a warning? But second time they are fined? Should we apply this to every service industry?
    Why not rely on people to pay their way and if they make a mistake or deliberately evade a fare, when caught they are fined for each and all offense? That sounds fair to those who pay the correct fare each and every time.


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    #101
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Anyway, the OP has indicated they are never going to travel on Irish Rail again so we are debating amongst ourselves to no benefit of the OP.


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    #102
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    devnull wrote: »
    But where are you going to find the billions it is going to cost in order to fund the construction and massive CPO'ing that will need to be done to create the additional tracks, wiring, signalling, platforms and space that is going to be needed for this. Even then there will be stations where there is physically no space to expand the number of platforms or tracks.

    Whilst I can see where you are coming from in theory and agree with what you are saying if we're talking in general rather than about Ireland specifically, you have to take into account the fact that there are serious limitations here, both with existing infrastructure and the lack of land to add additional infrastructure, as well as the massive costs of mass CPO'ing which would be both politically unpopular and expensive.

    There are other projects that would give far better value return in my view.

    I've already mentioned you don't necessarily need much additional tracks (although of course a dedicated track would be even faster). As a compromise you just need a few new platforms in a couple of key stations and indeed some additional signalling (both types of services can mostly share the same track in the Dublin area but the national one just needs its own platform and a short bit of track in a fairly limited number of stations so that it can stop at these and/or overtake local trains).

    Sure I realise it would cost quite a bit money and not happen in a day, but (and this is probably where we disagree) I see it as a valid investement to start building the future of our transportation infrastructure (with today's high speed rail technology in use in several other countries Dublin to Cork could be covered in a bit under an hour, I know we are a small country and don't have the same means so not saying we need the latest and greatest right now, but we are quite behind already and do we really want to be stuck for the decades to come with the infrastructure which currently only delivers it in 2h30min? If not the improvement works have to start soon as they will take a few years).

    Anyway I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this being impractical (I would personally rather call it much harder to do but much more efficient once completed). And also while you are mentioning valid challenges, I wouldn't agree Ireland's situation is unique in terms of these: other countries will surely have had similar issues and did overcome them become they deem the effort justified given the final outcome (i.e. the question is more "is it worth our while?" than "is it practical?" and of course people can have different opinions on that question).

    So going back to the original topic and moving away from that side note, my original point was that with the situation as it is, the very minimum Irish Rail should to os to at least have clear signage/maps at the station and on the trains so that passengers are easily aware how far they can go using a Leap Card (with a possible vocal announcement on the train before leaving the Leap Card zone).


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    #103
    SeeMoreBut
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭SeeMoreBut


    You should be able to tag on and off at all stations. Like you should on all BE buses

    Typical inspectors only be where they can hit people. Nowhere to be seen on a pack train.

    Go for easy targets to hit numbers

    Slightly off topic but the leap card to sallins has made a right mess of sallins. People drive to sallins from newbridge cause it’s half the price. Stupid when 5 minutes further.


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    #104
    tmh106
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭tmh106


    OP, you need to call Joe


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    #105
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well there's a major flaw in the system right there. Surely there should be one per train? I don't think I've ever gotten an inter-county train and not been asked to show a ticket.

    Having an inspector on every single train would be hugely expensive - but they certainly need to step up patrols and focus them on train rather than at gate lines because most of the evaders know a way to get around the gate line checks which doesn't involve hurdling the barriers or jumping over a fence etc.


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    #106
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bob24 wrote: »
    As a compromise you just need a few new platforms in a couple of key stations and indeed some additional signalling (both types of services can mostly share the same track in the Dublin area but the national one just needs its own platform and a short bit of track in a fairly limited number of stations so that it can stop at these and/or overtake local trains).

    Outside Dublin and perhaps Cork, there is going to be little need for additional tracks, platforms and infrastructure because the infrastructure that is there is not exactly being maxed out at the moment or anything like it. The cost to benefit ratio would be very poor.

    There is an argument of increasing platforms and infrastructure in Dublin to get long distance traffic separated from that of commuter as the shorter stuff regularly bottlenecks the longer, but if you look at a lot of the stations on the DART line for instance, there physically isn't the room for it at a lot of stations, and some that there is room would involve a lot of CPO.

    It's all very well saying platforms need to be built, lengthened and extra tracks but in Dublin in a lot of cases you don't have the room to do so and outside Dublin and perhaps Cork, you simply have little traffic to the point that it just wouldn't justify the expense in my view.
    So going back to the original topic and moving away from that side note, my original point was that with the situation as it is, the very minimum Irish Rail should to os to at least have clear signage/maps at the station and on the trains so that passengers are easily aware how far they can go using a Leap Card (with a possible vocal announcement on the train before leaving the Leap Card zone).

    Irish Rail's provision of information is diabolical for the most part, even if it's not as bad as it used to be, so you won't have any complaints for me on that. Knowing Irish Rail's track record with passenger information systems, I wouldn't trust the announcement to go off at the right time!

    Still I think as a passenger you should check a little before traveling though.


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    #107
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    SeeMoreBut wrote: »
    You should be able to tag on and off at all stations.

    So you wouldn't object to having a minimum of €80 balance on your leap card at all times before being allowed to start any journey?


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    #108
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Bob24 wrote: »
    If you plan properly it perfectly practical (and faster for long distance passengers) to separate local and national services on different trains. It doesn't mean trains can't use the same tracks, they just don't stop at the same stations or if they do stations have two separate areas. Many countries are doing that.

    Agree the other option is not fully practical, but again what we have at the moment is not great either as the ticket validation options are inconsistent with no clear visibility to the passengers.

    What you're proposing will see empty or near empty trains leaving Dublin all so people who can't be bothered to find out the rules of their ticket don't get fined! You're proposing a sledgehammer to crack a sesame seed.

    Does the OP not wonder why the inspector got on at Sallins? It's precisely because of others (not her) who use their leap card every day to travel from and to Newbridge and to avail of the much cheaper fares from Sallins inwards.

    I don't think her LEAP card should have been confiscated, but I'm sure the Inspector has had other people turn on the waterworks and then caught them again on other occasions and has just got fed up with it.


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    #109
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Msrebeckyxo wrote: »
    I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wGD84j0_t8


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    #110
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    What you're proposing will see empty or near empty trains leaving Dublin all so people who can't be bothered to find out the rules of their ticket don't get fined! You're proposing a sledgehammer to crack a sesame seed.

    No you didn’t fully get my posts. What I am proposing is faster intercity service because it doesn’t double up as a commuter service when it is leaving the Dublin area. Trains wouldn’t be empty, they would be topped-up with new customers who are attracted by shorter journey times between the capital and cities/towns in the regions (and as I said being able to segregate local and national services would be a mandatory first step toward being able to offer high speed rail links between Dublin and a few regional hub cities in the next decade or 2, which itself is key to reducing our economic over reliance on the capital). And in parallel there would be a proper commuter service with a consistant and fully integrated ticketing system, and interchanges with the national service.

    I don’t question that it would be a lot of work and cost money. But the benefits would be far from limited to fixing the current lack of coherence with lead card validation options.


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    #111
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    What would be reasonable would be to allow a confused passenger to pay the correct fare and explain the situation properly.

    All they need to say is "This is Blahblah station. This is the final stop on the Leap Card system. Passengers traveling beyond this point need an appropriate ticket. If you do not have a ticket, please exit the train here. Leap card is not valid beyond this station. "

    They make such clear announcements on the edge of the Oyster Card system for example.


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    HonalD wrote: »
    Eh, really? So what you are saying is that everyone should be allowed be caught once without a valid ticket for travel and given a warning? But second time they are fined? Should we apply this to every service industry?
    Why not rely on people to pay their way and if they make a mistake or deliberately evade a fare, when caught they are fined for each and all offense? That sounds fair to those who pay the correct fare each and every time.

    Again, there is a difference between evadng the fare and making a genuine mistake. Tagging on is, at the very least, an indication that she was willing to pay her fare. What is the difference between the fares to both of these stations, does anyone know? Is it more than a fiver?
    devnull wrote: »
    Having an inspector on every single train would be hugely expensive - but they certainly need to step up patrols and focus them on train rather than at gate lines because most of the evaders know a way to get around the gate line checks which doesn't involve hurdling the barriers or jumping over a fence etc.

    It only seems expensive because they don't do it currenty. It would help cut out some of that crap we've seen in other threads about pre-booking seats and names not being displayed.


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    #113
    Cakerbaker
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Again, there is a difference between evadng the fare and making a genuine mistake. Tagging on is, at the very least, an indication that she was willing to pay her fare. What is the difference between the fares to both of these stations, does anyone know? Is it more than a fiver?


    It’s over €10. Leap card single from Heuston to Sallins is around €3.70. It’s something like €14.50 for a single ticket to Newbridge.


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    #114
    Sephiroth_dude
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    Do they take your name and address when they fine you? What to stop someone giving fake details?


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    #115
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    HonalD wrote: »
    I'm sorry but that's a very poor reflection on reality. The extension of the LEAP card system to Sallins/Naas was published widely in the press  - representations have been made in the Dail to get it extended to Newbridge but it hasn't been.  The resultant lack of parking spaces in Sallins/Naas has been a topic of debate too as many commuters from Kildare/Newbridge drive and park to use the short hop zone fare reduction (which is significant). Plans to expand the car park are reported in progress. All this is common knowledge and has been discussed on boards.ie too. So ignorance is not a defence.

    Sorry Honal, I regard myself as reasonably well informed and never heard or saw any of this 'widely published' information. Nor should IR be relying on people reading boards.ie!!

    Regardless though: if I was in HR in IR, I'd pull in this inspector and advise them to be more careful when representing the company. And if they repeated treating fare paying customers like this, well I'd fire them.


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    #116
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Sephiroth_dude wrote: »
    Do they take your name and address when they fine you? What to stop someone giving fake details?

    Names and addresses are taken, yes. ID and addresses are sometimes confirmed and checked on the spot. It is illegal to give false details when stopped.


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    #117
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    BarryD2 wrote: »

    Regardless though: if I was in HR in IR, I'd pull in this inspector and advise them to be more careful when representing the company. And if they repeated treating fare paying customers like this, well I'd fire them.

    So you are suggesting that somebody be be more careful or even fired for doing precisely what their job entails them to do in the first place.


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    #118
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Leap was orginally only intended for travel within the GDA it has now been expanded to many places further away from Dublin and Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford cities.

    Leap was always planned to be nationwide. They just did it in phases.
    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Or cash. That's nationwide :)

    Yeah... by buying those things I believe are called "Tickets" in some places. Will never catch on here though.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Again, there is a difference between evadng the fare and making a genuine mistake. Tagging on is, at the very least, an indication that she was willing to pay her fare. What is the difference between the fares to both of these stations, does anyone know? Is it more than a fiver?

    That doesn't matter. You're just trying to reason down and minimize the impact overrunning a service has. When I use something, I look up what it'll cost, how I'll pay and how I'll use it. Dublin Bus had a big promo a few years back because of people paying the minimum fare and doing extended journeys. You think not knowing they should have paid more will cut it? As essentially that's what the OP's issue is. They never checked how to pay for the journey they made. Irish Rail don't hide the information. Every part of their website includes a button you can press that will take you to a journey planner with ticket options and a means to assess your fare. There are ticket vending machines all over Heuston, which the OP could have easily walked to and tapped in Origin / Destination. There is also a staffed information desk. And you have to walk pass someone to gain entry to the platforms. There was no lack of options for them to verify what was needed.


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    #119
    Msrebeckyxo
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Msrebeckyxo


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Leap was always planned to be nationwide. They just did it in phases.



    Yeah... by buying those things I believe are called "Tickets" in some places. Will never catch on here though.



    That doesn't matter. You're just trying to reason down and minimize the impact overrunning a service has. When I use something, I look up what it'll cost, how I'll pay and how I'll use it. Dublin Bus had a big promo a few years back because of people paying the minimum fare and doing extended journeys. You think not knowing they should have paid more will cut it? As essentially that's what the OP's issue is. They never checked how to pay for the journey they made. Irish Rail don't hide the information. Every part of their website includes a button you can press that will take you to a journey planner with ticket options and a means to assess your fare. There are ticket vending machines all over Heuston, which the OP could have easily walked to and tapped in Origin / Destination. There is also a staffed information desk. And you have to walk pass someone to gain entry to the platforms. There was no lack of options for them to verify what was needed.

    That’s true, but my point in all of this is, it’s not clear on the train etc whether leap is available on the entire train journey. If I felt the need to look it up I would’ve. It never occurred to me that a five minute journey from sallins to newbridge would be the such an expensive difference between leap and no leap.
    I’ve made a mistake. I’ve sent in an appeal. I will pay my fine in installments (because no way I can afford 113 euros). I think it’s a very costly fine in which I made a genuine mistake, explained my situation. I wasn’t trying to evade the fares etc, I paid on my leap card. If I really wanted to not pay, I wouldn’t have tapped on and hopped on for free.
    But sure st least this whole situation may have educated some people on this forum.
    I’m getting in touch with a local td who is responsible for bringing things up to Irish rail. Hopefully something may happen with having their rules for leap on trains or over intercoms or even just a feckin map in the station to say where the leap card works.
    As I’ve said, I won’t be going with Irish rail again. I think what happened was a bit of a shambles where I felt I was made a fool out of. Another inspector came on and I just felt they had such a sh**ty attitude towards me.
    But sure they were just doing their jobs, just felt it couldve been handled better, or I could’ve paid the 12.50 difference there and then.
    Learnt from my mistakes anyways!


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    #120
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    How can it never once occur to you to look up the journey? Why wait until you are on the train? You have to get by a barrier first at Hueston. That requires a ticket or leap card to open.

    Tagging on and going through is just like the Dublin bus scenario of paying the minimum fare I mentioned.

    If this has put you off using Irish rail, I find it a bit bemusing because the issue you have with them is of your own making.


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    #121
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    devnull wrote: »
    That process would send fare evasion through the roof, because it encourages people to travel without a valid ticket as they know if caught by an inspector they will not be fined and can just buy a ticket for the same price from the inspector.

    If there is no inspector, they simply would not pay and since you've removed any risk of a fine for not paying and gave every offender out their a get out clause of buying a ticket when challenged then everyone may as well do it because worst case scenario is they'd be no worse off.
    It works in Northern Ireland. You buy the ticket right on the train.

    If it's good enough up there, it's good enough for here. You're presenting a theoretical/speculative problem, to counter the factual reality of it working up North.


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