Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Mokuba

cloudatlas wrote: »

Someone tried to prove their guilt and failed. It is not the same as proving innocence.

You don't have to prove innocence. That isn't the way the law works.

People are assumed innocent until they are found to be guilty of a crime.

They weren't guilty of a crime. Therefore they are innocent. Its very, very simple.

Cushie Butterfield

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Amazing, a man might actually have a heart, and be upset about women getting raped!

How amazing in this day and age.

This thread isn’t about you personally, even if the trial has upset you.

Ulysses Gaze

pjohnson wrote: »

Not anti man in the slightest

The ****ing nonsense there.

Were all 4 men on trial for rape?

No.

Can't even get that basic fact right....

ShowMeTheCash

irishrebe wrote: »

Already gave examples of women's rights when it comes to contraception and abortion and rape crisis services.

Examples of what?
What have you given an example of?

Prospectors

cloudatlas wrote: »

Someone tried to prove their guilt and failed. It is not the same as proving innocence.

Exactly. They are presumed innocent as much as you or I am presumed innocent. Innocence doesn't need to be proven, it is presumed unless proven otherwise.

pjohnson

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The ****ing nonsense there.

Were all 4 men on trial for rape?

No.

Can't even get that basic fact right....

Credit where its due. She said innocent men at least.

pjohnson

Prospectors wrote: »

Exactly. They are presumed innocent as much as you or I am presumed innocent. Innocence doesn't need to be proven, it is presumed unless proven otherwise.

This is what the protesters want changed I guess.

Ulysses Gaze

pjohnson wrote: »

Credit where its due. She said innocent men at least.

People like her are going to cost the Repeal movement the Referendum.

facehugger99

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

People like her are going to cost the Repeal movement the Referendum.

Think there's a bit too much attention being paid to one stupid twitter post - it's not like twitter is short of stupid.

cloudatlas

Mokuba wrote: »

What are the issues here then?

Explain to me how hard women have it, in modern Ireland, using real facts and statistics.

You suggested women surpass men which is a common redpiller assumption, I said they don't now you want me to get drawn into a debate in a thread about a rape trial on how hard women have it. The don't dominate men in our society.

pjohnson

cloudatlas wrote: »

You suggested women surpass men which is a common redpiller assumption, I said they don't now you want me to get drawn into a debate in a thread about a rape trial on how hard women have it. The don't dominate men in our society.

Whats this redpiller you love talking about? I dont think its to do with this thread unless you are claiming pills were used?

Assetbacked

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Does the man have to continuously confirm consent all through every sexuall encounter and if he doesn't should women stop?

Well, it would seem that way from the other poster. She made a point about being silent as equating to not consenting despite there being no violence or threat of violence. Bar very limited exceptions (for example, repeated rape), I fail to see how this can be said.

Surely, not expressing a desire to get out of the situation or physically resisting in the normal course of a sexual encounter is almost always indicative of consenting? To state otherwise would be to put across a general view of women as pathetic and weak, incapable of standing up for themselves.

ShowMeTheCash

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Havent I just said two posts ago? It is not about this particular case. It is about the wider issue of women being failed in the court systems in the rep and n.ireland. That can be changed going forward.

I have to say lads, you're doing an awful lot to live up to your current reputation as Irish men as 'sexist, cruel and nasty'. If you want to keep in that vein so be it. I have been talking to men abroad on whatsapl, ive travelled a fair bit, and they were all incredibly supportive. So I think I will go and talk to the supportive people and the Irish women who actually want change. Ye need to take a hardlook at how you're acting, and how you are now looking on a global stage.

You have talk to guys on whatsapp?
There we have it then! Close the thread!

What is it you want to change?
Before you make another broad statement in your best words tell me what in the current constitution would you change?
I would really love to hear it.

Mokuba

cloudatlas wrote: »

You suggested women surpass men which is a common redpiller assumption, I said they don't now you want me to get drawn into a debate in a thread about a rape trial on how hard women have it. The don't dominate men in our society.

If you're not part of one toxic hate group (3rd Wave Feminism), well you must be part of another! (Red Pill)

tritium

Honestly this whole case makes me a bit sad. The protest stuff is pathetic though

It’s possible to believe both versions of events in a case like this, it’s possible that everyone is telling their truth. For my view I think the verdict was correct. I don’t think it should impact on the players future but it inevitably will.

I used to think consent classes were nonsense. Cases like this make me realize they’re a good idea, if free from dogma, for both genders. Part of those classes has to be how to clearly both say and understand ‘Yes’ and ‘No’. Not the unhelpful **** that some interested parties have been spouting post verdict, not the tripe about clear body language and signals that gets floated about.how to be unambiguous in your communication, both asking and responding

The folks who organized the marches should be ashamed of themselves though, using this for political capital and keeping their profile up

cloudatlas

Mokuba wrote: »

If you're not part of one toxic hate group (3rd Wave Feminism), well you must be part of another! (Red Pill)

There are comments that are akin to the Red pill ethos in this thread and indeed in after hours, sure not long ago 'blast her with piss' was a stock reply in after hours until the mods clamped down, fairly nasty stuff.

Mokuba

cloudatlas wrote: »

There are comments that are akin to the Red pill ethos in this thread and indeed in after hours, sure not long ago 'blast her with piss' was a stock reply in after hours until the mods clamped down, fairly nasty stuff.

And your own comments where you generalised Irish men as "sexist, cruel and nasty" - I take it they are A-Ok?

RuMan

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Havent I just said two posts ago? It is not about this particular case. It is about the wider issue of women being failed in the court systems in the rep and n.ireland. That can be changed going forward.

I have to say lads, you're doing an awful lot to live up to your current reputation as Irish men as 'sexist, cruel and nasty'. If you want to keep in that vein so be it. I have been talking to men abroad on whatsapl, ive travelled a fair bit, and they were all incredibly supportive. So I think I will go and talk to the supportive people and the Irish women who actually want change. Ye need to take a hardlook at how you're acting, and how you are now looking on a global stage.

British men u mean?

Can you provide examples of woman being failed in Irish courts and what legislation you want changed whether here or in Britain.

Is it just Ireland and the UK?

cloudatlas

Mokuba wrote: »

And your own comments where you generalised Irish men as "sexist, cruel and nasty" - I take it they are A-Ok?

You are falsely attributing a quote of another poster to me. I did not say that.

pjohnson

cloudatlas wrote: »

You are falsely attributing a quote of another poster to me. I did not say that.

You deny the men are innocent though as it wasn't "proved"

Silentcorner

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Havent I just said two posts ago? It is not about this particular case. It is about the wider issue of women being failed in the court systems in the rep and n.ireland. That can be changed going forward.

I have to say lads, you're doing an awful lot to live up to your current reputation as Irish men as 'sexist, cruel and nasty'. If you want to keep in that vein so be it. I have been talking to men abroad on whatsapl, ive travelled a fair bit, and they were all incredibly supportive. So I think I will go and talk to the supportive people and the Irish women who actually want change. Ye need to take a hardlook at how you're acting, and how you are now looking on a global stage.

I have to say, that in my experience here in Limerick anyway, the men I spoke to yesterday about this were all as gob smacked over this verdict as each other...

This is not a gender divide....at least it is not as big as you might think it is...

Nobody won yesterday....absolutely nobody....

The system with which we treat sexual violence needs to be overhauled it is clearly not fit for purpose...

This case will not put off women who falsely report rape...if anything it could increase it...women who falsely accuse someone of rape are not stable individuals....

This will put off a lot of very distressed victims of sexual assault from seeking justice....

Consent classes need to be introduced to the education system, I found the whole experience of the last two months depressing....how victims react to rape attacks need to be understood also...

If young men, speak about women in the way those men did...then we are failing our young men...that attitude plus the physical difference between young men and women plus a shedload of alcohol is a very dangerous cocktail...

Mokuba

cloudatlas wrote: »

You are falsely attributing a quote of another poster to me. I did not say that.

Apologies.

khaldrogo

retro:electro wrote:

.........Okay, so they may not have raped her. But they showed her absolutely no regard and spoke about her as if she was a piece of meat.

Every Sunday morning there are lads What's App groups all over the world saying similar stuff to each other that these lads said. Is it right? No. Is it a reason to find someone guilty of rape? No.

NIMAN

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The ****ing nonsense there.

Were all 4 men on trial for rape?

No.

Can't even get that basic fact right....

She's obviously one of the brain dead people who live in social media land these days.

The kind you find posting on subjects they haven't a baldies about.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm saying that IMHO not being proved guilty is the same thing as being innocent.

That seems clear enough.

I haven't seen anyone disagree with that point...hence my confusion about what/who it is you are actually arguing about/with.

NIMAN

@appledreams

These men you talk to around the world, who are so much better than Irish men when it comes to respecting women, I take it none were from the countries where they gang rape bus passengers? Or kidnap tourists, rape and murder them?

Where does Ireland stand in the world table for percentage of rape convictions per capita? I'd say it's well down the list.

hots

Appledreams15 wrote: »

... maybe I will be man enough...

Bit offensive.

the_syco

pjohnson wrote: »

Not anti man in the slightest

Jaysus fcuking christ.

GreeBo

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

well thats a lie, men can be raped aswell and it has happened, theres just not as much said about it, and yes a women can rape a man and a man can rape a man.

Thats incorrect.
Only a man can commit rape as it requires penetration with a penis.

Anything else is sexual assault.

RuMan

Silentcorner wrote: »

I have to say, that in my experience here in Limerick anyway, the men I spoke to yesterday about this were all as gob smacked over this verdict as each other...

This is not a gender divide....at least it is not as big as you might think it is...

Nobody won yesterday....absolutely nobody....

The system with which we treat sexual violence needs to be overhauled it is clearly not fit for purpose...

This case will not put off women who falsely report rape...if anything it could increase it...women who falsely accuse someone of rape are not stable individuals....

This will put off a lot of very distressed victims of sexual assault from seeking justice....

Consent classes need to be introduced to the education system, I found the whole experience of the last two months depressing....how victims react to rape attacks need to be understood also...

If young men, speak about women in the way those men did...then we are failing our young men...that attitude plus the physical difference between young men and women plus a shedload of alcohol is a very dangerous cocktail...

Most people i spoke to were amazed it even got to court. Cant see how anyone following the proceedings could have been shocked by the verdict