Cork developments

Justin Credible Darts

snotboogie wrote: »

This is largely thought to be due to lifestyle choices. "People who are living in dense areas are significantly more likely to have physical activity," says Hamidi. "Density gives us the option to be physically active; walking, biking, running and less likely to drive. Chronic diseases such as obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease – all of these are linked to more sprawling types of development and living in more sprawling areas.

I refuse to believe that.
For example, i and guess most people that did live in an apartment before might never have had a dog, where would you walk a dog, around the city center ?


As for going for a walk, try that late at night in the city center, with all the junkies, beggars, pissheads, and other scum and try it outside the city, I know which one i would prefer.
Living in a house in the suburbs or in the country I would imagine you get far more exercise, if its only gardening, cutting the grass, walking the dog, walking further to work, hanging around at bus stops if you use public transport,


That report makes no mention of other such things like diet, ethnicity etc where asians have far better eating habits and seem to have less obesity.

MrDerp

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I agree, surely if high rise building cost far more to build, its hardly a surprise the cost of the apartments will also be large to recoup the money, so it wont be "affordable".

That said, from an aesthetic viewpoint they might make for an impressive skyline, make the city more modern looking but I would rather live outside the city in a house with a garden and my car parked outside the door than live in some box in the city.

But each to their own

You can do both you know. Live in a rented glass box when you’re in your late 20s and want to live near work and pubs and restaurants. Then buy the house when you want to settle.

People fixate on the ‘these are not homes’ argument when build to let is intended for mobile transient work forces.

I loved living in boxes in Dublin in my mid to late 20s. Then guess what? We started going out less as we got older, and started saving so we rented a cheaper house in the suburbs and then ultimately bought a suburban house with room for 2 cars in Cork after we got married.

Nobody is forcing you to raise a family in high density, in fact the more high density apartments we have for students and transient/young workers, the more likely there’ll be a house free for you to rent or buy as a family. Everything has a place.

Justin Credible Darts

you are making the presumption that first...everyone works in a job in the city centre

secondly presuming living in the city is cheaper than living outside the city and commuting.

I can only speak for myself, I could not live in an apartment again.
I can understand some people have no problem, and that is fine as said each to their own, and these new high rise might make a good view, but rather look at them than live in them

the beer revolu

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I refuse to believe that.
For example, i and guess most people that did live in an apartment before might never have had a dog, where would you walk a dog, around the city center ?


As for going for a walk, try that late at night in the city center, with all the junkies, beggars, pissheads, and other scum and try it outside the city, I know which one i would prefer.
Living in a house in the suburbs or in the country I would imagine you get far more exercise, if its only gardening, cutting the grass, walking the dog, walking further to work, hanging around at bus stops if you use public transport,


That report makes no mention of other such things like diet, ethnicity etc where asians have far better eating habits and seem to have less obesity.

I think you are missing point.
Of course there is ample opportunity for exercise with suburban living but the fact is that the majority of people living in suburbia do not walk anywhere - every time they leave their house, it's in their car.
Conversely, city folk tend to walk to the shops, pubs, restaurants and work or walk /use public transport.

Many, many city dwellers have and walk dogs.
And most people who live in cities don't appear to be as terrified of disenfranchised people as you seem to be.

I think it's fair to say that most city dwellers get far more exercise while going about their daily lives than most suburban dwellers do.
Obviously, there are exceptions to this.

snotboogie

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

you are making the presumption that first...everyone works in a job in the city centre

secondly presuming living in the city is cheaper than living outside the city and commuting.

I can only speak for myself, I could not live in an apartment again.
I can understand some people have no problem, and that is fine as said each to their own, and these new high rise might make a good view, but rather look at them than live in them

He never once said everyone works in the city centre or that living in a city is cheaper. He said that many young people prefer to live in cities, which is true.

macraignil

macraignil wrote: »

Thanks for the link to the article which I think well sums up the current state of the docklands development with modern high rise not fitting well with the remaining older buildings and providing little hope to the groups of people in the city for whom high rise living is not the best option. I think your summary of what the article says is a bit inaccurate.



I fail to see why increasingly dense living is such a good idea and a recent report from the Irish society of chartered surveyors highlighted how building up is not going to improve affordability for housing.



"Our research shows the higher you go the greater the costs. This is due to the fact that these buildings have a more complex structure and require a wider range of mechanical and electrical services, sophisticated facades, basement parking and much more.”


I'm not saying there should be no high rise apartments but the collapse of the Sextant site apartment plan shows that other types of accommodation will have to make up the bulk of future housing stock as high rise apartments are simply too expensive. The report linked above puts the average cost in euros of a low rise apartment in Dublin at 293,000 where even for medium rise apartment blocks this rises to between 470,000 and 578,000. To say Cork is in trouble if we can't put people in high rise apartment blocks makes little sense to me. The greater Cork area has plenty of space for people to live non high rise lives which I think could for many be much nicer than struggling to pay for one of these high rise units.

macraignil wrote: »

That is a very pro urban lifestyle media article alright full of quotes from people who are in favour of dense urban living and some who are employed in planing these. I particularly find it amusing that the piece ends with the quotation ending .....Small-town life is small town life for a reason." like it is supposed to be nearly self explanatory that living in a small urban development is inferior after listing the factors some may appreciate about urban life and ignoring the benefits of less dense residential alternatives.



There are advantages to life expectancy of being close to a hospital. I agree that there may be a place for some dense residential development in Cork as I already said but some of the benefits from urban living that you point out may not be as significant as this one sided article seems to suggest. The levels of obesity and life expectancy of those found in dense urban areas may be due to factors like the population there being over represented by younger high earning professionals compared to the wider population. Someone who has chronic illness or obesity may be more likely to live in a more suburban area due to the economics of simply not being able to afford the cost of having a place to live in a more dense urban area. People can choose to be physically active in urban and in rural areas and I agree with the article you linked to that these results are likely to be very much linked to lifestyle choices. For balance here is a link to an article from a scientific study in the UK that showed rural life expectancy is higher there than in urban areas.

snotboogie wrote: »

Nobody is going to force people to live in dense cities. The issue is we barely have the option in Ireland now aside from maybe a few areas in Dublin. We are the least urbanised developed economy in the world. The entire country is basically suburban and semi rural sprawl. I don't see the issue with creating some density in Cork City to avail of the economies of scale for facilities and jobs?

I have just copied my last two posts above to provide a convenient reference point for my response to your comment. I have clearly said in both my posts that I think there is some place for some high rise residential development in Cork yet your last comment implies I have some issue with this. I was simply making the point that high rise apartments are expensive and other housing options must also be considered. We can have some element of economies of scale for facilities and jobs in Cork without being fully dependent on high rise apartments and a mixture of residential options is what I think could work best. Could you please read my comments before repeating your pro dense urban development rhetoric as you don't seem to be responding to what I have actually written.

namloc1980

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40303445.html

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/49b23-overview-of-economic-recovery-plan-2021/

€185m for Cork suburban rail network announced today in the Government’s National Recovery and Resilience Plan including:

- preparation for new stations at Tivoli, Blarney and Blackpool
- new through running platform at Kent,
- re-signalling to prepare for electrification,
- double tracking to Midleton.

This is EU recovery money so "should" happen relatively quickly, by Irish standards anyway.

snotboogie

macraignil wrote: »

I have just copied my last two posts above to provide a convenient reference point for my response to your comment. I have clearly said in both my posts that I think there is some place for some high rise residential development in Cork yet your last comment implies I have some issue with this.

macraignil wrote: »

Thanks for the link to the article which I think well sums up the current state of the docklands development with modern high rise not fitting well with the remaining older buildings and providing little hope to the groups of people in the city for whom high rise living is not the best option.

macraignil wrote: »

I was simply making the point that high rise apartments are expensive and other housing options must also be considered. We can have some element of economies of scale for facilities and jobs in Cork without being fully dependent on high rise apartments and a mixture of residential options is what I think could work best. Could you please read my comments before repeating your pro dense urban development rhetoric as you don't seem to be responding to what I have actually written.

I have no idea what you arguing? The article I linked is against any densification of Cork City. You praised the article and I pointed out that there is a place for dense urban development in Cork, most suitably in the docklands. I never said we should only build high rise apartments. I have no idea what you have taken such issue with?

Justin Credible Darts

the beer revolu wrote: »

I think you are missing point.
Of course there is ample opportunity for exercise with suburban living but the fact is that the majority of people living in suburbia do not walk anywhere - every time they leave their house, its in their car.
Conversely, city folk tend to walk to the shops, pubs, restaurants and work or walk /use public transport.

Many, many city dwellers have and walk dogs.
And most people who live in cities don't appear to be as terrified of disenfranchised people as you seem to be.

I think it's fair to say that most city dwellers get far more exercise while going about their daily lives than most suburban dwellers do.
Obviously, there are exceptions to this.

Where did i say I was terrified of pissheads and junkies ?


I said I dont like having to put up with them, there is a difference, I certainly would not want my wife or family having to put up with that.
Have you been in the city center at night time lately ? Its a ****hole.



What are you basing this assumption on that people living in the city center get more exercise than suburban people ?
or is this just your opinion ?

Mardyke

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Where did i say I was terrified of pissheads and junkies ?


I said I dont like having to put up with them, there is a difference, I certainly would not want my wife or family having to put up with that.
Have you been in the city center at night time lately ? Its a ****hole.



What are you basing this assumption on that people living in the city center get more exercise than suburban people ?
or is this just your opinion ?

It's not even at night. I was in town about 6pm some Thursday evening and it was grim around Cornmarket St and North Main St. Very grim.

But when half the city is derelict and people are not being encouraged to live in the city, what do they expect. Abject failure from CCC.

macraignil

snotboogie wrote: »

https://tripeanddrisheen.substack.com/p/a-city-risingtowards-what





I have no idea what you arguing? The article I linked is against any densification of Cork City. You praised the article and I pointed out that there is a place for dense urban development in Cork, most suitably in the docklands. I never said we should only build high rise apartments. I have no idea what you have taken such issue with?

This is the second time you are denying saying something that I never said that you said so again I just have to ask you to read what I have already commented as I don't think I can make it any clearer.

snotboogie

macraignil wrote: »

I have just copied my last two posts above to provide a convenient reference point for my response to your comment. I have clearly said in both my posts that I think there is some place for some high rise residential development in Cork yet your last comment implies I have some issue with this. I was simply making the point that high rise apartments are expensive and other housing options must also be considered. We can have some element of economies of scale for facilities and jobs in Cork without being fully dependent on high rise apartments and a mixture of residential options is what I think could work best. Could you please read my comments before repeating your pro dense urban development rhetoric as you don't seem to be responding to what I have actually written.

snotboogie wrote: »

I have no idea what you arguing? The article I linked is against any densification of Cork City. You praised the article and I pointed out that there is a place for dense urban development in Cork, most suitably in the docklands. I never said we should only build high rise apartments. I have no idea what you have taken such issue with?

macraignil wrote: »

This is the second time you are denying saying something that I never said that you said so again I just have to ask you to read what I have already commented as I don't think I can make it any clearer.

Treehelpplease

namloc1980 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40303445.html

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/49b23-overview-of-economic-recovery-plan-2021/

€185m for Cork suburban rail network announced today in the Government’s National Recovery and Resilience Plan including:

- preparation for new stations at Tivoli, Blarney and Blackpool
- new through running platform at Kent,
- re-signalling to prepare for electrification,
- double tracking to Midleton.

This is EU recovery money so "should" happen relatively quickly, by Irish standards anyway.

Three new train stations for the city. When was the last time Cork City had more than one train stop (if you want to count Blarney as the city now)?

macraignil

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't understand your emoji comments you are replying to me with. I originally replied to your comments in relation to an article you linked to about homelessness in Cork and an artists view that some of the existing docklands development seems to not sit well with some of the retained structures. I said your summary of the article was inaccurate.



You replied with a link to a pro dense urban development piece of journalism expanding on some of the points in the article including a claim of extended life expectancy and I replied to this with a UK study showing higher life expectancy from rural populations in contrast to your pro dense urban development link that did not even give any details of the life expectancy study they were referring to. This article also fails to identify some of the people it is quoting.



I did mention then as you just highlighted that I believe we can have some element of economies of scale and jobs in Cork without being fully reliant on high rise residential development as the article you linked to was all about high density development being better and your comment at this stage also implied high density was necessary for economies of scale for facilities and jobs. I stand by my view that you repeating that you never said everyone should live in high rise is completely pointless as I never claimed that this is something you said. I think the phrase is that you are using a straw man argument to go along with misrepresenting media links you have provided by taking you own meaning from the first and implying there is some basis in fact in the second article you provided a link to that to me seems more like a simple opinion piece from some pro dense urban development commentators.

Justin Credible Darts

Treehelpplease wrote: »

Three new train stations for the city. When was the last time Cork City had more than one train stop (if you want to count Blarney as the city now)?

probably the old station stop where the silversprings flyover is now.....and that is many decades ago

snotboogie

macraignil wrote: »

I don't understand your emoji comments you are replying to me with. I originally replied to your comments in relation to an article you linked to about homelessness in Cork and an artists view that some of the existing docklands development seems to not sit well with some of the retained structures. I said your summary of the article was inaccurate.



You replied with a link to a pro dense urban development piece of journalism expanding on some of the points in the article including a claim of extended life expectancy and I replied to this with a UK study showing higher life expectancy from rural populations in contrast to your pro dense urban development link that did not even give any details of the life expectancy study they were referring to. This article also fails to identify some of the people it is quoting.



I did mention then as you just highlighted that I believe we can have some element of economies of scale and jobs in Cork without being fully reliant on high rise residential development as the article you linked to was all about high density development being better and your comment at this stage also implied high density was necessary for economies of scale for facilities and jobs. I stand by my view that you repeating that you never said everyone should live in high rise is completely pointless as I never claimed that this is something you said. I think the phrase is that you are using a straw man argument to go along with misrepresenting media links you have provided by taking you own meaning from the first and implying there is some basis in fact in the second article you provided a link to that to me seems more like a simple opinion piece from some pro dense urban development commentators.

You said that you failed to see the reason for increased density in Cork and I provided a generic link that detailed the well established benefits of increased urbanisation and denser populations. I don't know why you are so wound up or why your are so incredulous at the most basic responses to your questions?

My summary of the article is right, one can't say that the likes of One Albert Quay and Navigation Square are out of scale and then say that R&H Hall needs to be preserved, even though it is vastly more out of scale. It reads like blind conservationism and anti change. It also fails to take into account that the Docklands were a derelict eyesore before these developments and talks about the area like it was some beautiful historic locale rather than the few odd old building surrounded by abandoned warehouses that it actually was and still largely is on the south docks.

If you are not against high rise in Cork but are against high rise in the Docklands because it is out of scale, then where is suitable?

macraignil

snotboogie wrote: »

You said that you failed to see the reason for increased density in Cork and I provided a generic link that detailed the well established benefits of increased urbanisation and denser populations. I don't know why you are so wound up or why your are so incredulous at the most basic responses to your questions?

My summary of the article is right, one can't say that the likes of One Albert Quay and Navigation Square are out of scale and then say that R&H Hall needs to be preserved, even though it is vastly more out of scale. It reads like blind conservationism and anti change. It also fails to take into account that the Docklands were a derelict eyesore before these developments and talks about the area like it was some beautiful historic locale rather than the few odd old building surrounded by abandoned warehouses that it actually was and still largely is on the south docks.

If you are not against high rise in Cork but are against high rise in the Docklands because it is out of scale, then where is suitable?

I don't think I am wound up and incredulous at your responses. I just don't think your responses have provided me with any reassurance that an emphasis on high density development is such a good idea.


I agree the south docs area would benefit from regeneration. I don't like the appearance of some of the new buildings in the area but there was not a whole lot there worth preserving from what I remember so I would not be upset by their development.


I do think the old Odlums building should be preserved somehow but am not too pushed about the grain silos.


Since there is some high rise development close to the south docs area already then it would make sense to me that if there is to be more of this in Cork then this would be a reasonable location for it.

mire

Cork City badly needs density - the alternative is endless sprawl and hopeless urban services - but we can achieve this without loads of high rise - the answer is mid rise [4-8 stories] combined with huge investment in public transport

Justin Credible Darts

lets be honest what is in the city that would make people want to live in it ?

This morning I was on oliver plunkett street, went past mcdonald's in winthrop street, and by the time i got to the bottom of patricks hill, i had passed more than a dozen people who looked like they have severe alcohol and substance issues.
One couple were staggering.

Then you have so many shops, even on patrick street boarded up, and dont give me the covid excuse, as the place was like that before covid.

fiload

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

lets be honest what is in the city that would make people want to live in it ?

This morning I was on oliver plunkett street, went past mcdonald's in winthrop street, and by the time i got to the bottom of patricks hill, i had passed more than a dozen people who looked like they have severe alcohol and substance issues.
One couple were staggering.

Then you have so many shops, even on patrick street boarded up, and dont give me the covid excuse, as the place was like that before covid.

Close to work
Close to pubs
Close to shops
Close to coffee shops
Close to restaurants
Close to events
Close to friends
Etc, etc, etc

Is it really that hard to imagine why someone would like to live in the city?
And before you explain why you would not like to live there, we already get that part.

Justin Credible Darts

fiload wrote: »

Close to work
Close to pubs
Close to shops
Close to coffee shops
Close to restaurants
Close to events
Close to friends
Etc, etc, etc

Your post is nothing but supposition, but lets play your game then.


You could live in Douglas, Bishopstown, Ballyvolane or any suburb etc living in a house and be near a pub, a shop, a coffee shop, a supermarket etc..and be minutes away from the city centre.....you can get a bus or walk it. You are aware of this right ? You do not have to live in the centre to have access to all these amenities.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of cork people who seem to get very defensive when someone mentions the city centre is a sh1thole.
Tell me , when someone lives in the city, how are they close to their friends ?
Are you suggesting when they move in to the city centre, their friends move as well. or is it that city centre dwellers only have friends that also all live in the city too.
Do you realize how stupid that sounds to presume city people are near their friends in the presumption they only make friends with other city people ?


you do know you could live in the city and be friends and socialize with people outside the city ?

fiload wrote: »

Is it really that hard to imagine why someone would like to live in the city?

If you actually took the time to read my previous post, you might have actually seen my words..."each to their own", I have no problem where anyone lives.
People can live where ever they want, I dont give a flying fuq but facts are facts, the city centre has boarded up shops, junkies sleeping in doorways and alleyways, beggars all over the place, and a guard to be seen.


If you think living in a box among that is fine, good for you.

EnzoScifo

Do you ever think that maybe if more people lived in the city centre it would be less of a "****hole"?

This thread has really deteriorated from what it once was. Hope it can back on track as it isn’t a shadow of its former self at the moment.

Justin Credible Darts

EnzoScifo wrote: »

Do you ever think that maybe if more people lived in the city centre it would be less of a "****hole"?

That is a possibility.



But I dont care as its not my responsibility to make sure the shops are open, or the junkies moved on, of the gardai patrolling more often or business in the centre picks up.



There are people employed in this city who have the responsibility for that, and its up to them to do their job properly.


Out of curiosity, if you moved in to a high rise apartment, do you think the junkies will go elsewhere ?

Mardyke

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

There are people employed in this city who have the responsibility for that, and its up to them to do their job properly.

The people employed to improve the city (or even keep it alive) have no interest in the city. They don't live there. They aren't from there. They like Gala balls and trips to Shanghai and lots of cash for doing nothing.

Yep, if more people lived in the city, you wouldn't see the drunks as much. That's basic stuff.

Justin Credible Darts

Mardyke wrote: »

The people employed to improve the city (or even keep it alive) have no interest in the city. They don't live there. They aren't from there. They like Gala balls and trips to Shanghai and lots of cash for doing nothing.

Yep, if more people lived in the city, you wouldn't see the drunks as much. That's basic stuff.

If the people paid to be responsible for the city dont give damn about it why should anyone else ?


I will travel in to the city when need be, but if we are going shopping for example, its more attractive to go to some place like mahon than the city centre. What can the city offer that online shopping or places like Mahon cant ?



When the pubs are open, I will go in to the city,I like the city for pubs but taxi out right away no hanging around afterwards, but no amount of parochial love will alter the fact currently the centre is a kip

Mardyke

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

If the people paid to be responsible for the city dont give damn about it why should anyone else ?


I will travel in to the city when need be, but if we are going shopping for example, its more attractive to go to some place like mahon than the city centre. What can the city offer that online shopping or places like Mahon cant ?



When the pubs are open, I will go in to the city,I like the city for pubs but taxi out right away no hanging around afterwards, but no amount of parochial love will alter the fact currently the centre is a kip

I'm partly agreeing with what you're saying. It's hard to continue to support the city centre when it's full of cars and falling down around ya.

The Gardai should be patrolling the place and not tolerating drunks and junkies causing havoc. But sure nobody responsible for making those decisions actually care.

Having said that, it's always going to be better than a Mahon Point. Places like Mahon and Douglas have their own issues.

It's a shame because Cork has so much potential.

Justin Credible Darts

Mardyke wrote: »

I'm partly agreeing with what you're saying. It's hard to continue to support the city centre when it's full of cars and falling down around ya.

The Gardai should be patrolling the place and not tolerating drunks and junkies causing havoc. But sure nobody responsible for making those decisions actually care.

Having said that, it's always going to be better than a Mahon Point. Places like Mahon and Douglas have their own issues.

It's a shame because Cork has so much potential.

I agree with you, sadly this was an issue before covid, I would not like to live in one of the new proposed high rise apartments, but think there will be plenty who will and good for them.


The number of closed up shops on the main street of the countries second city is pathetic.


Thanks to west cork, and and lots of great places in east cork and the lower harbour like spike island the tourists were still coming, but the city offered very little.


what will a tourist think walking down the main street of the city seeing homeless junkies sleeping in boarded up shop doorways.
In the last year on patrick street alone there has been multiple vicious assaults , where people were almost killed , people stabbed on the main street of the city during the day.
Thats not counting the other incidents down side streets.
Its not good.

satanta99

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I agree with you, sadly this was an issue before covid, I would not like to live in one of the new proposed high rise apartments, but think there will be plenty who will and good for them.


The number of closed up shops on the main street of the countries second city is pathetic.


Thanks to west cork, and and lots of great places in east cork and the lower harbour like spike island the tourists were still coming, but the city offered very little.


what will a tourist think walking down the main street of the city seeing homeless junkies sleeping in boarded up shop doorways.
In the last year on patrick street alone there has been multiple vicious assaults , where people were almost killed , people stabbed on the main street of the city during the day.
Thats not counting the other incidents down side streets.
Its not good.

You’d swear you were living in Gotham City!

These are the types of things that happen in all cities.

There are no boarded up shops on Patrick Steeet. There are empty units from U.K. retailers that went bust during the pandemic. They will be re-let in the next few months.

It’s easy to critique the actions of the city authorities on an Internet forum but there are good initiatives rolling out all across the city.

There is a genuine sense of excitement around the city at the prospect of bars and restaurants opening for outdoor customers next week. Princes Street looks great.

newuser99999

satanta99 wrote: »

You’d swear you were living in Gotham City!

These are the types of things that happen in all cities.

No they really don’t. There’s a stark contrast between Galway and Cork.