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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #8732
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Fair enough but the point is still that I hire the best and I pay for the best. Anyway in the example I might admit to being a crime boss but I actually mightn't have done that particular crime.

    Yes, but your point was tainted by a high likelihood of guilt because you said you were a major crime boss, rather than just having been accused of being one. In the eyes of any unbiased viewer, it would be an outrage to pay the legal fees under the circumstances outlaid in your anology.

    And to answer your follow up post here, I would say the edited analogy is akin to a convicted serial rapist being accused of another rape but being found not guilty due to lack of evidence and then having the state cover the fees. Crime bosses commit crime. Serial rapists rape people. We may not know of or be able to prove their guilt in all cases, but I am sure you see my point.

    I am of the view that the costs of the lads legal fees should be covered by the state. If nothing else, it will discourage weak cases being brought to court, resulting in higher conviction rates.


  • #8733
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    tretorn wrote: »
    That is really sensible advice and most women who heed it manage to get home safe after nights out. You can scream and throw all your toys out of the pram but that is the truth.

    Most sensible parents say this to their daughters as they head out to nightclubs, dont drink, dont take drugs, stay with your friends. They dont dd the bit about engaging in casual sex with strangers becausee sensible parents think this doesnt need to be said. Parents dont usually worry about sons going out half as much but after the Beelfast case parents will be warning sons about one night stands and to learn from jacksons experience that you need to get consent in writing or risk a ten year prison sentence.

    Most women are raped by people they know. What sensible advice would you give to me to ensure my partner, friend, relative etc. doesn't rape me?


  • #8734
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Lux23 wrote: »
    Eh, you saw Paddy Jackson's apology of last week? He has no chance of winning a libel case now.


    There is nothing in Jacksons aplogy to show he wont win a defamation case.

    no one can call him a rapist without risk of being sued. I notice the media are very careful now, they are saying the victim left his house crying, they arent saying she was covered in blood or brutalised like some people are still claiminghere.

    Jackson apologised because a guest(uninvited) to his home left upset. He didnt apologise for her upset or admit in anyway he caused it. Its the same as if I have an argument in my house and someone leaves upset, I would probably apologise becasue I woudnt like anyone leaving my house upset but I would be apologising for the argument causing upset, I wouldnt be changing my point of view on the argument though in anyway.

    Oldings apology was exactly the same, he apologised that the womans perception of events was different to his, he didnt say she made clear in anyway that she wasnt happy to be in the bedroom with himself and Jackson.

    The woman in my opinion should now apologise too for her role in the nights events. She shouldnt have gone uninvited to Jacksons house and she shouldnt have followed him upstairs. She should have made it completely clear that she didnt want to participate in the threesome either by word or by simply leaving the room. Jackson testified he would never have stopped her leaving and she needs to acknowledge that, she left when she decided to go and no body stopped her. She wasnt dragged up to the bedroom, she went of her own free will.

    It will be very interesting to see what evidence was deemed in inadmissable during the trial.

    The public also need to know the outcome of any investigation that takes place into the decision to bring this case to court, its the least taxpayers can expect when over a millions sterling of their tax has been spent on this trial, hopefully the files are subject to freedom of Information requests, if they arent we will never be told the truth of the matter.


  • #8735
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    Lux23 wrote: »
    Most women are raped by people they know. What sensible advice would you give to me to ensure my partner, friend, relative etc. doesn't rape me?

    Choose your partners and friends wisely. Don’t drink so much that you can’t walk straight. Don’t snork coke. Drugs are baad.


  • #8736
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    goz83 wrote: »
    Yes, but your point was tainted by a high likelihood of guilt because you said you were a major crime boss, rather than just having been accused of being one. In the eyes of any unbiased viewer, it would be an outrage to pay the legal fees under the circumstances outlaid in your anology.

    And to answer your follow up post here, I would say the edited analogy is akin to a convicted serial rapist being accused of another rape but being found not guilty due to lack of evidence and then having the state cover the fees. Crime bosses commit crime. Serial rapists rape people. We may not know of or be able to prove their guilt in all cases, but I am sure you see my point.

    I am of the view that the costs of the lads legal fees should be covered by the state. If nothing else, it will discourage weak cases being brought to court, resulting in higher conviction rates.

    I gave you a "fair enough" on the last one but I'm afraid I don't see your point on this one because you haven't a leg to stand on. If PJ is entitled to his legal costs back, everyone in every court case found not guilty is entitled to their legal costs back. Now he could sue the state and if he was able to prove that it was a weak case and the state knew it was a weak case then yes he gets his costs back. Otherwise I'm afraid he is exactly the same as every 'non guilty' person.
    And personally I think even a convicted rapist is entitled to due process.


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  • #8737
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    goz83 wrote: »
    Lux23 wrote: »
    Most women are raped by people they know. What sensible advice would you give to me to ensure my partner, friend, relative etc. doesn't rape me?

    Choose your partners and friends wisely. Don’t drink so much that you can’t walk straight. Don’t snork coke. Drugs are baad.

    Or, just maybe, we could ask men to, you know, not rape people?

    Don't victim blame. It sums up exactly what people mean when they say we have a rape culture here.


  • #8738
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    tretorn wrote: »
    Its the same as if I have an argument in my house and someone leaves upset, I would probably apologise becasue I woudnt like anyone leaving my house upset but I would be apologising for the argument causing upset, I wouldnt be changing my point of view on the argument though in anyway.

    Similar to how people say "im sorry for your loss"

    The person saying sorry hasnt done anything wrong but they are sorry you are experiencing traumu or anguish


  • #8739
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    jm08 wrote: »
    People have every right to protest at having Evans at the club bearing in mind what he admitted to. He also had the nerve to say afterwards that women should be careful of getting drunk and how they behave because they might end up in the hands of a real rapist!

    The issue here is more and more people now do not give a sh1t about these protests they have been derailed and exposed for what they are social justice mobs. They did not get the ruling in the courts so aim to destroy people by other means. When a cause makes sense and fair people can and will get behind it but these protests are increasingly becoming gatherings for harpy feminists.

    I see there is now a petition against Matt Damon for saying:

    "There is a spectrum of behavior"
    "There is a difference between patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, both of these behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they should not be conflated."

    I think the hash tag is #damonsplaining

    20,000 people have signed a petition to have him removed from his latest movie over his comments......

    This is the kind of madness you are feeding!


  • #8740
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Or, just maybe, we could ask men to, you know, not rape people?

    Don't victim blame. It sums up exactly what people mean when they say we have a rape culture here.

    Telling someone to be careful before something happens is called advice

    Telling them after something happens to them is called victim blaming

    Get it right


  • #8741
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,303 ✭✭✭C__MC


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    So this happened

    https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/983282392113836032

    Obviously his legal team told him to do it because trouble is probably ciming his way in the line of a libel suit.

    The lawyers for jackson have said they are examing all social media regarding the case and plan to take high court proceedings againts any defamation

    A rude welcome to senior hurling for aodhan. His tweet was low to say the least and goes against the values of a senator. Thought he could buy more support but didn’t want to dragged into a legal battle.


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  • #8742
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Grayson wrote: »

    Deranged and damaged? What's wrong with you? Ireland has some of the lowest participation for women in politics in the developed world.
    We currently have one of the highest participation levels we've ever had and it's still pitifully low.

    We're 78th in the world. Countries that have a higher participation include Iraq and Afghanistan.

    http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm

    Wanting to see a parity is not deranged and people who'd like to see it are not damaged.
    I'd suggest that people who have your kind of visceral reaction to a suggestion that we have more people in parliament have some kind of twisted ideology. There's something wrong with you if you think that someone who thinks that we should have better participation than Iraq or Afghanistan is deranged and damaged.
    The misandry being constantly spewed by that poster is nothing short of a disgrace. The quoted post insinuated that our male elected representatives do not protect our female citizens properly.

    The quotas suggestion is bullsh1t and if there are suitable and capable female candidates they are surely getting elected.

    Oh and I never said "deranged". In your angry rush to pontificate, you read something that isn't even there. Albeit that it is an apt description.


  • #8743
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    BBDBB wrote: »
    2 years of 4 young mens lives put on hold.
    Career ambitions, educational achievement, employment opportunities all stymied
    Press camped outside your house, photos and facts about your life regurgitated again and again to fill out news articles with limited new information
    Friends and neighbours gossiping about you every time you or your family show your face outside the door
    Months of preparation for a trial, stress and anxiety for you and your family
    9 weeks of a trial where your future is at stake, photographed every day going into court
    scrutiny over what you wear, what you look like, what you are poured over in the press
    social media pre judging you by the court reports in the press as the story unfolds, with no pretence about due process, right to reply or any semblance of a fair go of it

    It takes a jury less than 4 hours, thats between right now and lunchtime to return a not guilty verdict. After months of pressure and stress on you and your family, it takes less than an hour per accusation, less than an hour per accused person for those who heard the evidence to determine you aren't guilty.
    You still face an internal investigation by the two interested bodies who control your career path, both potential employers, although with two years out of the game you aren't at your peak form anyway.

    Every word out your mouth is analysed as to whether its satisfactory to the mob
    Social media decides that the verdict isn't right and instead of facing a trial in the legal system of the land you face a trial by social media who have already decided you are guilty. They haven't heard all the evidence, but are sure you are guilty and so your punishment will be determined by a petition because clearly thats the only way justice will be served?

    Theres a line where justice becomes spiteful blind vengeance, I think we are there now, time to back away and let all four start to rebuild their lives as best they can

    Excellent post, every angle has been covered.

    The most unjust part of all is the fact that the verdict is still not being accepted by the twitter mob. The only thing stopping them calling Paddy jackson a rapist on twitter is his threat to take libel proceedings.

    Aodhan O Riordan has had his wings clipped and he will think twice in future about defamation laws before he disrespects a lawful verdict.


  • #8744
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,826 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    The misandry being constantly spewed by that poster is nothing short of a disgrace. The quoted post insinuated that our male elected representatives do not protect our female citizens properly.

    The quotas suggestion is bullsh1t and if there are suitable and capable female candidates they are surely getting elected.

    I'd say that women would probably be better at highlighting women's issues than men would. That doesn't make me a misandrist does it?
    I also think it's a disgrace that Iraq and afghanistan have higher levels of participation.

    So, am I deranged and damaged?

    Edit: I just saw your edit. Damaged and dangerous then. Because whilst you'd call someone damaged, deranged is too far for you?


  • #8745
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,826 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    tretorn wrote: »
    Excellent post, every angle has been covered.

    The most unjust part of all is the fact that the verdict is still not being accepted by the twitter mob. The only thing stopping them calling Paddy jackson a rapist on twitter is his threat to take libel proceedings.

    Aodhan O Riordan has had his wings clipped and he will think twice in future about defamation laws before he disrespects a lawful verdict.

    So are you telling me 100% that OJ did not kill his wife?

    It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with a verdict.


  • #8746
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Telling someone to be careful before something happens is called advice

    Telling them after something happens to them is called victim blaming

    Get it right


    Victim blaming.... Another crazy feminist concept that people are fed up with.

    It is not her fault she got raped, but was she irresponsible?
    Highlighting any irresponsibility on her part according to feminists is "victim blaming!" And you are not allowed to do it, any suggesting of victim blaming then the feminists will come for you too!
    To anyone else with any logical thinking it acts as a lesson around how not to act and how being irresponsible can expose you to potential dangers.


  • #8747
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Grayson wrote: »
    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    The misandry being constantly spewed by that poster is nothing short of a disgrace. The quoted post insinuated that our male elected representatives do not protect our female citizens properly.

    The quotas suggestion is bullsh1t and if there are suitable and capable female candidates they are surely getting elected.

    I'd say that women would probably be better at highlighting women's issues than men would. That doesn't make me a misandrist does it?
    I also think it's a disgrace that Iraq and afghanistan have higher levels of participation.

    So, am I deranged and damaged?
    I dunno. I never said anyone was "deranged". That's your word.

    I have taken the view that I have of the poster from ALL of their postings - not just the one that you would like to dwell on.


  • #8748
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,826 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    I dunno. I never said anyone was "deranged". That's your word.

    I have taken the view that I have of the poster from ALL of their postings - not just the one that you would like to dwell on.

    So you agree with me that Ireland needs more women in parliament. And that women would, in general, be better advocates for women's issues?


  • #8749
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    I didnt follow the OJ case so I dont know what evidence was there to acquit or convict him.

    There was no evidence in the Belfast case and it was quite clear from early on that the case should never have been brought.

    In many rape cases its he said or she said and youu might have forensic evidence to prove whether a rape occured.

    You have people here claiming the PPS had enough evidence but you then have Olding charged with vaginal rape even though internal swabs taken from the woman show no semen present, Olding had that charge hanging over him for sixteen months and then it was withdrawan because "new evidence" became available, what new evidence, are the public entitled to more information than this.

    The PSNI unusually in rape cases had an independent witness and once she spoke up that was enough to introduce a whole lot of doubt, Dara Florence was very brave to say what she saw, she could have just said I saw nothing. She has drawn the twitter mob who wont see reason on her head and her life has been changed by this case too.

    At least in this case though her evidence wasnt suppressed, other men convicted of rape havent been so lucky.


  • #8750
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Grayson wrote: »
    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    I dunno. I never said anyone was "deranged". That's your word.

    I have taken the view that I have of the poster from ALL of their postings - not just the one that you would like to dwell on.

    So you agree with me that Ireland needs more women in parliament. And that women would, in general, be better advocates for women's issues?
    I would be more than happy and would welcome more female TDs, if they are the best candidates. I think we need the best most suitable elected representatives in our parliament.

    Democracy does it's own work.

    I do not want anyone in the Dail (male or female) peddling the rape culture myth.


  • #8751
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Grayson wrote: »
    So you agree with me that Ireland needs more women in parliament. And that women would, in general, be better advocates for women's issues?


    Are you going to force these women into Parliament?
    From graduation to university do we have the numbers of woman who are interested in politics?


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  • #8752
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Appledreams15 wrote:
    When you have a nearly all male government, how do you expect women to be taken care of in this country?

    Grayson wrote:
    Wanting to see a parity is not deranged and people who'd like to see it are not damaged. I'd suggest that people who have your kind of visceral reaction to a suggestion that we have more people in parliament have some kind of twisted ideology. There's something wrong with you if you think that someone who thinks that we should have better participation than Iraq or Afghanistan is deranged and damaged.

    Wanting parity of outcome is absolutely deranged. Women have the same opportunities to be in government. Trying to impose a 50/50 quota for 'parity' instead of voting for who you want in is dangerous, ridiculous and deranged.

    Where is the call for 50/50 representation in schools, nursing, sanitation, construction?


  • #8753
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Put yourself forward for election appledream if you want more women in politics.

    Dont sit around waiting for other women to do the huge work thats involved in getting a mandate, get yorself out there and put your money where your mouth is.


  • #8754
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Similar to how people say "im sorry for your loss"

    The person saying sorry hasnt done anything wrong but they are sorry you are experiencing traumu or anguish

    Very true except for one little thing. When you go on to say words like degrading and unacceptable etc in relation to your own behaviour, that it was against your values and that criticism was justified, you kinda are saying you were wrong, wouldn't you think ? None so blind etc.


  • #8755
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Grayson wrote: »
    So you agree with me that Ireland needs more women in parliament. And that women would, in general, be better advocates for women's issues?

    Why would women be better advocates for women’s issues? You’re assuming they’d look after their own grouping better than men. After all men in elected positions have been piss poor in dealing with men’s issues:

    - homelessness is an epidemic that is dramatically over represented in men,
    - fathers rights are appallingly weak while cabinet sub committees peddle myths about fathers taking paternity leave to play golf
    -serious mental health issues (again a huge issue for men) receive lip service

    There plenty more I could list.

    It could be taken as a damning indictment of male politicians except women who’ve had the relevant roles have been as poor

    That’s said, generally politicians are elected to represent all people so maybe they shouldn’t be focusing just on their own group.


  • #8756
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I gave you a "fair enough" on the last one but I'm afraid I don't see your point on this one because you haven't a leg to stand on. If PJ is entitled to his legal costs back, everyone in every court case found not guilty is entitled to their legal costs back. Now he could sue the state and if he was able to prove that it was a weak case and the state knew it was a weak case then yes he gets his costs back. Otherwise I'm afraid he is exactly the same as every 'non guilty' person.
    And personally I think even a convicted rapist is entitled to due process.

    I am of the opinion that someone found not guilty should have their costs covered in any case, especially if taken by the state. Why should a person found not guilty be left with hefty legal fees?

    I agree...everyone is entitled to due process. I was making the point that a convicted serial rapist would most likely be guilty of another alleged rape....similar to a major mob boss most likey being guilty of the alleged crime put before her.
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Or, just maybe, we could ask men to, you know, not rape people?

    Don't victim blame. It sums up exactly what people mean when they say we have a rape culture here.

    Have you ever asked any if the males in your family not to rape you. What would you say if you were out having a meal with some of your male family and friends and the female server took everyones order and before leaving, she says “Oh and to the men at the table, I would ask kindly that none of you rape me, I have to get home early tonight.”


    Grayson wrote: »
    So you agree with me that Ireland needs more women in parliament. And that women would, in general, be better advocates for women's issues?

    Do you think men in power have been good at highlighing mens issues? Your sexism is nauseating. Sure look at that TCD senator who suggested that female prisons should be closed, insinuating that only men deserve to be incarcerated. The same senator held a female only assembly and explicitly excluded males from attending, even though a male counterpart expressed a wish to attend. If the shoe were on the other foot there would be marches up and down the country with placards calling all men trash.


  • #8757
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    tretorn wrote: »
    There is nothing in Jacksons aplogy to show he wont win a defamation case.

    no one can call him a rapist without risk of being sued. I notice the media are very careful now, they are saying the victim left his house crying, they arent saying she was covered in blood or brutalised like some people are still claiminghere.

    Jackson apologised because a guest(uninvited) to his home left upset. He didnt apologise for her upset or admit in anyway he caused it. Its the same as if I have an argument in my house and someone leaves upset, I would probably apologise becasue I woudnt like anyone leaving my house upset but I would be apologising for the argument causing upset, I wouldnt be changing my point of view on the argument though in anyway.

    Oldings apology was exactly the same, he apologised that the womans perception of events was different to his, he didnt say she made clear in anyway that she wasnt happy to be in the bedroom with himself and Jackson.

    The woman in my opinion should now apologise too for her role in the nights events. She shouldnt have gone uninvited to Jacksons house and she shouldnt have followed him upstairs. She should have made it completely clear that she didnt want to participate in the threesome either by word or by simply leaving the room. Jackson testified he would never have stopped her leaving and she needs to acknowledge that, she left when she decided to go and no body stopped her. She wasnt dragged up to the bedroom, she went of her own free will.

    It will be very interesting to see what evidence was deemed in inadmissable during the trial.

    The public also need to know the outcome of any investigation that takes place into the decision to bring this case to court, its the least taxpayers can expect when over a millions sterling of their tax has been spent on this trial, hopefully the files are subject to freedom of Information requests, if they arent we will never be told the truth of the matter.

    You are so naive. You can't go against social media, you can't limit the damage. Threat to sue did do exactly opposite and caused more harm to PJ's career prospects. Olding's apology helped a bit, first stand from Jackson's solicitor made things even worse. Why do you think apology came a week later? They also won't sue for defamation, I think that much is clear. The best they can hope is that reporting on the case will slowly stop, I suspect another investigation is the last thing they want.


  • #8758
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    goz83 wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Or, just maybe, we could ask men to, you know, not rape people?

    Don't victim blame. It sums up exactly what people mean when they say we have a rape culture here.

    Have you ever asked any if the males in your family not to rape you. What would you say if you were out having a meal with some of your male family and friends and the female server took everyones order and before leaving, she says “Oh and to the men at the table, I would ask kindly that none of you rape me, I have to get home early tonight."

    Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

    Thanks for proving my point.

    I'm a man, btw.


  • #8759
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote:
    Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

    Or we could just make it illegal.... Oh wait...


  • #8760
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Or we could just make it illegal.... Oh wait...

    So you think the exact same thing? We shouldn't have to say anything at all to people about raping?

    But, we should be telling women constantly about what clothes they're wearing or what have you.

    I've had to (unsuccessfully) explain to more than one man in this thread why it's wrong to perform sex acts on people while they are sleeping, but they thought consent can only be withdrawn when they wake up.

    There is a real ignorance among a lot of men as to what's acceptable and what's not.


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  • #8761
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    Faugheen wrote: »

    Just so we're clear here, you're questioning the idea of telling men not to rape people?

    Thanks for proving my point.

    I'm a man, btw.

    I thought it was clear that I was questioning you, so I don’t see how I proved your point. You didn’t answer my question either. And I don’t care what your gender is. Both men and women can be right, or wrong or exacting or delusional or whatever in-between. As you have said you are a man, what wou say in the scenario I posted? I can’t imagine you responding with “No problem, miss. Thanks for asking me not to rape you.”


This discussion has been closed.
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