Russian Foreign Policy Megamix

mcmoustache

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They are trading short term gain for long term international credibility loss

Troll factories, twitter bots, fake bloggers, state media, foreign language propaganda outlets.. these tools aren't going to last forever, if countries weren't convinced before, they are now

Yeah, this is exactly it. This works the first few times but after a while, people cop on to it.
Now, propaganda can be tracked in near real time. It's actually fascinating. This guy below is a good twitter follow to show how all this works.

https://twitter.com/conspirator0

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yeah, this is exactly it. This works the first few times but after a while, people cop on to it.
Now, propaganda can be tracked in near real time. It's actually fascinating. This guy below is a good twitter follow to show how all this works.

https://twitter.com/conspirator0

If you are suffering from this phobia visit a doctor right away!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Discodog

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

If you are suffering from this phobia visit a doctor right away!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

I am simply not going to bother replying to you. It's a total waste of time.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

If you are suffering from this phobia visit a doctor right away!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

I think you should read your link. McCarthyism was a witch hunt.

In the case of the Russian disinformation program there is ample evidence. In the case of twitter bots for example, the API allows accounts to be analysed for things like posting frequency = accounts that retweet hundreds of times a day at regular intervals, for example would strongly suggest automation. This would probably be better discussed in Demfad's thread on Russian interference.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It's the reality on the ground Syrian people in Douma witnessed no chemical attack.

.. according to the conspiracy theories and propaganda put out by the Kremlin.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but have you seen videos of the aftermath of the attack?

And sorry am going off topic here.

charlie14

Dohnjoe wrote: »

.. according to the conspiracy theories and propaganda put out by the Kremlin.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but have you seen videos of the aftermath of the attack?

And sorry am going off topic here.

When a journalist of Robert Fisk`s standing, a man who has lived and worked in the Middle East for thirty years publishes and article, I for one would be very reticent about suggesting he is some sort of Russian stooge.

He, and other journalists visited Douma and were allowed to wander freely.
Fisk without any Russian or Syrian security personnel talked to locals who had not the vaguest idea about any chemical attack.
He also visited the hospital where the video of water being poured over those children was shot and talked to a doctor in the hospital who also told him there was no chemical attack.
The doctor told him that the water throwing resulted from a White Helmet at the door of the hospital shouting chemical attack.

According to the doctor those children were being treated for hypoxia, not a chemical attack.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

.. according to the conspiracy theories and propaganda put out by the Kremlin.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but have you seen videos of the aftermath of the attack?

And sorry am going off topic here.

I not going to trust in any video uploaded by the White Helmets to the Web. The leader of the White Helmets in Aleppo, where this organisation sprung from, was pictured with a group of Al Nusra and FSA fighters. He was smiling while holding a gun in his arms.

If this information was delivered by the Red Cross I would believe it.

Cheerful Spring

Discodog wrote: »

I am simply not going to bother replying to you. It's a total waste of time.

Anyone who disagreed with you people was called a Russian bot in another thread on After Hour. I was even accused by one guy that I was working in the Russian Embassy in Dublin (delusional) and you guys were liking that crap.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Anyone who disagreed with you people was called a Russian bot in another thread on After Hour. I was even accused by one guy that I was working in the Russian Embassy in Dublin (delusional) and you guys were liking that crap.

That accusation was stupid. I suggested in another AH that you could be a paid shill. That was also stupid.

In reality, there are a lot of Baltic Russians over here who choose to be here because Russia is a shíthole. Like Nigeria except whiter. They'll never live there because they know that it's a shíthole.

They get their news from Russian media and have a more nationalistic bent than real Russians and have a compulsion to defend, or rather, to repeat the same talking points that their news services provide.

They enjoy the freedoms and the standard of living here but they convince themselves that there is something wrong with it that has been fixed by Putin. They're convinced that Russia is better than the west but there's no way that they would live there. In their hearts, they know that Russia is a shítty place to live but with a bit of misplaced nationalism, they'll defend dear leader even though they know deep down, that Russia isn't a good enough country for them.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

If this information was delivered by the Red Cross I would believe it.

Yah, I've heard this "line" before many times.

International Red Cross

"The ICRC has been shocked by the repeated use of chemical weapons over the past four years in Syria, confirmed by the findings of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and United Nations investigations, including the Joint Investigative Mechanism. "
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/conference-chemical-weapons-convention-2016

Human Rights Watch

• Government warplanes appear to have dropped bombs with nerve agents on at least four occasions since December 12, including in Khan Sheikhoun
• The government’s use of helicopter-dropped chlorine-filled munitions has become more systematic
• Government or pro-government ground-forces have started using improvised ground-launched munitions containing chlorine.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/05/01/death-chemicals/syrian-governments-widespread-and-systematic-use-chemical-weapons


Amnesty International

The Syrian government’s use of internationally banned chemical weapons was laid bare once again on 4 February when a chlorine gas attack on the town of Saraqeb left 11 people in need of emergency treatment, according to testimony gathered by Amnesty International.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/syria-witness-testimony-reveals-details-of-illegal-chemical-attack-on-saraqeb/


Russian government 2013 to present

"LOL, another "gas" attack, staged! fake news!"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/rt-breached-broadcasting-rules-over-claims-bbc-faked-pictures-of-syrian-chemical-attack-says-ofcom-10511515.html

mcmoustache

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yah, I've heard this "line" before many times.

International Red Cross



Human Rights Watch

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/05/01/death-chemicals/syrian-governments-widespread-and-systematic-use-chemical-weapons


Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/syria-witness-testimony-reveals-details-of-illegal-chemical-attack-on-saraqeb/


Russian government 2013 to present

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/rt-breached-broadcasting-rules-over-claims-bbc-faked-pictures-of-syrian-chemical-attack-says-ofcom-10511515.html

But you see, these are all part of the conspiracy to create a false flag attack...

It's getting ridiculous at this stage.

It's like the Russians are getting tips from Alex Jones. "Staged", "Crisis Actors", "False Flag". There was a time not that long ago that that sort of nonsense wouldn't even be entertained but here we are - the age of disinformatsia.

charlie14

mcmoustache wrote: »

But you see, these are all part of the conspiracy to create a false flag attack...

It's getting ridiculous at this stage.

It's like the Russians are getting tips from Alex Jones. "Staged", "Crisis Actors", "False Flag". There was a time not that long ago that that sort of nonsense wouldn't even be entertained but here we are - the age of disinformatsia.

So what are you saying.

You believe Robert Fisk is publishing fake news on behalf of Russia ?

Dohnjoe

This thread is getting successfully derailed and deflected (whats new)

Not much new info on the Skripal case. I see the latest conspiracy theory by the Russian ambassador is that the Skripals were injected by UK authorities with the nerve agent - someone was keeping count of these, we're up to 15 now? (somewhere else mentioned up to 22 different scenarios presented by Russian sources)

mcmoustache

charlie14 wrote: »

So what are you saying.

You believe Robert Fisk is publishing fake news on behalf of Russia ?

No, he's not. I believe that he's broadcasting the information that he's allowed to see. I have a fair amount of respect for the guy - over the years, he exposed a lot of the atrocities committed by the Israel and the west. He informed us of things that we would never see on the news.

That doesn't make him infallible, though.

All through his life, he has been focused on the crimes of the US and Britain in the middle east and correctly so. I think that he has fallen into the trap of neglecting or not being aware of the crimes that Russia, the opposition, has committed. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I don't think he's lying. I think he's giving an honest impression based on the information available but he's not as skeptical about Russia as he is about the west.

charlie14

mcmoustache wrote: »

No, he's not. I believe that he's broadcasting the information that he's allowed to see. I have a fair amount of respect for the guy - over the years, he exposed a lot of the atrocities committed by the Israel and the west. He informed us of things that we would never see on the news.

That doesn't make him infallible, though.

All through his life, he has been focused on the crimes of the US and Britain in the middle east and correctly so. I think that he has fallen into the trap of neglecting or not being aware of the crimes that Russia, the opposition, has committed. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I don't think he's lying. I think he's giving an honest impression based on the information available but he's not as skeptical about Russia as he is about the west.

That actually made me laugh.

People on here think with over 30 years reporting on the conflicts in the Middle East is so gullible that he can be lead by the nose, yet quote articles from the Daily Mail as fact.

Mad stuff Ted.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yah, I've heard this "line" before many times.

International Red Cross



Human Rights Watch

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/05/01/death-chemicals/syrian-governments-widespread-and-systematic-use-chemical-weapons


Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/syria-witness-testimony-reveals-details-of-illegal-chemical-attack-on-saraqeb/


Russian government 2013 to present

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/rt-breached-broadcasting-rules-over-claims-bbc-faked-pictures-of-syrian-chemical-attack-says-ofcom-10511515.html

Red Cross link you posted: We strongly condemn any use of chemical weapons, by any party, anywhere. We are deeply alarmed by the allegations of continuing use during 2016. They don't blame the Syrian government

Human Right watch: Based out of New York. So it's influenced by what they hear in US media

Amnesty International: Report was given to them by the White Helmets, its junk.

UK paper: What more do I need to say?

Dohnjoe

charlie14 wrote: »

People on here think with over 30 years reporting on the conflicts in the Middle East

I've been following Fisk on and off since the Iraq war, veteran reporter? yes, experienced? absolutely, impartial? not in the slightest. He is extremely critical of the US and Israel and makes no secret of it. It gets him access to places that other reporters wouldn't get to, including being one of the few (the only?) Western reporters embedded with Assad's forces in a conflict where journalists have been targeted by said forces

Perhaps his report is spot on, but knowing his style of commentary reporting (especially in recent years), yeah I'd wait for some consensus and investigation on the issue.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Red Cross link you posted: We strongly condemn any use of chemical weapons, by any party, anywhere. We are deeply alarmed by the allegations of continuing use during 2016. They don't blame the Syrian government

Human Right watch: Based out of New York. So it's influenced by what they hear in US media

Amnesty International: Report was given to them by the White Helmets, its junk.

UK paper: What more do I need to say?

Extreme views but predictable, and that's perfectly fine. This is all your own personal opinion, and it's noted.

If the opposing view in a thread is solely represented (or dominated) by such extreme views then it doesn't serve that side of the debate very well. In fact, it probably serves the other side better. And I'm fine with that.

Trasna1

Question for the history buffs here. Has Ireland ever had a diplomat expelled before?

ancapailldorcha

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Anyone who disagreed with you people was called a Russian bot in another thread on After Hour. I was even accused by one guy that I was working in the Russian Embassy in Dublin (delusional) and you guys were liking that crap.

Serious discussion only please. Also, don't bring up other forums here.

charlie14

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I've been following Fisk on and off since the Iraq war, veteran reporter? yes, experienced? absolutely, impartial? not in the slightest. He is extremely critical of the US and Israel and makes no secret of it. It gets him access to places that other reporters wouldn't get to, including being one of the few (the only?) Western reporters embedded with Assad's forces in a conflict where journalists have been targeted by said forces

Perhaps his report is spot on, but knowing his style of commentary reporting (especially in recent years), yeah I'd wait for some consensus and investigation on the issue.

Which might have been a thought for the US, Britain and France, rather than like the first two mentioned militarily rush in as they did on a similar basis in Iraq.

Gatling

charlie14 wrote: »

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I've been following Fisk on and off since the Iraq war, veteran reporter? yes, experienced? absolutely, impartial? not in the slightest. He is extremely critical of the US and Israel and makes no secret of it. It gets him access to places that other reporters wouldn't get to, including being one of the few (the only?) Western reporters embedded with Assad's forces in a conflict where journalists have been targeted by said forces

Perhaps his report is spot on, but knowing his style of commentary reporting (especially in recent years), yeah I'd wait for some consensus and investigation on the issue.

Which might have been a thought for the US, Britain and France, rather than like the first two mentioned militarily rush in as they did on a similar basis in Iraq.

They didn't bomb the site of the chemical weapons attack that's the important one in the current situation ,
They bombed labs which were known chemical weapons production sites .
This is why the investigation is being blocked to allow time for any chlorine to completely disapate,
It's like how russia came out yesterday and claimed they shot down 70 of the latest missles fired by France ,UK and the state's but somehow declined to show any evidence that they managed to track , target and shoot down any missles that came at them ,
More deflection and denials to keep up the rouse

charlie14

Gatling wrote: »

They didn't bomb the site of the chemical weapons attack that's the important one in the current situation ,
They bombed labs which were known chemical weapons production sites .
This is why the investigation is being blocked to allow time for any chlorine to completely disapate,
It's like how russia came out yesterday and claimed they shot down 70 of the latest missles fired by France ,UK and the state's but somehow declined to show any evidence that they managed to track , target and shoot down any missles that came at them ,
More deflection and denials to keep up the rouse

Actually what is important in the current situation is if there actually was a chemical attack in Douma.

Robert Fisk, a journalist who has lived, worked and reported on events in the Middle East for over thirty years has published that from talking to people from Douma and a doctor who works in the hospita,l where the alleged victims of this alleged chemical attack were filmed, there was no such attack.
If he is correct, and I am not saying if he is or not, but at the very least he should be given the same credence as articles from organs of the British media such as the Daily Mail which have been posted on this thread by some as factual without question.

If he actually is correct, then your whole hypothesis on the bombing carried out by the U.S., Britain and France is null and void and falls under the same heading as the actions taken by the U.S. and Britain over the mythical weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iraq.
An action which is direct linked to the situation in Syria today.

Discodog

charlie14 wrote: »

Actually what is important in the current situation is if there actually was a chemical attack in Douma.

Robert Fisk, a journalist who has lived, worked and reported on events in the Middle East for over thirty years has published that from talking to people from Douma and a doctor who works in the hospita,l where the alleged victims of this alleged chemical attack were filmed, there was no such attack.
If he is correct, and I am not saying if he is or not, but at the very least he should be given the same credence as articles from organs of the British media such as the Daily Mail which have been posted on this thread by some as factual without question.

If he actually is correct, then your whole hypothesis on the bombing carried out by the U.S., Britain and France is null and void and falls under the same heading as the actions taken by the U.S. and Britain over the mythical weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iraq.
An action which is direct linked to the situation in Syria today.

He doesn't say that. He says that the doctor said it & warns that the doctor may not be telling the truth. It would take a very brave doctor to admit, on film, that Assad used chemical weapons.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

Actually what is important in the current situation is if there actually was a chemical attack in Douma.

Robert Fisk, a journalist who has lived, worked and reported on events in the Middle East for over thirty years has published that from talking to people from Douma and a doctor who works in the hospita,l where the alleged victims of this alleged chemical attack were filmed, there was no such attack.
If he is correct, and I am not saying if he is or not, but at the very least he should be given the same credence as articles from organs of the British media such as the Daily Mail which have been posted on this thread by some as factual without question.

If he actually is correct, then your whole hypothesis on the bombing carried out by the U.S., Britain and France is null and void and falls under the same heading as the actions taken by the U.S. and Britain over the mythical weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iraq.
An action which is direct linked to the situation in Syria today.

One thing of importance about that doctor - he wasn't in the hospital when the attack took place and the injured arrived and all the doctors who were there were off being interviewied to the OPCW, so Fisk didn't get to talk to an eye witness. In fairness though, he possibly treated those still in the hospital when he next went there.

charlie14

Discodog wrote: »

He doesn't say that. He says that the doctor said it & warns that the doctor may not be telling the truth. It would take a very brave doctor to admit, on film, that Assad used chemical weapons.

Fisk said he was allowed roam around Douma and talk to whoever he wished unhindered by Russian or Syrian security personnel.
I do not recall him saying the doctor was being filmed as Fisk talked to him, but he was up front by saying that by the name the doctor used when referring to the so called rebels may suggest he was not a supporter.
Fisk also had a few interesting things to say on the White Helmets, who the doctor claimed had started that filmed panic, throwing water on those children in the hospital.

I am not saying Fisk is correct or incorrect.
I am saying that as a journalist with a long career of reporting in the region Fisk reported what he saw and was told by the doctor and others in Douma.
While Fisk included the caveat that the doctor could possibly be lying, there are quite a few posting here quoting other media reports as gospel.

So rather than accepting these reports as gospel should they not be treated by such posters with the same suspicion as Fisk`s ?

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

One thing of importance about that doctor - he wasn't in the hospital when the attack took place and the injured arrived and all the doctors who were there were off being interviewied to the OPCW, so Fisk didn't get to talk to an eye witness. In fairness though, he possibly treated those still in the hospital when he next went there.

If the doctor is telling the truth and working in that hospital, even not working that night, as soon as he returned I doubt he would not have heard if there had been patients treated for a chemical attack or confuse it with an incident of hypoxia.

Cheerful Spring

Most of you don't understand the scope of this. This is not a conspiracy theory Syria and Iran are longstanding targets for people who control the government in America. They even had a blueprint for this action in 1998 called The Project for the New American Century, this group spoke for hardline republican conservatives in America. Their members included Cheney and Rumsfield. You are being told a lie Syria is using chemical weapons. After Libya and Iraq, I would have thought more people would have coped on to themselves by now?


This was their strategy for Foreign policy and has not changed.
United States should strengthen ties with its democratic allies, "challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values," and preserve and extend "an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles."
One of the PNAC's most influential publications was a 90-page report titled Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century.

"American homeland," the fighting and winning of "multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars," the performance of "'constabular' duties associated with shaping the security environment" in key regions, and the transformation of US forces "to exploit the 'revolution in military affairs.


They even state here they needed an 9/11 to get there way
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

Lying to the public is not a concern for people in charge I don't think people get that. Earning billions and billions of dollars are far more important to them than freedom.

Dohnjoe

According to the DM (which we should take with a pinch of salt, but anyway) it appears that Yulia's fiancee and his mother have apparently gone into hiding. Apparently the FSB have blocked interviews with them, even by Russian officials.

Dohnjoe

Yulia Skripal video statement released

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-44232096/yulia-skripal-we-are-so-lucky-to-survive