Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

seamus wrote: »

You can't prove a negative anyway. So it's impossible to prove something didn't happen.
No, I don't have a legal background.

The point is that if you think that a rape did actually happen, this can only be for two reasons:

1. Someone else was there that night who did rape her but wasn't accused of it
2. The men involved raped her, contrary to the finding of the court

You cannot say, "The court found them not guilty of rape, but that doesn't mean they didn't rape her", unless you have chosen to disregard the entire purpose of the court system. "Rape" is a specific legal term. If the evidence fails to support a finding of rape, then the accused did not commit rape. And where you have four people in a room having sex, it is not possible that one of those people has been raped, but none of the other 3 committed rape. If none of them committed rape, then the fourth person was not raped.

You can throw in a million other terms here and say that she was injured, degraded, violated, humiliated. But "rape" is not one of those terms, because the evidence failed to support it.

You can say "The court found them not guilty of rape, but that doesn't mean they didn't rape her"

A court verdict is based on evidence, if there isn't enough evidence to convict then that's the verdict, not guilty. It doesn't mean that the crime wasn't committed.

pjohnson

mayolady14 wrote: »

And men think they can rape and get away with it. Because they do. 98% of them.

Again you assume all accused are guilty.

Assetbacked

mayolady14 wrote: »

I have no interest in reliving the matter any more, as I have moved on with my life. The point is that women are constantly being told to report their rapes, but when they do they aren’t believed. I have been repeatedly told that it would be my fault if my rapist rapes another woman. This is obviously exceptionally unfair

If you were told to jump off a cliff because you were raped, would you? In Ireland, rape victims have anonymity; trials progress with publication of information which could identify the victim (or accused) being prohibited. You have decided that your rape incident did not warrant reporting but you have no experience of what it is like to go through a rape trial as the victim.

storker

mayolady14 wrote: »

And rapists think they can rape and get away with it. Because they do. 98% of accused rapists.

Fixed for sexism.

Assetbacked

irishrebe wrote: »

Who said it did?

"Someone being acquitted of rape does not mean nothing happened". Equally, it does not mean something did happen.

Mokuba

mayolady14 wrote: »

And men think they can rape and get away with it. Because they do. 98% of them.

An accusation of rape does not mean somebody was raped.

Wibbs

mayolady14 wrote: »

And men think they can rape and get away with it. Because they do. 98% of them.

Well there's a figure you pulled out of a hat, or from somewhere less delicate. Any figure like that is nothing but conjecture.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Mokuba wrote: »

I really wish they would sue some of the people on twitter still calling them rapists.

People think they can say whatever they like and get away with it.

I hooe they do and I think they should sue all Facebook twitter etc users who they can identify.
A case like that would set a legal precedent in Ireland that would finally end trial by social media.

I think all parties including witnesses and the lady In question should follow suit

irishrebe

seamus wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Well, I do have a legal background. Someone being acquitted of a rape does not mean a rape didn't happen. You cannot put it in those terms, legally.

Ah, that's not what we're talking about though.

As I say above, if you assert that she was raped, then the only logical outcome is that you believe someone else was in that room who did not appear in court.

It is logically incongruous to say that she was raped, but none of the people who raped her are rapists.

No. From a legal standpoint, you cannot categorically state that she was or wasn't raped. You can only state that it cannot be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the accused are guilty of the crime. That is very different to saying it didn't happen. No legal professional would word it as you did.

seamus

irishrebe wrote: »

Who said it did?

Let's shift focus a little to give a less contentious example.

Imagine you have the following scenario, the below being the facts;

1. A and B are in a room together
2. Nobody else enters or leaves the room
3. When B opens the door, A is found dead, having been stabbed in the back. B admits to having stabbed A in the back.
4. B is tried for murder
5. B is acquitted

Does this mean that A wasn't murdered? Yes, yes it does. A was "killed", but he wasn't murdered.

Likewise with this case, in absence of anyone else in that room, the fact that none of the men were found guilty of rape means that logically and legally, the woman was not raped. She may have been attacked. She may have been injured. She may have been degraded and humiliated.

But she wasn't raped. To even state that "it hasn't been proven that no rape happened", is to claim that the court is wrong.

mayolady14

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you were told to jump off a cliff because you were raped, would you? In Ireland, rape victims have anonymity; trials progress with publication of information which could identify the victim (or accused) being prohibited. You have decided that your rape incident did not warrant reporting but you have no experience of what it is like to go through a rape trial as the victim.

Excuse me for a second...do you?! I don’t really give a **** about anonymity tbh, I gave a **** about my mental health and what being forced to relive that in a court room would do to it. And we all know that everyone and their mother would know who I was. It’s a small country. I know what it’s like to be a victim of rape and not get justice. And I reported to the guards and was not believed.

mayolady14

Mokuba wrote: »

An accusation of rape does not mean somebody was raped.

Don’t see what a woman would go seek counseling in a rape crises center if she wasn’t raped.

irishrebe

Assetbacked wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Who said it did?

"Someone being acquitted of rape does not mean nothing happened". Equally, it does not mean something did happen.

Exactly. That's my point. There is absolutely no way to prove it either way, in this case, hence the language which is used.

Murdoc90

Was it revealed why Harrison wiped his phone?

pjohnson

mayolady14 wrote: »

Excuse me for a second...do you?! I don’t really give a **** about anonymity tbh, I gave a **** about my mental health and what being forced to relive that in a court room would do to it. And we all know that everyone and their mother would know who I was. It’s a small country. I know what it’s like to be a victim of rape and not get justice. And I reported to the guards and was not believed.

One guard who should have faced consequences for negligence.

Mr.H

mayolady14 wrote: »

Don’t see what a woman would go seek counseling in a rape crises center if she wasn’t raped.

Attention?

Men can do stupid things for attention so why cant women?

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

seamus wrote: »

Let's shift focus a little to give a less contentious example.

Imagine you have the following scenario, the below being the facts;

1. A and B are in a room together
2. Nobody else enters or leaves the room
3. When B opens the door, A is found dead, having been stabbed in the back. B admits to having stabbed A in the back.
4. B is tried for murder
5. B is acquitted

Does this mean that A wasn't murdered? Yes, yes it does. A was "killed", but he wasn't murdered.

Likewise with this case, in absence of anyone else in that room, the fact that none of the men were found guilty of rape means that logically and legally, the woman was not raped. She may have been attacked. She may have been injured. She may have been degraded and humiliated.

But she wasn't raped. To even state that "it hasn't been proven that no rape happened", is to claim that the court is wrong.

You are wrong. B being acquitted does not mean A was not murdered.

Assetbacked

mayolady14 wrote: »

Excuse me for a second...do you?! I don’t really give a **** about anonymity tbh, I gave a **** about my mental health and what being forced to relive that in a court room would do to it. And we all know that everyone and their mother would know who I was. It’s a small country. I know what it’s like to be a victim of rape and not get justice. And I reported to the guards and was not believed.

Well of course I don't think you're lying or that you haven't suffered; and I don't think that the person who put you through that suffering shouldn't suffer for the rest of their life. But ultimately you didn't endure a trial as a rape victim. Justifiably your views on this trial are clouded by your own experience, but this essentially means you can't look at the matter as an impartial observer.

mayolady14

pjohnson wrote: »

One guard who should have faced consequences for negligence.

One guard who made me feel like I wouldn’t be believed elsewhere.

Mokuba

mayolady14 wrote: »

Don’t see what a woman would go seek counseling in a rape crises center if she wasn’t raped.

So 100 percent of people who accuse another of rape go to rape crisis centres? That is what you have now inferred.

Where did you pluck that one from?

You're embarassing yourself at this point.

OwlsZat

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

You can say "The court found them not guilty of rape, but that doesn't mean they didn't rape her" 

A court verdict is based on evidence, if there isn't enough evidence to convict then that's the verdict, not guilty. It doesn't mean that the crime wasn't committed.

Our society is based on the assuming of innocent until proven guilty. You choose not to abide by that premise and you violate peoples basic human rights.

mayolady14

Assetbacked wrote: »

Well of course I don't think you're lying or that you haven't suffered; and I don't think that the person who put you through that suffering shouldn't suffer for the rest of their life. But ultimately you didn't endure a trial as a rape victim. Justifiably your views on this trial are clouded by your own experience, but this essentially means you can't look at the matter as an impartial observer.

My feelings are clear actually... I just know what it’s like to be a survivor of rape and not be believed.

seamus

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

You are wrong. B being acquitted does not mean A was not murdered.

How can someone have been murdered, but the person who killed them is not a murderer?

Likewise, how is it possible that a woman "may have been raped", when the person who had sex with her is not a rapist?

These are specific legal terms, not feelings or beliefs. Believing you have been raped does not mean you were raped. If the court does not agree that the guy who had sex with you raped you, then you weren't raped. However difficult that sounds, you were only raped if the court finds him guilty of rape.

Assetbacked

mayolady14 wrote: »

My feelings are clear actually... I just know what it’s like to be a survivor of rape and not be believed.

But we don't know this woman or even the full facts and therefore we can't say if that is how she feels.

mayolady14

Mokuba wrote: »

So 100 percent of people who accuse another of rape go to rape crisis centres? That is what you have now inferred.

Where did you pluck that one from?

You're embarassing yourself at this point.

I never said that obviously.

Bigmac1euro

irishrebe wrote: »

Yeah, I'm fine. Just ashamed to be Irish, reading this ****. What a nasty little country. So glad my children won't be growing up in a place where you can't have an abortion if you're raped, and where you're dragged over the coals and called a liar for daring to report a sexual assault which doesn't end in a conviction.

The trial wasn't in Ireland though

Sidebaro

Mokuba wrote:

So 100 percent of people who accuse another of rape go to rape crisis centres? That is what you have now inferred.

No it isn't?

Mokuba wrote:

Where did you pluck that one from?

Therefore, you're the one doing the plucking.

Mokuba wrote:

You're embarassing yourself at this point.

And you should be embarrassed.

ShowMeTheCash

mayolady14 wrote: »

My feelings are clear actually... I just know what it’s like to be a survivor of rape and not be believed.

Did the Gardi tell you they did not believe you?
Or did they tell you, you do not have case?

Uncharted

mayolady14 wrote: »

My feelings are clear actually... I just know what it’s like to be a survivor of rape and not be believed.

I don't believe you either..... should I be jailed too? I mean you say you don't and didn't want it all brought up again,which is fair enough.... Thats your perogative yet you keep mentioning it......

mayolady14

Assetbacked wrote: »

But we don't know this woman or even the full facts and therefore we can't say if that is how she feels.

Of course. But I can tell you I’m literally ashamed of every Irish man and woman who want this girl to be hung drawn and quartered for reporting what happened her. The way she is being spoken about it shocking. And shows why we don’t come forward more often