Dublin - BusConnects

tom1ie

tobsey wrote: »

The whole point of the spine routes is to reduce the volume of buses on these routes bunching together because they all came from different side streets onto one main route. The routes are designed to have a more even spread of buses to improve the frequency rather than just the capacity. The spines are designed to get rid of the waiting ages for a bus and then three come along at once scenario.

The spines are designed to separate busses from other traffic, shorten journey times and hence improve frequency. This cannot happen if you have busses blocking the qbc as they have to stop to let passengers on and off at bus stops.
This is fairly obvious.

tom1ie

jd wrote: »

This will be less of an issue as people tag on and off the buses.
We need to go cashless asap.

Agreed. But it’ll still be a massive issue due to the amount of busses, private busses and taxis using the qbc’s. If busses that aren’t stopping but carrying passengers, have to merge with regular traffic (that could be stationary due to traffic in the regular traffic lane), the whole idea of a dedicated lane collapses.
The system collapses.

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

That's precisely what they are doing until 2027 in the best case scenario. Are we still going to have the 2011 network in 2026?

It will be rolled out in stages between 2021 and 2027 I'd imagine it's not like all of a sudden in 2027 all the work will be finished it will be done gradually like all major infrastructure projects.

dublinman1990

The 2nd round of consultations for the route network review are coming up soon. Anyone know the release date yet?

tobsey

tom1ie wrote: »

The spines are designed to separate busses from other traffic, shorten journey times and hence improve frequency. This cannot happen if you have busses blocking the qbc as they have to stop to let passengers on and off at bus stops.
This is fairly obvious.

I agree that buses waiting behind stopped buses causes issues, but separating them from other traffic was not the intention of the spines. That’s what the old QBC plan was supposed to do. The consultants said one of the main issues with our bus system was that buses spread out to small estates when they got out of the city centre. Then the city bound routes would go from the small areas and all merge onto the primary routes. Drumcondra is a prime example where there’s about 10 different routes on the road. This causes half filled buses to bunch up as you approach town. So instead there would be feeder routes further out from town and then a main route on the spines that is frequent and regular.

monument

tobsey wrote: »

I agree that buses waiting behind stopped buses causes issues, but separating them from other traffic was not the intention of the spines. That’s what the old QBC plan was supposed to do. The consultants said one of the main issues with our bus system was that buses spread out to small estates when they got out of the city centre. Then the city bound routes would go from the small areas and all merge onto the primary routes. Drumcondra is a prime example where there’s about 10 different routes on the road. This causes half filled buses to bunch up as you approach town. So instead there would be feeder routes further out from town and then a main route on the spines that is frequent and regular.

That’s wrong — the NTA have cleared this up more than a few times: the vast bulk of the buses will go direct from the outer sections into the spines. Only a minority of the spines will have feeder buses.

tom1ie

tobsey wrote: »

I agree that buses waiting behind stopped buses causes issues, but separating them from other traffic was not the intention of the spines. That’s what the old QBC plan was supposed to do. The consultants said one of the main issues with our bus system was that buses spread out to small estates when they got out of the city centre. Then the city bound routes would go from the small areas and all merge onto the primary routes. Drumcondra is a prime example where there’s about 10 different routes on the road. This causes half filled buses to bunch up as you approach town. So instead there would be feeder routes further out from town and then a main route on the spines that is frequent and regular.

Frequent regular and having to interact with other traffic as the way forward in the qbc is blocked by a stopped bus!
The old qbc plan was much better in this regard.

tobsey

monument wrote: »

That’s wrong — the NTA have cleared this up more than a few times: the vast bulk of the buses will go direct from the outer sections into the spines. Only a minority of the spines will have feeder buses.

You’re right that most routes won’t need feeder buses but I am correct in saying that the plan is to make the buses on the spines more evenly spaced. Therefore the requirement for off lane stops is reduced. This is described in two of the bullet points in this doc https://busconnects.ie/media/1229/final-busconnects-fact-sheet-for-the-dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-proof-1.pdf

That was my point in replying to Tom who was complaining about the lack of off road stops in the updated proposal for Santry.

tom1ie

tobsey wrote: »

You’re right that most routes won’t need feeder buses but I am correct in saying that the plan is to make the buses on the spines more evenly spaced. Therefore the requirement for off lane stops is reduced. This is described in two of the bullet points in this doc https://busconnects.ie/media/1229/final-busconnects-fact-sheet-for-the-dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-proof-1.pdf

That was my point in replying to Tom who was complaining about the lack of off road stops in the updated proposal for Santry.

Yeah the busses will be more evenly spaced, but if the frequency is every 4 mins and you take into account private operators and taxis, in lane stops are still going to reduce qbc capacity. I can’t see how it won’t?

LXFlyer

They’re talking about *scheduling* buses to be more evenly spaced.

That doesn’t mean that will be what actually happens on the ground, and Jarrett Walker admitted that publicly, namely that bunching will still happen.

Given that some routes (from the first draft) would be joining the spines from roads with little or no priority measures, that’s going to be difficult to avoid.

tom1ie

LXFlyer wrote: »

They’re talking about *scheduling* buses to be more evenly spaced.

That doesn’t mean that will be what actually happens on the ground, and Jarrett Walker admitted that publicly, namely that bunching will still happen.

Given that some routes (from the first draft) would be joining the spines from roads with little or no priority measures, that’s going to be difficult to avoid.

So Jarrett himself admits bunching will happen and the nta design spine routes with in line bus stops.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

So Jarrett himself admits bunching will happen and the nta design spine routes with in line bus stops.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

I accept your point about in-line bus stops, but surely that can be fixed afterwards but first get the basic plan in operation.

It would be possible to ban taxis from QBCs or some QBCs where it becomes a problem. (I'm thinking of South Great Georgia St.)

Currently, taxis appear to think they can turn on 'bus only' right turns. That needs to change.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

So Jarrett himself admits bunching will happen and the nta design spine routes with in line bus stops.
That’s a recipe for disaster.

Of course bunching will always happen - we aren’t in a perfect world.

Even the Stillorgan QBC has non-recessed stops where there are only 4 traffic lanes - it manages to cope. Buses do still manage to overtake one another relatively easily.

While it’s not perfect, buses will still manage to overtake one another on the other QBCs too.

The NTA have to be realistic about the costs of this in terms of CPO activity and I think that we are seeing this from the plans so far.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I accept your point about in-line bus stops, but surely that can be fixed afterwards but first get the basic plan in operation.

It would be possible to ban taxis from QBCs or some QBCs where it becomes a problem. (I'm thinking of South Great Georgia St.)

Currently, taxis appear to think they can turn on 'bus only' right turns. That needs to change.

I suggest you look at the signage more closely.

Taxis are perfectly legally entitled to use the right turn from George’s St to Dame St.

They just can’t use contra-flow bus lanes.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

I suggest you look at the signage more closely.

Taxis are perfectly legally entitled to use the right turn from George’s St to Dame St.

They just can’t use contra-flow bus lanes.

I am actually talking about the taxis use of the bus lane, looking for fares. I know taxis are allowed to turn right - it says so on the sign.

CatInABox

Honestly, I think that the NTA are doing the CBC project correctly. I know everyone here would like to have set back bus stops, and taxis banned from the lanes, and more, but the likelihood of that getting through our planning and political system is pretty small.

Removing what would be contentious elements of the plan is wise in my opinion, as the plan is contentious enough as it is right now. Looking at the furore over the limited CPOs, and the rerouting of traffic from a few roads, adding more CPOs for set back bus stops and others would cause even more political and media headwinds.

Get it built and done with, and then focus on adding the nice-to-haves afterwards, when they won't sink the entire project.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am actually talking about the taxis use of the bus lane, looking for fares. I know taxis are allowed to turn right - it says so on the sign.

Again that is perfectly legal.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

cgcsb

I think fundamentally the issue is the main bus routes are doing a job that should really be done by a higher capacity rail based system. But we're many years away from the main arterial routes all having a rail service. BusConnects provides an improvement on the current offering but until we have DART expansion, luas to Finglas, metrolink and a new SW-NE metro line, improving the bus corridors is the best that can be done.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

I accept your point about in-line bus stops, but surely that can be fixed afterwards but first get the basic plan in operation.

It would be possible to ban taxis from QBCs or some QBCs where it becomes a problem. (I'm thinking of South Great Georgia St.)

Currently, taxis appear to think they can turn on 'bus only' right turns. That needs to change.

Why not get it right from the start? Design set back bus stops from day one. If we get bc delivered, (and that’s a big if) imagine how delighted the public transport detractors in the media would be if we had serious problems with bunching on the spines.

Banning taxis from bus lanes at rush hour(s) for example is very necessary in my opinion, but the taxi unions will strike over this without a doubt, leading to further negative press for bc.

tom1ie

LXFlyer wrote: »

Of course bunching will always happen - we aren’t in a perfect world.

Even the Stillorgan QBC has non-recessed stops where there are only 4 traffic lanes - it manages to cope. Buses do still manage to overtake one another relatively easily.

While it’s not perfect, buses will still manage to overtake one another on the other QBCs too.

The NTA have to be realistic about the costs of this in terms of CPO activity and I think that we are seeing this from the plans so far.

What is the frequency on the stillorgan qbc?

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

Honestly, I think that the NTA are doing the CBC project correctly. I know everyone here would like to have set back bus stops, and taxis banned from the lanes, and more, but the likelihood of that getting through our planning and political system is pretty small.

Removing what would be contentious elements of the plan is wise in my opinion, as the plan is contentious enough as it is right now. Looking at the furore over the limited CPOs, and the rerouting of traffic from a few roads, adding more CPOs for set back bus stops and others would cause even more political and media headwinds.

Get it built and done with, and then focus on adding the nice-to-haves afterwards, when they won't sink the entire project.

So how easy do you think it will be to get a second cpo for a set back bus stop after bc is delivered, when it could have been done the first time? That’s ludicrous.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

What is the frequency on the stillorgan qbc?

The highest in the city.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

I think fundamentally the issue is the main bus routes are doing a job that should really be done by a higher capacity rail based system. But we're many years away from the main arterial routes all having a rail service. BusConnects provides an improvement on the current offering but until we have DART expansion, luas to Finglas, metrolink and a new SW-NE metro line, improving the bus corridors is the best that can be done.

Yes and let’s improve them to the best design standards, aka set back bus stops.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

So how easy do you think it will be to get a second cpo for a set back bus stop after bc is delivered, when it could have been done the first time? That’s ludicrous.

That is not going to happen at every single stop in my view. It’ll happen where there is space but the main part of the project is delivering segregated lanes wherever possible.

I think you’re expecting more than this project can ever deliver. There’s a finite budget and expecting every stop to be fully recessed would push the CPO costs through the roof. There are other stop locations where there simply isn’t the physical space where buildings are flush with the footpaths.

I’ve never for one minute taken the potential journey time improvements as gospel - they will improve for sure but not to the extent that the NTA are claiming.

tom1ie

LXFlyer wrote: »

The highest in the city.

Which is?

jd

From https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/north-dublin-residents-prepared-to-sacrifice-gardens-for-busconnects-1.3756564

Some residents in north Dublin have said they are prepared to lose part of their front gardens to make way for bus and cycle lanes under the BusConnects project as it is “the lesser of two evils”.

Between 70 and 80 properties on Swords Road in Santry are being told they may be impacted by an alternative plan now being considered by the National Transport Authority (NTA) for the proposed Swords to city centre bus corridor.

Concerns had been raised by local businesses and residents in recent weeks about an aspect of the plan, published in November, which would see one-way traffic passing through Santry in the northbound direction, while southbound traffic would be diverted via Coolock Lane and the Santry bypass.
..
“Looking at it now, losing one metre of the garden compared to a one-way system is really not much of a loss,” he told The Irish Times.

“I work in Sandyford so I know what a bad commute is and I know what a good commute is. If this helps keep things going, I think for the next projected 40 years, then definitely I’d be on board with supporting it.

“Maybe I’m in the minority, but I think little sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. A metre from the garden doesn’t seem too bad.”

tom1ie

LXFlyer wrote: »

That is not going to happen at every single stop in my view. It’ll happen where there is space but the main part of the project is delivering segregated lanes wherever possible.

I think you’re expecting more than this project can ever deliver. There’s a finite budget and expecting every stop to be fully recessed would push the CPO costs through the roof. There are other stop locations where there simply isn’t the physical space where buildings are flush with the footpaths.

I’ve never for one minute taken the potential journey time improvements as gospel - they will improve for sure but not to the extent that the NTA are claiming.

I’m not expecting every stop to be set back, but I am expecting the majority to be.
The budget is 2 billion. Not exactly a small amount. We should expect high quality infrastructure for that price.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

Which is?

With respect, go and count them yourself. I’m not going to do all of the work for you.

Use the departures tab on www.a-b.ie for say the stop outside Donnybrook Garage which is not recessed and you’ll see the scheduled departures at a given time (say between 07:30 and 09:30).

There’s the 7b, 7d, 39a, 46a, 46e, 145, 116, 118 and 84x all inbound during the morning peak and that’s Dublin Bus alone.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

I’m not expecting every stop to be set back, but I am expecting the majority to be.
The budget is 2 billion. Not exactly a small amount. We should expect high quality infrastructure for that price.

You also need to bring people with you.

Regardless of what you might think, there’s a political reality to this.

tom1ie

LXFlyer wrote: »

With respect, go and count them yourself. I’m not going to do all of the work for you.

Use the departures tab on www.a-b.ie for say the stop outside Donnybrook Garage which is not recessed and you’ll see the scheduled departures at a given time.

There’s the 7b, 7d, 39a, 46a, 46e, 145, 116, 118 and 84x all inbound during the morning peak and that’s Dublin Bus alone.

You are the one comparing the stillorgan qbc with the known frequency of bc spines at 3 min (Lucan spine). So unless you come up with hard data on frequencies of existing spines I suggest you justify your argument another way.