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Russian Foreign Policy Megamix

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  • 27-03-2018 4:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭


    Ireland spent centuries fighting for freedom only to follow blindly in the footsteps of other countries when it comes to the current controversy over Russia. I think that Ireland is considering expelling a Russian Diplomat out of fear of the US and the EU and not from any problems with Russia. It's a shame.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,242 ✭✭✭SCOOP 64


    I think some people will not be happy with it because its backing the UK more them anything else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Emme wrote: »
    . I still think he should not have been expelled.

    And why exactly should he not be expelled


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Mod note:

    Folks, please read the charter. This is a forum for serious debate. The explusion of a diplomat is a serious issue. Having a go at the OP is not. Link dumps are not acceptable, nor are off top race baiting comments/trolling.

    I've deleted a dozen posts and changed the name of the thread. So lets start again.

    OP, you too will need to read the charter and provide a more detailed analysis of your position if you want more meaningful debate.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Why do you believe it is blind following? If your viewpoint is that any backing up of our closest ally and partner in international matters is wrong then I would suggest that it is blind opposition that you are looking for.

    Several of the countries currently involved in diplomatic actions against Russia are far from renowned for their willingness to cross Putin and put Russian financial interests at risk. Maybe, perhaps, they are all just agreed that a country has gone too far in committing such a hostile action on neighboring European soil?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Some would like to say there's no proof that Russia did it and that its a setup etc. While I'm not one to completely disagree right now considering the information that is out there right now there are some facts that seriously reinforce the case that it's Russia who did it and why it's led to this...

    1) Putin was recorded as saying "spys will choke on their 30 silvers" several years back. (ie. he has motive)
    2) This isnt the first time because the last time it was Litvinenko who was killed with Radioactive Polonium.
    3) This was with a nerve agent that has been identified as a Soviet weapon.
    4) Serveral Russian's have been found dead in suspicious circumstances recently as well.

    On top of that we've had over the last few years other issues of Russia basically being being a dick...

    1) Cyber-attacks on various countries from Russia.
    2) Running Military Aircraft past EU Air-borders with their transponders switched off.
    3) The infamous Russian interference in the US elections by hacks and other BS
    4) Interference in Ukraine and the shooting down of a civilian airliner with a Russian SAM.
    5) Lets not forget that carryon with Georgia too that didnt exactly go over very well.

    Basically what's happened this week is basically Europe and North America saying "Right thats it enough of this shyte". The lying and constant carryon is basically destroyed their believability and left them in a position of others basically saying "Unless you can prove otherwise, your the only one with the motive to do this".

    Honestly I dont have an issue with Russian people but there's plenty of them in the Russian Government that are pissed over losing the Cold War and being Reduced to a regional power rather than a superpower. The problem is at this stage they're not doing themselve's any favours at all by continuing to act like this. Some say that the US is the one placing NATO etc in former Soviet countries but to be honest its probably because those countries are unnerved by Russia from history and just want protection from them.

    Honestly if Russia wants to be great again they REALLY need to back up and realise that they're not going to get anywhere by being the "Russian Troll Federation" and constanly pissing everyone off and scaring the shyte out of others. They also need to stop with the pointless murders because its gotten too far out of hand.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,147 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Gatling wrote: »
    And why exactly should he not be expelled

    That's not really how those things work is it? Shouldn't the question be why should he be expelled and some form of evidence to show it is the correct decision?

    This has been a cluster **** of a response from the countries who have rushed to judgement before an investigation has been concluded.

    Also not to be too Irish/English ****e about it but are British intelligence really who we should be basing foreign policy decisions on. They of the WMDs in Iraq (we promise) fame?

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    That's not really how those things work is it? Shouldn't the question be why should he be expelled and some form of evidence to show it is the correct decision?

    This has been a cluster **** of a response from the countries who have rushed to judgement before an investigation has been concluded.

    Also not to be too Irish/English ****e about it but are British intelligence really who we should be basing foreign policy decisions on. They of the WMDs in Iraq (we promise) fame?
    The official at the Russian Embassy in Ballsbridge, south Dublin, has been ordered to leave the country within a fortnight following a decision by the Department of Foreign Affairs to withdraw his diplomatic status.

    Criminal charges cannot be brought against the man because of diplomatic immunity, which protects officials attached to foreign embassies.
    The details from six genuine Irish passports were used on fake documents supplied to a Russian spy ring based in the US.

    The agents had worked undercover in the US for a decade before being caught in an FBI operation involving intercepted phone calls last June.

    Forging our passports? That's a paddlin'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,147 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Ok, so if he was doing stuff he should not have been doing why not expel him before now?

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Emme wrote: »
    Ireland spent centuries fighting for freedom only to follow blindly in the footsteps of other countries when it comes to the current controversy over Russia. I think that Ireland is considering expelling a Russian Diplomat out of fear of the US and the EU and not from any problems with Russia. It's a shame.

    Are we not allowed to agree with the actions of other countries? Are we banned from doing anything the UK does? How can we show our independence?

    As for problems with Russia, well that chemical agent was deployed to a neighbouring country. It also shows we are not blindly following the Russian narrative here to the Russians. Showing solidarity is no bad thing (not that Russia will notice us expelling someone).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭Thomas__.


    Emme wrote: »
    Ireland spent centuries fighting for freedom only to follow blindly in the footsteps of other countries when it comes to the current controversy over Russia. I think that Ireland is considering expelling a Russian Diplomat out of fear of the US and the EU and not from any problems with Russia. It's a shame.
    I think that Ireland has been put into a tricky situation and therefore is acting along with the other EU countries to follow up the decision of the whole Community of the EU. What sort of some ramifications out of that might be remains to be seen.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Ok, so if he was doing stuff he should not have been doing why not expel him before now?

    Might have something to do with this:
    Russian companies sanctioned over Ukraine linked to Ireland
    A number of major Russian companies that are subject to the sanctions introduced following Russia’s assault on Ukraine in 2014 have connections with Ireland due to the role it plays in the global funds industry.
    The fund operations remain legal despite European Union and US sanctions, although their ability to provide services to their Russia counterparts may have been hit by the introduction of sanctions.
    Some of the Russian companies concerned are very close to the Kremlin and the Russian president Vladimir Putin.
    The Irish companies tend to have few if any employees despite the enormous transactions they are involved with, and usually pay very little in tax.

    However, they contribute to the Irish economy by way of the fees paid for the provision of professional services.
    A recent study from Trinity College Dublin estimated that 125 Russian-linked companies have raised €103 billion through Irish funds operations since 2007.
    One of the major operations based here is that of Rosneft International Finance. Based in the East Point Business Park, Dublin 3, it is a subsidiary of the massive Rosneft oil company, which is itself the subject of the EU and US sanctions.

    Rosneft chief executive Igor Sechin is considered one of Mr Putin’s closest allies and is on the US sanctions list.
    Rosneft’s assets include assets that used to belong to Yukos, the since broken-up oil and gas conglomerate whose former owner, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, was at one stage Russia’s richest oligarch. He fell foul of Mr Putin’s regime and was jailed for a number of years before being released after lobbying by the German government.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/russian-companies-sanctioned-over-ukraine-linked-to-ireland-1.3440975

    Be interesting to see is this support merely window dressing. Can't see Fine Gael kicking out the Russian wealthy using Ireland to launder shuffle money around.
    It's tantamount to say, saying "Given the racist, dangerous, reckless rhetoric and policies articulated by Donald Trump, if it comes about that he becomes the President of the United States, I’m asking would we continue to facilitate US troops at Shannon airport?" and your next in line doing him a solid for business purposes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Ok, so if he was doing stuff he should not have been doing why not expel him before now?

    We're not strong enough to take unilateral action against Russia, so Russian military aircraft are able, for example, to fly into Irish controlled airspace with their transponders turned off with complete impunity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Thomas__. wrote: »
    I think that Ireland has been put into a tricky situation and therefore is acting along with the other EU countries to follow up the decision of the whole Community of the EU. What sort of some ramifications out of that might be remains to be seen.

    Austria, a member of the EU, were in the same position as Ireland and refused to expel Russian diplomats. The reason they gave was
    "Austria is a neutral country and sees itself as a bridge builder between East and West".
    As a neutral country ourselves it may have been something we would have been wise to considered ourselves for a variety of reasons with this issue. Not the least of them that the country we are backing in this is leaving the EU without much care to the economic difficulties it will cause this country while have been sending trade missions too Russia in an attempt to alleviate those economic difficulties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,147 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    The biggest laugh of the lot is surely Coveney, and Ireland by extension getting the hump now that Russia have expelled an Irish official. "No justification for this"

    Mother of God.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The biggest laugh of the lot is surely Coveney, and Ireland by extension getting the hump now that Russia have expelled an Irish official. "No justification for this"

    Mother of God.

    Especially after his explanation on expelling that Russian diplomat.

    The selection process appears to have been the use of eeny meeny miny moe


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Nitrogan


    Emme wrote: »
    Ireland spent centuries fighting for freedom only to follow blindly in the footsteps of other countries when it comes to the current controversy over Russia. I think that Ireland is considering expelling a Russian Diplomat out of fear of the US and the EU and not from any problems with Russia. It's a shame.

    In the past we'd have been so afraid of the republican #cause, no government would have the nuts to be seen on the same side with the UK on something like this.

    It's a true first expression of diplomatic free will.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,862 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Especially after his explanation on expelling that Russian diplomat.

    The selection process appears to have been the use of eeny meeny miny moe

    Except it wasn't they asked the Guards.

    Why spread waffles ? What does it get you ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,502 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Austria, a member of the EU, were in the same position as Ireland and refused to expel Russian diplomats. The reason they gave was
    "Austria is a neutral country and sees itself as a bridge builder between East and West".
    As a neutral country ourselves it may have been something we would have been wise to considered ourselves for a variety of reasons with this issue. Not the least of them that the country we are backing in this is leaving the EU without much care to the economic difficulties it will cause this country while have been sending trade missions too Russia in an attempt to alleviate those economic difficulties.




    Where does Ireland's foreign policy interests lie in all of this?

    Should we ally ourselves with a rogue country Russia?

    Should we show solidarity with the UK, showing them the benefits of working closely with their EU colleagues?

    Should we show our EU colleagues that we intend to remain at the heart of the EU project?

    Only one answer, and thankfully we made the right decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where does Ireland's foreign policy interests lie in all of this?

    Should we ally ourselves with a rogue country Russia?

    Should we show solidarity with the UK, showing them the benefits of working closely with their EU colleagues?

    Should we show our EU colleagues that we intend to remain at the heart of the EU project?

    Only one answer, and thankfully we made the right decision.

    At present we have trade missions in Russia attempting to plug the hole that is going to be left in our economy due to Britain leaving the EU.

    We can show solidarity to Britain until the cows come home, but when it comes to them leaving the EU, it will not make a blind bit of difference.
    They are determined and could care less how it effects Ireland.

    The only action the EU as a collective took over the Skripal incident was to recall their Russian ambassador.
    Any country, EU members included, that expelled Russian diplomats did so unilaterally.
    Ireland doing so had nothing to do with it being collective EU policy.
    Our only obligation to EU policy was endorsing what actually was EU policy.The re-calling of the ambassador to Russia.
    Imho as a supposedly neutral state that is what we should have done rather than expelling a diplomat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Mumha


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where does Ireland's foreign policy interests lie in all of this?

    Should we ally ourselves with a rogue country Russia?

    Should we show solidarity with the UK, showing them the benefits of working closely with their EU colleagues?

    Should we show our EU colleagues that we intend to remain at the heart of the EU project?

    Only one answer, and thankfully we made the right decision.

    Yes 100% agree. And it did reflect our own interests, as Russia is intent on screwing all western democracies.

    NBC's excellent Richard Engel has a documentary on NBC tonight as a follow-up to Putin's attempted murder of ex Russian spy and his daughter. He interviewed another ex Russian spy who said he was tipped off by someone still inside the Kremlin that he is one of EIGHT others on a Putin death list, along with the courageous Bill Browder and Christopher Steele.

    I suspect British Intel had this info too and that was what probably informed Theresa May's hard response to this attempted assassination, as a warning to Putin to back off. No doubt Leo and the other leaders would have been filled in as well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    listermint wrote: »
    Except it wasn't they asked the Guards.

    Why spread waffles ? What does it get you ?

    If you want to hear real waffle listen to Coveney`s explaination.

    They asked the army as well and between the three of them fro Coveney`s explaination of who was selected it was basically a case of eeny meeny miny moe as to who went.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 231 ✭✭derossi


    Do you think there is information you are not aware of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,502 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    charlie14 wrote: »
    At present we have trade missions in Russia attempting to plug the hole that is going to be left in our economy due to Britain leaving the EU.

    We can show solidarity to Britain until the cows come home, but when it comes to them leaving the EU, it will not make a blind bit of difference.
    They are determined and could care less how it effects Ireland.

    The only action the EU as a collective took over the Skripal incident was to recall their Russian ambassador.
    Any country, EU members included, that expelled Russian diplomats did so unilaterally.
    Ireland doing so had nothing to do with it being collective EU policy.
    Our only obligation to EU policy was endorsing what actually was EU policy.The re-calling of the ambassador to Russia.
    Imho as a supposedly neutral state that is what we should have done rather than expelling a diplomat.

    If you think trade with Russia is more important than attempting to persuade the UK to reverse Brexit or working with the EU to get the best Brexit for Ireland, then you are simply nuts.

    The only sane option for Ireland was to expel a Russian diplomat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Nitrogan


    Really there'll be a lot more known Russian intelligence agents the US and UK would like Ireland to expel, but we're apologetically removing one because everyone else is.

    It's a lame response, it looks weak and encourages Russia to use Ireland as a back door to the UK. When the UK and US has to put their resources on monitoring Russian agents in Ireland when we aren't willing or able then inevitably they'll be operating in Ireland.

    No one wants that, yet some political groups entice it by trying to set Ireland up as a neutral/staging post for both sides.

    Ireland should be making a point by at least warning against this and threatening more spy expulsions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    blanch152 wrote: »
    If you think trade with Russia is more important than attempting to persuade the UK to reverse Brexit or working with the EU to get the best Brexit for Ireland, then you are simply nuts.

    The only sane option for Ireland was to expel a Russian diplomat.

    If you think the UK is simply going to just reverse Brexit then you are sadly mistaken I`m afraid.
    The best possible outcome for Ireland on Brexit was fudged in December by Ireland allowing the negotiations to move to Phase 2 when we actually had the publicly stated backing of the EU that talks would not progress until we were fully satisfied on the border issue.
    The friction-less border idea has been dismissed by the EU even prior to December as "magic thinking" and this backstop idea of no border either North/South or East/West is a nonsense considering the EU rules and regulations governing the Single Market and Customs Union

    The EU do not, nor can they, legally rule on sovereignty.
    If the UK insists on their sovereignty over the 6 counties then there is no options but a border.
    In fact Tony Conneely RTE`s Europe editor of news and current affairs has highlighted that from the outset on the border issue, EU negotiators have looked at the GFA as the only area where they have any involvement in the border issue.

    After the December fudge, the can of the border has been being kicked down the road towards a final draft agreement, where if all other issues are settled between Britain and the EU other than the border, then Ireland has two options.
    Accept an external EU border and all it entails, or veto the final draft which would result in a hard Brexit which our EU partners would not be pleased with I imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Nitrogan


    charlie14 wrote: »
    If you think the UK is simply going to just reverse Brexit then you are sadly mistaken I`m afraid.
    The best possible outcome for Ireland on Brexit was fudged in December by Ireland allowing the negotiations to move to Phase 2 when we actually had the publicly stated backing of the EU that talks would not progress until we were fully satisfied on the border issue.
    The friction-less border idea has been dismissed by the EU even prior to December as "magic thinking" and this backstop idea of no border either North/South or East/West is a nonsense considering the EU rules and regulations governing the Single Market and Customs Union

    The EU do not, nor can they, legally rule on sovereignty.
    If the UK insists on their sovereignty over the 6 counties then there is no options but a border.
    In fact Tony Conneely RTE`s Europe editor of news and current affairs has highlighted that from the outset on the border issue, EU negotiators have looked at the GFA as the only area where they have any involvement in the border issue.

    After the December fudge, the can of the border has been being kicked down the road towards a final draft agreement, where if all other issues are settled between Britain and the EU other than the border, then Ireland has two options.
    Accept an external EU border and all it entails, or veto the final draft which would result in a hard Brexit which our EU partners would not be pleased with I imagine.

    I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with Russia other than the autonomy of small countries like Ireland to choose to act as part of a collective with real impact on an aggressive threat like modern Putinist Russia.

    If that's what was meant.:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,029 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Nitrogan wrote: »
    I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with Russia other than the autonomy of small countries like Ireland to choose to act as part of a collective with real impact on an aggressive threat like modern Putinist Russia.

    If that's what was meant.:confused:

    It was meant as whatever action we, or the rest of the EU member states, take in solidarity towards Britain as regards Russia, it will not make a blind bit of difference to Britain in regards to Brexit which the poster seems to believe it will.
    You have only to look at Britain`s Foreign Secretary and his White Cliffs of Dover comments barely a day after he acknowledged the solidarity they had shown.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Nitrogan wrote: »
    In the past we'd have been so afraid of the republican #cause, no government would have the nuts to be seen on the same side with the UK on something like this.

    It's a true first expression of diplomatic free will.

    Have you heard of the UN?

    I just wonder what the point of the Russian expulsion was. We still have Russian financial bodies with connections to Putin operating within Ireland. Surely we'd show more moral fiber by expelling all Israeli diplomats; they forged Irish passports and are currently murdering Palestinians?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Mumha


    Have you heard of the UN?

    I just wonder what the point of the Russian expulsion was. We still have Russian financial bodies with connections to Putin operating within Ireland. Surely we'd show more moral fiber by expelling all Israeli diplomats; they forged Irish passports and are currently murdering Palestinians?

    Well we certainly need to end those Russian financial bodies in Ireland. If/When the UK goes ahead with Brexit, Ireland will be of even more interest to the Russians and their dirty money. No good will come of having further financial interactions with them.


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Hi everyone,
    Please don't forget the charter, especially:
    Please remember that we are not a blog, a news feed nor an announcement forum - if you are not willing to discuss what you post, then please don't post it.

    and
    When posting or linking to a video please provide a summary of the content as not everybody has access to video sites or the time to view them.


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