So Patrick street is bus only from Thursday 9th August

Padraig Mor

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's what I see as the biggest drawback of the car ban. Without big increases in the public transport effort, people will flat out avoid the city.

Here's another anecdote: over the jazz weekend, I was passed-by at a bus stop. The bus was 30 mins late and full, even though we were only two stops from the start of the line. 30 minutes wait for the next bus. So what did everyone at the stop do: private cars. There needs to be carrot and stick, otherwise the city will just send people to the out-of-city retail parks.

Even though I suspect we come from opposite sides of the argument, we'll agree on that. Bus Eireann's services in Cork are a disgrace. This cannot be fixed by painting a few lines on a road and frustrating the largest number of road users. You mention carrot and stick. The problem at the moment is that it's all stick - 'bad car driver, get off the road!'. Use the carrot instead: and the carrot is fixing Bus Eireann so that they provide a reliable service - but that's hard, so instead we're left with easy, cheap, superficial measures which will never achieve their stated aims while Bus Eireann is in thrall to unions protecting their lazy, customer-hating drivers. Providing a reliable service is the number one thing that can be done to get people out of their cars - if the public transport service is good, and meets your needs, why would you drive?

I've mentioned my visually impaired friend previously, who travels between Cobh and UCC by train and city bus. He has finally bowed to the inevitable - after being left on College Road for an hour (supposedly a 15 minute service) with no bus showing one too many times, he has given up on Bus Eireann and now walks between UCC and the train station, despite the obvious difficulty in doing so for him. I had the same experience earlier this year when injury forced me onto public transport for a couple of months - it was just easier to walk to town than wait for the sodding bus. Fix Bus Eireann first, then worry about car bans.

macraignil

beer enigma wrote: »

Not sure I agree, even with the car ban I was still a weekly visitor to Patrick Street. The only thing that has stopped me going is the car park price increase.

I find Park and ride just hassle with three teens in tow and I never used Q Park because of the cost. Paul Street is hassle to get in and out of so Merchants Quay was my only destination. €3 / hour is just too much and I'm discovering Wilton and Midleton more so as a result. Its personal choice

If the increase in the parking charge at Merchent's quay shopping centre was due to the increase in demand after the car ban was introduced I think avoiding it could be viewed as an indirect consequence of the car ban and as you say you are using some of the out of city centre shopping centres as a result. Not much point arguing about it anyway as the only people counting the cost will be the traders near Patrick street and no one on this thread will believe any "anecdotal" evidence they produce.

I have done shopping near Patrick street in the past but with the increased price of public transport and its unreliability and the increased inaccessibility to cars I can't see myself choosing this option in the future.

hans aus dtschl

macraignil wrote: »

If the increase in the parking charge at Merchent's quay shopping centre was due to the increase in demand after the car ban was introduced I think avoiding it could be viewed as an indirect consequence of the car ban and as you say you are using some of the out of city centre shopping centres as a result. Not much point arguing about it anyway as the only people counting the cost will be the traders near Patrick street and no one on this thread will believe any "anecdotal" evidence they produce.

I have done shopping near Patrick street in the past but with the increased price of public transport and its unreliability and the increased inaccessibility to cars I can't see myself choosing this option in the future.

Conversely, I've been using public transport more this year than any time in the last 10 years to go to town, partly because of the ban (and I don't want the hassle of being stuck in traffic looking for parking) so you will have the other side of it too, where the ban is having some of its desired effect and encouraging modal shift.
If you think that I'm now out of your way on your drive to the city, you can see how that would be a small positive.

timmyjimmy

In all fairness, grocery shopping in the city centre is pretty crap. Tesco is stuck in a time warp, Supervalu has turned into a giant Centra and that downstairs Dunnes has a terrible layout.
There's far better options elsewhere in the city with parking outside and far more choice in the shops. Shopping in the centre is just handy for picking up a few bits. Couldn't imagine why anybody would want to do a weeks groceries in the city centre when there's far better/easier options.

EnzoScifo

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's the same thing with "not believing traders accounts". I can believe John Grace's takings are down and that it coincides with the car ban. But I can also believe that it can coincide with an awful lot of other things and it doesn't prove correlation.

John Grace might be selling a product that's declining in popularity, might be suffering from increased competition, his customers might consist entirely of people driving on Patrick's Street, or may be dissuaded from visiting his shop because of ancillary knock-on effects of the ban. Or (just to include it) he could be suffering from a confirmation bias himself. How do you sift between all of these possibilities? Probably only by surveying the customers, and even that's not ideal because people are very susceptible to biases.

John Grace's have overlooked something that would have far more impact on their business than the bus lane whether due to bias or not.

One entire side of Cook Street is currently empty due to the long delayed Penneys revamp and with Specsavers gone, footfall has been decimated. There is no anchor store to drive people to cook Street.

I'd be more focused on pressuring pennys to do something with the empty premises if I was a business owner.

the beer revolu

EnzoScifo wrote: »

John Grace's have overlooked something that would have far more impact on their business than the bus lane whether due to bias or not.

One entire side of Cook Street is currently empty due to the long delayed Penneys revamp and with Specsavers gone, footfall has been decimated. There is no anchor store to drive people to cook Street.

I'd be more focused on pressuring pennys to do something with the empty premises if I was a business owner.

OH, before the ban JG was very vocal about this issue but then the car ban came about and the reason for his declining business changed.

ofcork

A poster said there is no private car parking on Patrick st there is some spaces by tw murray and a couple outside golden discs and Waterstones.

flexcon

ofcork wrote: »

A poster said there is no private car parking on Patrick st there is some spaces by tw murray and a couple outside golden discs and Waterstones.

I'll be driving by there this evening at 5pm.

I'll check out that area. AFAIK those parking signs are now removed and is loading bay until the closure times are shown. Bearing in mind I didn't walk the entire street to verify each zone was now updated, but the one outside Dunnes and outside Abrakbabra have been

namloc1980

flexcon wrote: »

I'll be driving by there this evening at 5pm.

Breaking the road traffic laws is fecking hilarious isn't it! Are there other road traffic laws you ignore also? Speeding? Breaking red lights maybe?

mean gene

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Even though I suspect we come from opposite sides of the argument, we'll agree on that. Bus Eireann's services in Cork are a disgrace. This cannot be fixed by painting a few lines on a road and frustrating the largest number of road users. You mention carrot and stick. The problem at the moment is that it's all stick - 'bad car driver, get off the road!'. Use the carrot instead: and the carrot is fixing Bus Eireann so that they provide a reliable service - but that's hard, so instead we're left with easy, cheap, superficial measures which will never achieve their stated aims while Bus Eireann is in thrall to unions protecting their lazy, customer-hating drivers. Providing a reliable service is the number one thing that can be done to get people out of their cars - if the public transport service is good, and meets your needs, why would you drive?

I've mentioned my visually impaired friend previously, who travels between Cobh and UCC by train and city bus. He has finally bowed to the inevitable - after being left on College Road for an hour (supposedly a 15 minute service) with no bus showing one too many times, he has given up on Bus Eireann and now walks between UCC and the train station, despite the obvious difficulty in doing so for him. I had the same experience earlier this year when injury forced me onto public transport for a couple of months - it was just easier to walk to town than wait for the sodding bus. Fix Bus Eireann first, then worry about car bans.

Have to agree with this bus waiting times in the city suburbs are a disgrace they dont go by a timetable and your left standing there in the p1ssing rain hoping one turns up

flexcon

namloc1980 wrote: »

Breaking the road traffic laws is fecking hilarious isn't it! Are there other road traffic laws you ignore also? Speeding? Breaking red lights maybe?

Whoops! My sarcasm was on point.

I'm a promoter of the Ban. I don't drive down Patrick street.

richiepurgas

The Irish solution ?

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/New-traders-group-to-form-over-concerns-about-city-centre-trade-6948f831-14ad-46e0-8f68-19a0ac2cd75a-ds

j8wk2feszrnpao

richiepurgas wrote: »

The Irish solution ?

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/New-traders-group-to-form-over-concerns-about-city-centre-trade-6948f831-14ad-46e0-8f68-19a0ac2cd75a-ds

What’s Irish about it?
Representative groups banding/ganging together for their own agendas is somehow Irish?

rf1980

100% support the car ban - in fact there should be no free parking whatsoever in the city center. Unreal how short sighted some of these businesses are.

j8wk2feszrnpao

rf1980 wrote: »

100% support the car ban - in fact there should be no free parking whatsoever in the city center. Unreal how short sighted some of these businesses are.

Where’s the current free parking?

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

What’s Irish about it?
Representative groups banding/ganging together for their own agendas is somehow Irish?

The Irish part is probably a faction is splitting from the CBA or at least on this issue. Seems to me some traders want to cling on to an old view of retail - close for lunch (you still see that), shut up shop at 5.30 and the ability for Jimmy to pull up outside the front door for his messages. Cork is moving on, there are 8,000 new office spaces coming on stream in the city in the next few years and public transport will have to be prioritised (BusConnects etc). Huge opportunity for traders there but they'll continue to resist it seems.

Frostybrew

So is the faction in favour of the ban or against? The CBA originally came out against the ban, but then supported it after consultation with City Hall. Are the CBA now against the ban again, and the faction are in favour; or are they still supporting it and the faction are rebelling. Lot's of mixed messages coming out in the press over the last two weeks from various parties. This could get confusing.

Mardyke

It seems to me the most vocal are businesses that are probably not the most savvy. Maybe have someone that is not very clever running the show.

John Graces, Dukes Cafe, Tung Sing, some car wash place on Grand Parade.... all whining lately.... probably thinking this is a handy distraction from their poor business model or badly run operation.

The city need to just close Patrick St full stop.

snotboogie

Mardyke wrote: »

It seems to me the most vocal are businesses that are probably not the most savvy. Maybe have someone that is not very clever running the show.

John Graces, Dukes Cafe, Tung Sing, some car wash place on Grand Parade.... all whining lately.... probably thinking this is a handy distraction from their poor business model or badly run operation.

The city need to just close Patrick St full stop.

Is John Grace the biggest moaner in Cork City? He seems to have his say in absolutely everything. I believe he formally objected to the Victoria Hotel development, protested that Penny’s wasn’t being developed and has been by far the most vocal critic of the car ban. Maybe he is far more savvy than we are giving him credit for and he knows that the Echo will literally print anything that will give them clicks. He seems to be getting his name in the paper for free every week.

hans aus dtschl

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

No parking rules on Sunday: is that true? I'll take it back if so.

You can tell that I didn't look very hard at the signage.

One street parking is always free on sundays and bank holidays and loading bays don’t apply either.

richiepurgas

munstermagic11 wrote: »

What’s Irish about it?
Representative groups banding/ganging together for their own agendas is somehow Irish?

It was Brendan Behan who said that the first thing on the agenda of any Irish organisation is the split.

Mardyke

Eoin English seems to be rounding up some more whiners.

Susan Ryan hair salon in the paper tomorrow blowing on about the car ban (not sure why a business on South Main St would be impacted!) and while she's at it having a pop off cyclists.

And the clown from Idaho comes onto Twitter supporting her.

What a bunch.

macraignil

Heard a Patrick street trader on Newstalk this morning as well with some anecdote about a twenty percent drop in sales since the car ban has been introduced(although he quite clearly said it was fact and not an anecdote). I think he was from Murphy's mens' ware. Asking for the Patrick street car ban to be abandoned until after the critical Christmas sales period as this was so vital to businesses effected by the car ban. He explained he reckoned people who would travel a distance to the city were now much more likely to stay doing their shopping somewhere on the outskirts of the city and the council had somehow failed to get out the message that the city centre was still open to business. Sounded well spoken and reasonable to me but will probably get labeled as another moaner by the anti car posters.

grogi

macraignil wrote: »

Heard a Patrick street trader on Newstalk this morning as well with some anecdote about a twenty percent drop in sales since the car ban has been introduced(although he quite clearly said it was fact and not an anecdote). I think he was from Murphy's mens' ware. Asking for the Patrick street car ban to be abandoned until after the critical Christmas sales period as this was so vital to businesses effected by the car ban. He explained he reckoned people who would travel a distance to the city were now much more likely to stay doing their shopping somewhere on the outskirts of the city and the council had somehow failed to get out the message that the city centre was still open to business. Sounded well spoken and reasonable to me but will probably get labeled as another moaner by the anti car posters.

Well - while talking how bad it is he missed an opportunity to ensure the public that the city center is in business.

It is ONE STREET, why is it so crucial?

namloc1980

macraignil wrote: »

Heard a Patrick street trader on Newstalk this morning as well with some anecdote about a twenty percent drop in sales since the car ban has been introduced(although he quite clearly said it was fact and not an anecdote). I think he was from Murphy's mens' ware. Asking for the Patrick street car ban to be abandoned until after the critical Christmas sales period as this was so vital to businesses effected by the car ban. He explained he reckoned people who would travel a distance to the city were now much more likely to stay doing their shopping somewhere on the outskirts of the city and the council had somehow failed to get out the message that the city centre was still open to business. Sounded well spoken and reasonable to me but will probably get labeled as another moaner by the anti car posters.

The traders are the only group who are continuously beating the "city is closed for business" drum. Nobody else.

ofcork

That's Tom Murphy he was on with Neil during the week.

macraignil

grogi wrote: »

Well - while talking how bad it is he missed an opportunity to ensure the public that the city center is in business.

It is ONE STREET, why is it so crucial?

For many people from a distance from the city it could be the one street they really know well.

Always found it a convenient route to get through the city myself so guessing others might have found it the same. Always found congestion on other routes worse and took more time to travel.

It probably does not take much to tip the balance to convince many people to just use one of the department stores on the outskirts and steer clear of city centre congestion altogether.

The number of streets in the centre island of Cork in between the north and south channel are very limited so cutting off one to cars to make a bus lane is currently going to have too much of a negative impact on traffic elsewhere in my opinion. This congestion also effects buses and contributes to them being very unreliable in Cork. Also can't see why almost all the bus routes need to go through Patrick street anyway.

Maybe if the North ring road was completed it could be more practical as a bigger percentage of cars could just avoid the city centre altogether as apparently many are just trying to get from one side of the city to the other.

Padraig Mor

namloc1980 wrote: »

Cork is moving on,...... public transport will have to be prioritised (BusConnects etc). Huge opportunity for traders there but they'll continue to resist it seems.

Yet again we have posters flogging their tired anti car agenda and ignoring the elephant in the room - that Bus Eireann are not fit for purpose. Doesn't matter how much you prioritise the bus service - it's still gonna be hopeless with that lot at the helm!

namloc1980

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Yet again we have posters flogging their tired anti car agenda and ignoring the elephant in the room - that Bus Eireann are not fit for purpose. Doesn't matter how much you prioritise the bus service - it's still gonna be hopeless with that lot at the helm!

No the reality is that 8,000 new office workers will be accessing the city in the next few years. If they all have to get in cars then it'll truly be gridlock. There is absolutely nothing stopping another company tendering for the Cork city PSO routes when they are due for renewal next year.

Frostybrew

namloc1980 wrote: »

The traders are the only group who are continuously beating the "city is closed for business" drum. Nobody else.

Nail on the head. "Car ban this", "Car ban that". They've frightened their own customers away.

A bus lane for 3 1/2 hours a day is what it is. That message seems to have gotten lost.