Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Faugheen

goz83 wrote: »

I thought it was clear that I was questioning you, so I don’t see how I proved your point. You didn’t answer my question either. And I don’t care what your gender is. Both men and women can be right, or wrong or exacting or delusional or whatever in-between. As you have said you are a man, what wou say in the scenario I posted? I can’t imagine you responding with “No problem, miss. Thanks for asking me not to rape you.”

But what you have done is questioned the idea of telling men not to rape.

The scenario in the restaurant with the female server shouldn't have to happen whatsoever. You should just know to not rape her. She shouldn't have to announce it at the table.

You dislike the idea of telling men not to rape so much that you've brought in silly scenarios to try to make a very important point moot. What is wrong with you?

tretorn

meeeeh wrote: »

You are so naive. You can't go against social media, you can't limit the damage. Threat to sue did do exactly opposite and caused more harm to PJ's career prospects. Olding's apology helped a bit, first stand from Jackson's solicitor made things even worse. Why do you think apology came a week later? They also won't sue for defamation, I think that much is clear. The best they can hope is that reporting on the case will slowly stop, I suspect another investigation is the last thing they want.

Most sensible people dont base their opinions on mad harpies postings on social media,they listen to expert opinion and factual evidence. Most people with a brain dont use twitter at all.

People who are very loud use twitter a lot and then the media think these loud people represent the majority, they dont represent anyone at all except those in their own echo chamber. Twitter users dont listen to anyone elses point of view, they will turn on O Riordan now for stepping back while being very careful themselves not to expose themselves to litigation.

upandcumming

Faugheen wrote: »

Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

Thanks for proving my point.

I'm a man, btw.

Ah that old chestnut!

"Saying rape culture does not exist means you support rape culture!"

upandcumming

tretorn wrote: »

Twitter users dont listen to anyone elses point of view, they will turn on O Riordan now for stepping back while being very vareful themselves not to expose themselves to litigation.

That has happened within minutes of the tweet.

as rape/SA victims believed you had their backs

Our defamation laws are pretty dire.

I believed rape victims had an ally in you, somebody that really understood the impact rape culture has on a case and public perception

Coward #IStillBelieveHer

Crazy.

Faugheen

upandcumming wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

Thanks for proving my point.

I'm a man, btw.

Ah that old chestnut!

"Saying rape culture does not exist means you support rape culture!"

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

ELM327

Faugheen wrote: »

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

Tell people not to rape. This is not a gender issue.
Tell people what to do if they are raped to ensure that the rapist is brought to justice.
Explain to people the importance to make good choices.

goz83

Faugheen wrote: »

But what you have done is questioned the idea of telling men not to rape.

The scenario in the restaurant with the female server shouldn't have to happen whatsoever. You should just know to not rape her. She shouldn't have to announce it at the table.

You dislike the idea of telling men not to rape so much that you've brought in silly scenarios to try to make a very important point moot. What is wrong with you?

So now you are saying men should just know? So why tell them not to rape women? Haha, your posts are just plain nut job stuff.

The scenario I painted was to highlight how ridiculous your post was. And you still didn't answer the question. Men shouldn't have to be told not to rape...but you said that we should tell men not to rape, so again, I put the scenario before you, where the server asks you kindly not to rape her. She is only doing what you said needs to be done, which is to tell men not to rape women. Or maybe you would prefer a general announcement over the raido every 10 minutes to warn men not to rape the servers? :rolleyes:

What I dislike is that you are obnoxiously saying that men should be told not to rape women and then clinging onto that assertion against the face common sense. Men know not to rape women. Women know not to rape men, or make false allegations...but alas, these things happen anyway, in error, or with intent.

meeeeh

tretorn wrote: »

Most sensible people dont base their opinions on mad harpies postings on social media,they listen to expert opinion and factual evidence. Most people with a brain dont use twitter at all.

People who are very loud use twitter a lot and then the media think these loud people represent the majority, they dont represent anyone at all exceptthose in their own echo chamber. Twitter users dont listen to anyone elses point of view, they will turn on O Riordan now for stepping back while being very vareful themselves not to expose themselves to litigation.

You still don't get it. There are opinion pieces on the subject still published in traditional media every day. It's the last thing you want, do you think sponsors want or clubs want prolonged discussion weather Olding and Jackson should be welcomed back considering all the What's App messages. Solicitor's statement after the trial caused more damage, they were forced into damage limitation last week with the apology but it could be too little too late.

Btw I'm not on twitter, I don't like the mob mentality that can develop there. Jackson can take on social media but more he engage lesser will be the chance of him ever playing for Ulster/Ireland again. It's slim anyway. If anything this case proved is how much damage the publicity can cause even if you are found not guilty.

DavidLyons_

Faugheen wrote: »

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape?? You claim you are a man, did you need to be told not to do it? If so I think you should seek professional help.

It is amongst the most reviled and disgusting crimes a person can commit. That is universally accepted.

What the bloody hell are you on about? You are labouring an absolute moot point.

Faugheen

ELM327 wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

Tell people not to rape. This is not a gender issue.
Tell people what to do if they are raped to ensure that the rapist is brought to justice.
Explain to people the importance to make good choices.

Thank you, you agree that men should be told not to rape.

And this absolutely is a gender issue IF (and pay attention here, it's a big if) people are talking about what women are wearing and what they should be doing on nights out and how they may be asking for it etc etc.

That's why I'm referring to men, because it was in response to a poster talking about what women should be doing to avoid it.

In your feeble attempt to be outraged, you've completely missed the point of the conversation.

Faugheen

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape?? You claim you are a man, did you need to be told not to do it? If so I think you should seek professional help.

It is amongst the most reviled and disgusting crimes a person can commit. That is universally accepted.

What the bloody hell are you on about? You are labouring an absolute moot point.

Because there's a number of men who just don't get it.

The majority of rape cases involve women who were raped by men known to them. Most rape cases don't involve some deranged fool just targeting a random woman for the sake of it.

I'm not labouring a moot point. If you think there's something wrong with the idea of telling men not to rape then that's your problem. Just because the likes of you or me get it doesn't mean everyone does.

As I said earlier, when I had to explain to some posters why it's wrong to perform a sex act on someone as they sleep, and they still question it, then why is my idea of explaining to men (and women) what is wrong so preposterous?

Maxpfizer

Faugheen wrote: »

Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

Thanks for proving my point.

I'm a man, btw.

I am curious.

How do you reaffirm this commitment to not rape people? Are you constantly reminding yourself to not do it or is it like a New Years resolution or something?

How zealously should men like you pursue this idea of telling other men not to rape?

Do you say it to every man you see or just some men or what? How often should I tell a man not to rape, in your opinion?

You'd be kind of wasting my time by telling me not to rape. I already would never do that.

Actually, it's such an obviously terrible thing to do I'd feel like you were being a bit patronising if you told me not to do it.

upandcumming

Faugheen wrote: »

You seem to be so against the idea of telling men not to rape.

I never anything of the sort?

Faugheen wrote: »

Why? Don't tell me I'm wrong to even suggest it. Explain it to me. That's how debating works.

Little snide comments with absolutely no reasons for your disagreement suggests you don't have any genuine reasons.

Why shouldn't we tell men not to rape? I'll put that question out there and wait with interest to see if someone can give me a legitimate answer. No silly scenarios, just a clear explanation.

There was nothing snide in my previous comment - that is what has been said in this thread.

As you ask, I don't really have an opinion on whether we should be telling men not to rape. My initial thoughts are that this shouldn't happen. Why? Because the overwhelming majority of men don't rape, despite what certain groups would have you believe. But I would have to consider this more.

Genuinely, if we started down this path, when would it end?

goz83

Faugheen wrote: »

Thank you, you agree that men should be told not to rape.

I think the poster highlighted PEOPLE. So no, not men....people. To suggest it's only men who rape is very naive. To suggest only men should be told not to rape is just pure wrong. Maybe you need to be told not to rape, but I like to think that all men (saving for some mentally challenged/disabled ones) know not to rape anyone.

But knowing something doesn't prevent everyone from doing it. Just look at the mother of 5 with close to 150 convictions for theft. She knows stealing is wrong. The courts have told her so on many occasions....but she still does it.

DavidLyons_

Faugheen wrote: »

Because there's a number of men who just don't get it.

The majority of rape cases involve women who were raped by men known to them. Most rape cases don't involve some deranged fool just targeting a random woman for the sake of it.

I'm not labouring a moot point. If you think there's something wrong with the idea of telling men not to rape then that's your problem. Just because the likes of you or me get it doesn't mean everyone does.

As I said earlier, when I had to explain to some posters why it's wrong to perform a sex act on someone as they sleep, and they still question it, then why is my idea of explaining to men (and women) what is wrong so preposterous?

I'd imagine that even rapists are aware of the severity of the crime. Horrible people exist in all walks of life. If some pontificating cnut attempted to moralise and explain to me or my teenage son as to how we should not become rapists, I'd be telling them to fcuk off away on their high-horse.

It is completely and absolutely accepted that the crime of rape is wrong - by everyone
Even rapists know this.

I did not see (or missed) you having to explain to anyone that performing a sex act on a sleeping person is wrong. However, I expect you may have picked up the wrong end of the stick given your stringent, stubborn stance on educating the male masses on reasons not to rape.

ShowMeTheCash

Faugheen wrote: »

Because there's a number of men who just don't get it.

The majority of rape cases involve women who were raped by men known to them. Most rape cases don't involve some deranged fool just targeting a random woman for the sake of it.

I'm not labouring a moot point. If you think there's something wrong with the idea of telling men not to rape then that's your problem. Just because the likes of you or me get it doesn't mean everyone does.

As I said earlier, when I had to explain to some posters why it's wrong to perform a sex act on someone as they sleep, and they still question it, then why is my idea of explaining to men (and women) what is wrong so preposterous?

The issue is you seem to think you analysis of the issues is correct.
And you "think" you get something that others do not.

The idea of telling someone "not to rape" is as about as valid as telling someone not to murder.

Your idea is lacking maturity it is the kind of thing you would say to a child.... Do not steal, do not hit your sister......

You have a very simplistic idea of the issues of rape in these scenarios you try and break them down too right and wrong, black and white.
I do not think you really understand nuance at all.

The case in question, this case had more to do with the fact that you had a room full of extremely drunk individuals and nothing to do with some ideological concept that men are unaware that rape is wrong.

BBDBB

Where will it all end?

Can someone help me create the following App



Swipe left for "yes", right for "no" and "down" if you wish to download a legal indemnity form for you to complete if you think you might get lucky on a first date.
Copies will be sent to you, your potential partner and her legal representation.
Please note copies will also be sent to your local Gards and your local TD for their views and may be retained on file as evidence in any future prosecution.

meeeeh

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

I did not see (or missed) you having to explain to anyone that performing a sex act on a sleeping person is wrong. However, I expect you may have picked up the wrong end of the stick given your stringent, stubborn stance on educating the male masses on reasons not to rape.

No the wrong end of stick was not picked. There was an idiot who claimed just that.

Faugheen

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

I'd imagine that even rapists are aware of the severity of the crime. Horrible people exist in all walks of life. If some pontificating cnut attempted to moralise and explain to me or my teenage son as to how we should not become rapists, I'd be telling them to fcuk off away on their high-horse.

It is completely and absolutely accepted that the crime of rape is wrong - by everyone
Even rapists know this.

I did not see (or missed) you having to explain to anyone that performing a sex act on a sleeping person is wrong. However, I expect you may have picked up the wrong end of the stick given your stringent, stubborn stance on educating the male masses on reasons not to rape.

No no, there was one poster in here who claimed that consent could not be withdrawn until the person woke up.

And not only that, the same poster is still convinced that there's no issue until the person wakes up, despite what I had said.

People are allowed to spread misinformation like that because some couples may enjoy being woken up to a bit of oral sex.

But once again, you assumed I got it wrong and that nobody really meant that. It never once dawned on you that there may be people on this board that think performing sex acts on sleeping people is absolutely acceptable. This is the point I've been making. People refuse to believe that men don't need to be told, and while this may be the case for the majority, if you're being told not to rape when you already get it, you're not going to rebel against that person and go out and rape.

There absolutely needs to be something done. And if telling men (or people) not to rape stops even one more rape case, then I'm absolutely fine with that.

FrancieBrady

meeeeh wrote: »

No the wrong end of stick was not picked. There was an idiot who claimed just that.

I think I am the 'idiot' being referred to.

Faugheen assumed that I was wandering around performing full sex acts on random sleeping some.

I wasnt and his latest trip into ridiculous unworkable fantasyland should tell you he is prone to exaggeration to get professing his view.

tretorn

The wrong end was picked.

A man who was in a committed relationship said he sometime tries his luck early in the morning.

His partner either says yes or no, if its no she turns away and growls, he doesnt force the issue and both parties are happy. Maybe the wife hates sex so much she would prefer to be comatose and as long as Husband is happy he doesnt care whether she is awake or asleep either.

Faugheen thinks he should have a say in this and in fact the Gardai should be notified because this is a CRIME. The poor man who mentioned he tries his luck was harassed on this thread, faugheen got so worked up about someone elses love life he practically said this man was a rapist.

For all we know faugheen may have reported the "CRIME" to the authorities and someone in the vice unit is monitoring this thread.

I may have to take on the Florence in nightingale role in order to prevent arrests.

Faugheen

tretorn wrote: »

The wrong end was picked.

A man who was in a committed relationship said he sometime tries his luck early in the morning.

His partner either says yes or no, if its no she turns away and growls, he doesnt force the issue and both parties are happy. Maybe the wife hates sex so much she would prefer to be comatose and as long as Husband is happy he doesnt care whether she is awake or asleep either.

Faugheen thinks he should have a say in this and in fact the Gardai should be notified because this is a CRIME. The poor man who mentioned he tries his luck was harassed on this thread, faugheen got so worked up about someone elses love life he practically said this man was a rapist.

For all we know faugheen may have reported the "CRIME" to the authorities and someone in the vice unit is monitoring this thread.

I may have to take on the Florence in nightingale role in order to prevent arrests.

Nope, Francie said performing sex acts on sleeping people is ok because they can't withdraw consent until they wake up.

No wrong end of the stick gotten there, my friend.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

And if she wakes up and says no, you're already in trouble.

You stop what you are doing.

If you persist, then it is assault.

Just in case people don't believe me, he specifically says if you persist after the person wakes up, then it is assault, not if you do it when the person is asleep.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

Nope, Francie said performing sex acts on sleeping people is ok because they can't withdraw consent until they wake up.

No wrong end of the stick gotten there, my friend.

What I was talking about is exactly what was outlined above. Please stop lying about it
You disappeared for a few days after getting caught out on another issue.

Fairly disreputable behaviour.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Nope, Francie said performing sex acts on sleeping people is ok because they can't withdraw consent until they wake up.

No wrong end of the stick gotten there, my friend.

What I was talking about is exactly what was outlined above. Please stop lying about it
You disappeared for a few days after getting caught out on another issue.

Fairly disreputable behaviour.

The post above yours says otherwise.

Tell me what your thoughts are on performing sex acts on sleeping people then, because the post above yours seems to imply that you think consent is only withdrawn when the person wakes up.

DavidLyons_

tretorn wrote: »

The wrong end was picked.

A man who was in a committed relationship said he sometime tries his luck early in the morning.

His partner either says yes or no, if its no she turns away and growls, he doesnt force the issue and both parties are happy. Maybe the wife hates sex so much she would prefer to be comatose and as long as Husband is happy he doesnt care whether she is awake or asleep either.

Faugheen thinks he should have a say in this and in fact the Gardai should be notified because this is a CRIME. The poor man who mentioned he tries his luck was harassed on this thread, faugheen got so worked up about someone elses love life he practically said this man was a rapist.

For all we know faugheen may have reported the "CRIME" to the authorities and someone in the vice unit is monitoring this thread.

I may have to take on the Florence in nightingale role in order to prevent arrests.

Sure didn't Jerry Hall used to wake up Jagger with a blowie every morning? It was her way of trying to prevent him from straying.

I told an old girlfriend about that and she gave it a go a couple of times. I was quite pleased with that.

Neither me, or especially Jagger, are the victims of a sexual assault in my opinion.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

The post above yours says otherwise.

Tell me what your thoughts are on performing sex acts on sleeping people then, because the post above yours seems to imply that you think consent is only withdrawn when the person wakes up.

I wont get back into it as there has been a mod post on discussing it.

ShowMeTheCash

Faugheen wrote: »

The post above yours says otherwise.

Tell me what your thoughts are on performing sex acts on sleeping people then, because the post above yours seems to imply that you think consent is only withdrawn when the person wakes up.

Go get yourself a dictionary and look up nuance.
Your arguments make you sound like you are either very young or very naive.

tretorn

He or she definitely has an unhealthy interest in what goes on in other peoples committed relationships.

Faugheen

Just like a lot of people here seems to have an unhealthy opposition against the idea of telling men not to rape.

Oh, and having no legitimate answer when challenged.

I bid you all good day.