Star Trek Discovery ***Season 2*** [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

It doesn't, but in functional, narrative terms the Prophets absolutely were gods; albeit through handwaving pseudo-science that allowed the writers to basically invent gods without breaking the canon of the atheistic universe Trek operates as.

I agree that from the Bajoran perspective and the storyline of DS9 they were gods. But outside of that I don't like that everyone was ok with them acting like gods when all they were was more advanced aliens.

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

What is a god? Timeless, all seeing, all knowing, existing outside of time, existing on a 'higher' plane, keeping a watchful gaze on a less advanced people...that'd check the box for most definitions of a 'god'.

That reminds me of this exchange in Stargate starting at around 1:00 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRITzdlHJXA

Inviere wrote: »

By not allowing it, they'd be interfering too though, no? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well since they could see all points in time they would have known what sending out the orbs would do so not sending out the orbs would have been enough.

Inviere wrote: »

For me, there's a slight difference between a human interacting with another humanoid, and a non corporeal being outside of linear time interacting with a human. I don't think you can arguably compare or contrast the two situations.

It's just a matter of scale.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

That reminds me of this exchange in Stargate starting at around 1:00 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRITzdlHJXA

The Ori are far more akin to the Pah Wraiths, than the Prophets. They desire worship, they desire power. My ultimate point being, if you're going to negate the existence of a god by invoking the argument that they're simply more advanced, it's but a short jaunt to the conclusion that there are no such things as gods (one which I'd agree with). That said, it brings us back to asking to define what being a god means? Once again, for the Bajorans, the Prophets were literally, and figuratively, real gods.

Well since they could see all points in time they would have known what sending out the orbs would do so not sending out the orbs would have been enough.

Thereby ultimately destroying Bajor...t'would not be very nice of them. This supports the argument that they were very much real gods for the Bajorans.

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

The Ori are far more akin to the Pah Wraiths, than the Prophets. They desire worship, they desire power. My ultimate point being, if you're going to negate the existence of a god by invoking the argument that they're simply more advanced, it's but a short jaunt to the conclusion that there are no such things as gods (one which I'd agree with). That said, it brings us back to asking to define what being a god means? Once again, for the Bajorans, the Prophets were literally, and figuratively, real gods.

I think Adria's definition of a god in the video is right, power and being worshiped, that's it. But allowing yourself to be worshiped as a god says a lot more about you than it does the worshipers. You can help out without letting those you help worship you, back to Who Watches the Watchers. The Prophets don't demand it but they do allow it which is ultimately a distinction without a difference.

Inviere wrote: »

Thereby ultimately destroying Bajor...t'would not be very nice of them. This supports the argument that they were very much real gods for the Bajorans.

How? Because they also turned Bajor into a maximum security prison for their undesirables?

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

You can help out without letting those you help worship you, back to Who Watches the Watchers. The Prophets don't demand it but they do allow it which is ultimately a distinction without a difference.

"Tradition says the orbs were sent by the Prophets to teach us. What we have learned has shaped our theology." - Kai Opaka

It's difficult to understand their motives, but the Prophets have been a benefactor to Bajor for tens of thousands of years it would seem. Didn't the Prophets describe themselves of being 'of Bajor'? Maybe there's a far closer relationship between the Prophets and Bajorans than we know about?

How? Because they also turned Bajor into a maximum security prison for their undesirables?

Without the Orbs, there'd be no Emissary, no Emissary means the above picture never happened, and without that picture, Bajor would almost certainly have been lost (along with the Alpha Quadrant itself).

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

"Tradition says the orbs were sent by the Prophets to teach us. What we have learned has shaped our theology." - Kai Opaka

It's difficult to understand their motives, but the Prophets have been a benefactor to Bajor for tens of thousands of years it would seem. Didn't the Prophets describe themselves of being 'of Bajor'? Maybe there's a far closer relationship between the Prophets and Bajorans than we know about?

I think I've figured it out. Theology is confusing and often internally inconsistent.

The most cynical explanation is the Prophets engineered everything so Sisko could defeat the Pah Wraiths and the Bajorans were just pawns. Which is kind of horrifying if you think about the Occupation and the D'jarra.

Inviere wrote: »

Without the Orbs, there'd be no Emissary, no Emissary means the above picture never happened, and without that picture, Bajor would almost certainly have been lost (along with the Alpha Quadrant itself).

No Emissary means no one to discover the wormhole so no Dominion invasion fleet.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

The most cynical explanation is the Prophets engineered everything so Sisko could defeat the Pah Wraiths and the Bajorans were just pawns. Which is kind of horrifying if you think about the Occupation and the D'jarra.

Most cynical indeed, reminds me of what another poster here would come up with. Unlikely however, as the Pah Wraiths would have remained in the Fire Caves had it not been for the events surrounding the Emissary. Personally I feel the Bajorans are on some path to 'ascension', to once again reference Stargate...and what we seen during the events of DS9 are merely one chapter in a very long and as of yet, unwritten book.

No Emissary means no one to discover the wormhole so no Dominion invasion fleet.

Sisko wasn't the first, there was Kai Taluno & Akorem Laan before him. It's likely someone else would have found it at some stage given the clues were all there.

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

Most cynical indeed, reminds me of what another poster here would come up with. Unlikely however, as the Pah Wraiths would have remained in the Fire Caves had it not been for the events surrounding the Emissary.

At least one Pah Wraith escaped, seemingly on its own. Yes it was after Sisko discovered the wormhole so that could have been a contributing factor but if the Pah Wraiths were locked up for eternity why create the Sisko to kill them? Spite?

Inviere wrote: »

Sisko wasn't the first, there was Kai Taluno & Akorem Laan before him. It's likely someone else would have found it at some stage given the clues were all there.

Neither of them reported where the wormhole was and enabled all that traffic to head out into the Gamma Quadrant so I think my point stands. It's likely the clues were put there so Sisko would find it. Had there been no Sisko would they have left the clues?

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

but if the Pah Wraiths were locked up for eternity why create the Sisko to kill them? Spite?

It was you who suggested that's why he was created, not me. Personally, I don't agree. Also, everything we've seen of the Prophets suggests they're benign, and not driven by malevolence.

Had there been no Sisko would they have left the clues?

The clues were there since before Sisko found them...arguably it was Jadzia who pieced it together.

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

It was you who suggested that's why he was created, not me. Personally, I don't agree. Also, everything we've seen of the Prophets suggests they're benign, and not driven by malevolence.

You suggested the Pah Wraiths couldn't ever escape the Fire Caverns without Sisko existing. So the omniprescient beings created Sisko in order to allow the Pah Wraiths to escape so he could then kill them.

Inviere wrote: »

The clues were there since before Sisko found them...arguably it was Jadzia who pieced it together.

They exist at /observe all points in time so they could easily know what clues to put where and when so Sisko/Dax would ultimately be the one to figure it out.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

You suggested the Pah Wraiths couldn't ever escape the Fire Caverns without Sisko existing. So the omniprescient beings created Sisko in order to allow the Pah Wraiths to escape so he could then kill them.

They exist at /observe all points in time so they could easily know what clues to put where and when so Sisko/Dax would ultimately be the one to figure it out.

This could go on all day, so I'll spare everyone else having to read it.

Goodshape

You two should check out this new series, 'Discovery'.

I hear there's a second season on the way! Maybe someone should start a thread about it...

BrookieD

What he said

Inviere

...and here I was just about to kick it all off again So yeah, em, Discovery...loved Season 1, looking forward to Season 2!

Optimus Prime

Inviere wrote: »

This could go on all day, so I'll spare everyone else having to read it.

It’s the chicken and the egg Will, the chicken and the egg !

garbo speaks

I thought Discovery season 1 was ok up to the break. After it came back in January, I thought the whole mirror universe thing went on way too long (I've never had any interest in the mirror universe episodes-in my opinion they were just something the writers did to have fun writing 'evil' versions of the characters). As the season neared the end, its like they realized they had to quickly and awkwardly wrap up the Klingon war and the whole thing about making the mirror Georgiou captain the mission to Quo'Nos was nonsense. Finally, to add insult to injury, what we all knew was coming from day one happened right at the end and earlier in the series than I could have imagined. Bringing the Enterprise and Pike into the show stinks of desperation at such an early stage in the series. Discovery should be trying to find its feet as its show and settle down after the war was over and with Lorca gone, but instead we have the writers going to give us probably a six-episode arc with Burnham and Spock playing family with Sarek, and another new take on Pike's getting paralyzed. So much for boldly going...

Marje

Captain Christopher Pike of the U.S.S. Enterprise reporting for duty.

http://www.startrek.com/article/meet-discoverys-captain-pike

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Marje

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Don't know what happened there - when I click on it myself when I try to link it again, it also brings me to the shop as well.

Got link from twitter
https://twitter.com/StarTrek/status/983389513127952384

Different link http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/star-trek-discovery-season-2-captain-pike-anson-mount-1202743293/

GottaGetGatt

Nice. He was good in Hell on Wheels.

pixelburp

Conversely I heard he was pretty poor in The Inhumans, but given that seemed to be an across-the-board failure, his was probably not the only misstep.

I suppose the obvious follow up question to the announcement of course is ... will they also cast Spock? I had wondered if Discovery might play the card whereby Pike/Spock were conveniently off-ship during the Enterprise cameo, so maybe to save a complete canon meltdown Spock will be the one holidaying on Risa.

I'm also wondering if the famous 'Number One' will appear as well; the unnamed second in command from the very original pilot, 'The Cage' that originally featuring Pike.

AMKC

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

Nice. He was good in Hell on Wheels.

Is Colm Meaney? About time Trek had an Irish Captain.

Do spoiler if you post who it is as I do not want to know unless its Colm Meaney.

GottaGetGatt

AMKC wrote: »

Is Colm Meaney? About time Trek had an Irish Captain.

Do spoiler if you post who it is as I do not want to know unless its Colm Meaney.

No the lad in the picture Anson Mount.

AMKC

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

No the lad in the picture Anson Mount.

Awe that's a pity. Who was he in Hell On Wheels. Been a while since I seen it. never finished it either. Good show do if a bit dull at times.

GottaGetGatt

AMKC wrote: »

Awe that's a pity. Who was he in Hell On Wheels. Been a while since I seen it. never finished it either. Good show do if a bit dull at times.

He played the main Character.He barely recognisable without the long hair and beard.Yeah same, I never finished the last season.

garbo speaks

I always thought Pike from TOS looked like a young Ray Liotta.

GSPfan

What does the timeline say about Robert April at the time of Discovery season 2? Pike is Enterprises Captain but Robert April was there before him and went somewhere right?

Marje

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/tig-notaro-star-trek-discovery-1202750016/

Tig Notaro is joining “Star Trek: Discovery” for its second season.

The comedian will guest-star as Chief Engineer Denise Reno of the U.S.S. Hiawatha. The number of episodes she will appear in is not known.

AMKC

GSPfan wrote: »

What does the timeline say about Robert April at the time of Discovery season 2? Pike is Enterprises Captain but Robert April was there before him and went somewhere right?

Well he is either Captain of another ship or Starbase although after being Captain of the Enterprise and the flagship of the fleet I think unless he hated the job there is not really any other ship you would want and a Starbase might be boring, been promoted to Admiral or even Ambassador, retired or dead.

pixelburp

So Jonathan Frakes is back with Discovery, and has revealed some details about the second episode of Season 2. He mentioned that

Spock is in his episode, albeit in younger form during flashback scenes. The chitchat doesn't confirm that a contemporary version will appear, only that a boy / teen version turns up.