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Careless cyclists.

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13567…13

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    #62
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,967 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    our road death figures are going down hugely....
    Yes and it is to be welcomed but cycling fatalities have doubled last year.


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    #63
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,509 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    Yes and it is to be welcomed but cycling fatalities have doubled last year.

    maybe a few of the above might reduce that. it cant make it any worse


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    #64
    swarlb
    Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭swarlb


    Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »
    OK why should cyclists not be subject to speed restrictions? It was all fine when cyclists meant steel, sit-up-and-beg machines, but now cycling speeds are much, much higher.

    We're told that speed kills. Does that not apply to cyclists? Do safe stopping distances not apply either?

    In the Nissan Classic race back in the 80's, Sean Kelly averaged 52kph between Carrick and Clonmel. This is about 32mph. This was considered one of the fastest times of the period. I doubt very much if your average (or even above average cyclist) expends as much energy on the daily commute.


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    #65
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Interesting


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    #66
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Middle Man wrote: »
    I must also be said that a cyclist travelling at any speed of 30kph or higher tend to be far less observant than other road users.

    Really? That makes no sense at all. When I cycle, the faster I cycle, the more aware and observant I become. I know at faster speeds I'm at more risk if something goes wrong.


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    #67
    Phil.x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    Is there a school of motoring where you learn the laws of the road when cycling and "driving" a go-cart.

    I done one in school


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    #68
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Do you think people break the rules because they don't know the rules or they don't care about them?

    Also the rules don't tell you how cycle safely. For that you need some one with experience of cycling...


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    #69
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    since the last occurrence of a careless cyclist being responsible for the death of another person in this country, over 4,500 people have died on our roads. yes, there are careless cyclists; but it's such a marginal case in terms of harm caused that the argument is damaging to road safety.
    in that continued dangerisation of cycling is actually helping to keep people in their cars and ensuring the roads are more dangerous than they could be.


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    #70
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,509 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    since the last occurrence of a careless cyclist being responsible for the death of another person in this country, over 4,500 people have died on our roads. yes, there are careless cyclists; but it's such a marginal case in terms of harm caused that the argument is damaging to road safety.
    in that continued dangerisation of cycling is actually helping to keep people in their cars and ensuring the roads are more dangerous than they could be.

    whats the figures when you include the death of the cyclist being at least some way responsible for their own death


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    #71
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    hard to say; i don't think reliable figures are kept for this.


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    #72
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    whats the figures when you include the death of the cyclist being at least some way responsible for their own death

    We generally don't legislate to prevent people from harming themselves in their own time. Otherwise we'd be prosecuting people coming back from Everest expeditions. There are a very few exceptions, e.g. driver seatbelts and motorcycle helmets. I'm not sure which idiot decided those were worth breaking the societal norm, I'd be in favour of scrapping those - now we have daft proposals for mandatory hi vis for pedestrians. Slippery slope.


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    #73
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Deedsie wrote: »
    What's the problem with seat belts? I was in a pretty bad crash once, the seatbelt probably saved my life.
    You were driving?

    I've just described the problem in the post you are quoting.


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    #74
    Optimalprimerib
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    Effects wrote: »
    Really? That makes no sense at all. When I cycle, the faster I cycle, the more aware and observant I become. I know at faster speeds I'm at more risk if something goes wrong.

    An oul wan in the local used to say something similar when she was driving home drunk. "I pay more attention with a few on me because I know there is a bigger risk".

    I know it's not exactly the same but....


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    #75
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Madilyn Slow Cupcake wrote: »
    I was driving up Gardiner St last week and beeped a cyclist who broke a light and turned the corner to my left. He was going in my direction after the turn.

    He carried on oblivious and another cyclist shouted at me "was I serious"....he continued up and broke a few lights too:confused: It was just a pity I was stuck in traffic and couldnt catch up to him.
    1. Had you managed to catch up to him what would you have done?
    2. Do you pursue motorists that break a red light?


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    #76
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Why, might I ask are cyclists on roundabouts considered such a huge problem, enough to start a lot of nonsense here, based on a the anecdotal evidence from the OP of 2 cyclists?

    I see dozens of cars go through amber lights (the one your actually supposed to stop on) every day and a little less through red.

    I see dozens of cars using the wrong lane and doing last second changes constantly.

    I'm constantly seeing cars speed too, or people opening doors in traffic, or blocking footpaths.

    I see cyclists in paths and going through lights too, and generally being careless everyday too. However the degree of danger when doing these in a car is far far higher, that's why there are more stringent requirements for the operation of motor vehicles and there needs to be greater enforcement as we all know too


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    #77
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Why, might I as, are cyclists on roundabouts considered such a huge problem, enough to start a lot of nonsense here, based on a the anecdotal evidence from the OP of 2 cyclists?

    The OP is quite clear:

    "At a time when there is a lot of roads signs going up to warn us about giving cyclists enough space when we are over taking them I wonder has anyone thought about putting a few signs to ask cyclists to be careful."

    Which can be interpreted either as a caring and thoughtful response born of an awakening consciousness of cyclist safety....or brutal whataboutery. :pac:


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    #78
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    He moved on to to speed limits for cyclists. So I think we can assume we moved on from a helpful sign.


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    #79
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Lots of people don't know how to use roundabouts and even if they did lots of them are designed badly.

    They should have a TV campaign explaining them to people especially useful for tourists to Ireland. As the rules are not the same in all countries.


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    #80
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    beauf wrote: »
    He moved on to to speed limits for cyclists. So I think we can assume we moved on from a helpful sign.

    Well the quick answer to that is: "the speed limit for cyclists is governed by aerodynamic drag".

    I dimly remember that car speed limits of 70mph were first introduced in the modern era concurrently with motorways.

    On this basis, I'll be happy for my bicycle speed to be regulated once doping technology has improved to the extent that I can achieve speeds of 112.654kph on the flat.


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    #81
    marvin80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭marvin80


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    An oul wan in the local used to say something similar when she was driving home drunk. "I pay more attention with a few on me because I know there is a bigger risk".

    I know it's not exactly the same but....

    Absolutely ridiculous comparison.
    I'd be more trusting of a cyclist paying attention than a drunk driver paying attention.


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    #82
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,572 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Middle Man wrote: »
    I must also be said that a cyclist travelling at any speed of 30kph or higher tend to be far less observant than other road users. I've cycled (in the past) and now drive and walk a lot - between those three modes, cycling is the most dangerous in terms of awareness regarding one's surroundings.

    Speak for yourself Middle Man.

    The truth is that cyclists are the most observant on the roads followed by pedestrians leaving car drivers the least observant and more likely to be in an accident.


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    #83
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »
    We're told that speed kills. Does that not apply to cyclists? Do safe stopping distances not apply either?

    Not really no. A bike just is not in any way comparable to a car when it comes to momentum, stopping distances, max speed etc. They're closer to a jogger than a car!


    I think part of the problem with roundabouts specifically is that cyclists are staying in the left hand lane and not taking a proper position on the road. Which I imagine somewhat stems from being bullied into cycling in the ditch half the time.


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    #84
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Optimalprimerib wrote: »
    An oul wan in the local used to say something similar when she was driving home drunk. "I pay more attention with a few on me because I know there is a bigger risk".

    I know it's not exactly the same but....

    It's nowhere near the same. I could make the same illogical link about your own driving and infer that you deliberately get drunk so you can drive faster while thinking you're safer.


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    #85
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    .....I think part of the problem with roundabouts specifically is that cyclists are staying in the left hand lane and not taking a proper position on the road. Which I imagine somewhat stems from being bullied into cycling in the ditch half the time....

    I agree 100% but I don't think anyone other than some one experienced of positioning will understand that.


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    #86
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    beauf wrote: »
    Lots of people don't know how to use roundabouts and even if they did lots of them are designed badly.

    They should have a TV campaign explaining them to people especially useful for tourists to Ireland. As the rules are not the same in all countries.

    There has been one - I always find it pretty disturbing that we *need* things like ads on TV prompting people to wear seatbelts and how to use roundabouts correctly etc People shouldn't be driving a car without L plates and someone sititng beside them if they are unaware of how to use a roundabout correctly.

    Think this was it or there was a shorter version of it on tv. Anyway, the advice to cyclists has been in the past, to keep to the left lane as this gives them control on the roundabout and forces folk to yield to them. Cycling legislation needs to change and ROTR need to be adapted so that cyclists have rules better suited to cycling. It simply does not work to have the same set of rules for cycling as driving a motorised vehicle.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rsdaSTOkWk


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    #87
    RobertFoster
    Registered Users Posts: 9,149 ✭✭✭RobertFoster


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I think part of the problem with roundabouts specifically is that cyclists are staying in the left hand lane and not taking a proper position on the road. Which I imagine somewhat stems from being bullied into cycling in the ditch half the time.
    Cyclists are permitted to use the left lane for all roundabout exits according to the ROTR.
    On a roundabout, always watch out for

    [...]
    • cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout
    The ROTR are just a guideline, so I'm not sure on the specifics of the legislation.


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    #88
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    RobertFoster wrote: »
    Cyclists are permitted to use the left lane for all roundabout exits according to the ROTR.

    The ROTR are just a guideline, so I'm not sure on the specifics of the legislation.

    Ah thanks, I was looking for that in ROTR last night. Knew I'd seen it in there somewhere.


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    #89
    machiavellianme
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Tigger wrote: »
    Citation needed

    Why exactly? Are you incapable of doing maths? The equations of motion was junior cert physics.


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    #90
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    P_1 wrote: »
    Ok I'll bite...

    A car travelling @30kph has a stopping distance of about 12 meters
    A bike travelling @30kph has a stopping distance of about 6 meters

    I'd consider that a fairly safe stopping distance tbh
    Tigger wrote: »
    Citation needed
    machiavellianme wrote: »
    Why exactly? Are you incapable of doing maths? The equations of motion was junior cert physics.

    Most literature for example here http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/speed.html

    Suggest a thinking distance of 4.5-5.5m and total stopping distance of 10-11m for a car
    So how on earth can a cyclist stop in 6 m
    Are they reacting faster ?


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    #91
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't think they can. Lots of debate online about incorrect figures for cycle braking.

    Also there are a lot of variables. Weight speed, size of tyre, type of brake, rim or disc etc

    The real issue is where you are doing the speed, open road or urban with lots of pedestrians.


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