The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

ForestFire · 30-03-2018 03:35PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Because in the situation Stupify is describing the pregnancy is completed and the child is born; he wants to create a legal fiction that pretends that the child does not exist.

I not sure he is, but maybe I am taking him up wrong.

The point i am discussing and discussed before was..

The right of a father/man, within the first 12 weeks, to say he does not want this pregnancy and the potential child.

If the Mother/Women has the right, in the first 12 weeks, should the father also have the right to not be involved.

Whether that results in the women deciding to abort or to continue, is still her choice.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 03:38PM

ForestFire wrote: »

I not sure he is, but maybe I am taking him up wrong.

The point i am discussing and discussed before was..

The right of a father/man, within the first 12 weeks, to say he does not want this pregnancy and the potential child.

If the Mother/Women has the right, in the first 12 weeks, should the father also have the right to not be involved.

Whether that results in the women deciding to abort or to continue, is still her choice.

This is exactly what I was saying, choice for both.

I would just like the father to be considered when legislation is put in place if/when the referendum is passed.

B0jangles · 30-03-2018 03:43PM

He does have that right, in all practical ways - no-one can force him to be a parent to a child if he does not want to be involved. I know a good many people whose fathers never wanted any contact with them. Is the right being sought not just rubberstamping the existing reality?

Stupify · 30-03-2018 03:45PM

B0jangles wrote: »

He does have that right, in all practical ways - no-one can force him to be a parent to a child if he does not want to be involved. I know a good many people whose fathers never wanted any contact with them. Is the right being sought not just rubberstamping the existing reality?

But he can be forced to pay for that child. A man who has made clear before birth (same period as a woman is allowed decide) that he wants no part in the childs life should not be forced to pay for that child.

B0jangles · 30-03-2018 03:46PM

Stupify wrote: »

But he can be forced to pay for that child.

Not really, not if he really doesn't want to.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 03:47PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Not really, not if he really doesn't want to.

Yeah, then he can go to jail or have his wages garnished.

swampgas · 30-03-2018 03:49PM

Stupify wrote: »

Yeah, then he can go to jail. The point is, he is legally required to when he shouldn't be.

And how will keeping or repealing the 8th amendment affect this situation?

ForestFire · 30-03-2018 03:50PM

B0jangles wrote: »

He does have that right, in all practical ways - no-one can force him to be a parent to a child if he does not want to be involved. I know a good many people whose fathers never wanted any contact with them.

No he is legally responsible for the child support.

Practical - Like flying to the UK?
Force - The law and courts?

We know there are illegal ways around this but the questions are-

1) Should he be afforded the right (Before 12-weeks)?
2) Should this be legally binding as part of new laws?

Why is there an issue with this if we have decided (Referendum passed) that there is no child or life before 12 weeks.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 03:50PM

swampgas wrote: »

And how will keeping or repealing the 8th amendment affect this situation?

Repealing the 8th will give woman a choice to abort in this country, at long last.

Men should also have a similar choice.

ForestFire · 30-03-2018 03:51PM

swampgas wrote: »

And how will keeping or repealing the 8th amendment affect this situation?

If we repeal the 8th, we are giving the women the right to end a pregnancy for any reason before 12 weeks.

As part of this should the man also have this option, not to be involved?

swampgas · 30-03-2018 03:52PM

Stupify wrote: »

Repealing the 8th will give woman a choice to abort in this country, at long last.

Men should also have a similar choice.

So not related to the 8th at all then, but a separate issue? Gotcha.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 03:53PM

swampgas wrote: »

So not related to the 8th at all then, but a separate issue? Gotcha.

I see it as related, repealing the 8th will bring the choice of abortion into this country for women, it should also bring with it a choice for men too.

B0jangles · 30-03-2018 03:56PM

Stupify wrote: »

I see it as related, repealing the 8th will bring the choice of abortion into this country for women, it should also bring with it a choice for men too.

Were you one of those kids who absolutely had to get a present on other people's birthdays just so you didn't feel left out?

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:01PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Were you one of those kids who absolutely had to get a present on other people's birthdays just so you didn't feel left out?

Seriously, if you don't want to talk about this you don't have to, nobody is forcing you to. I don't see why I should be made feel ashamed for wanting a choice instead of having something forced on me.

Sofiztikated · 30-03-2018 04:02PM

swampgas wrote: »

And how will keeping or repealing the 8th amendment affect this situation?

It smells like "Well, women could be FORCED to have abortions, so NO ABORTIONS!" to me.

I'm all for a man being able to say at that point, "I am against this pregnancy, and want to legally distance myself from it." At the end of the day, it's the woman's choice, and she should consider all options. But as I mentioned, I see it as being part of the adoption legislation.

A man doesn't go through the change of pregnancy. A woman does. That's why it should be her choice. Repeal the 8th. Then if you want to push to change the adoption, go right ahead.

Oldtree · 30-03-2018 04:04PM

Stupify wrote: »

Repealing the 8th will give woman a choice to abort in this country, at long last.

Men should also have a similar choice.

But men don't have a womb and just because you have happily donated a single sperm dosn't confer any rights to you, so I'm not really following you???

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:07PM

Oldtree wrote: »

But men don't have a womb and just because you have happily donated a single sperm dosn't confer any rights to you, so I'm not really following you???

Should I have the right to not to be a father?

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:12PM

Oldtree wrote: »

But men don't have a womb and just because you have happily donated a single sperm dosn't confer any rights to you, so I'm not really following you???

I want men to have the same choice as women will have, to able to not have a child if they don't want, I don't want this at the expense of women's right but joined with it.

Women have the right to their own body and nobody should be able to force them to carry to term or to abort, but a man should be allowed "abort" in the sense he should be able to waive his rights to the child and not pay any maintenance for it.

B0jangles · 30-03-2018 04:13PM

Stupify wrote: »

Seriously, if you don't want to talk about this you don't have to, nobody is forcing you to. I don't see why I should be made feel ashamed for wanting a choice instead of having something forced on me.

The 8th amendment directly affects the lives of all Irish women in very direct and tangible ways - it affects how we are treated by the medical profession whether or not we're even pregnant. Once a woman becomes pregnant in Ireland she loses legal control over her own body - her body is effectively put under state control for the duration of the pregnancy.

Is that not terrible enough? Is knowing that your fellow citizens are being denied such a basic right not enough, or do you really and truly not think it worth fighting for unless there is something in it for you personally?

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:20PM

B0jangles wrote: »

The 8th amendment directly affects the lives of all Irish women in very direct and tangible ways - it affects how we are treated by the medical profession whether or not we're even pregnant. Once a woman becomes pregnant in Ireland she loses legal control over her own body - her body is effectively put under state control for the duration of the pregnancy.

Is that not terrible enough? Is knowing that your fellow citizens are being denied such a basic right not enough, or do you really and truly not think it worth fighting for unless there is something in it for you personally?

Excuse me B0jangles, but you are attributing things to me that I have not said.

Nowhere did I say that unless it benefits me personally I won't fight for it, I have already said a few times that I was in support of repealing the 8th, I will always want people in this country to have a choice with regards their own body.

Can men not also be discussed though? I want to have a choice too, will you fight for my right to that choice B0jangles?

Oldtree · 30-03-2018 04:26PM

Stupify wrote: »

Should I have the right to not to be a father?

Stupify wrote: »

I want men to have the same choice as women will have, to able to not have a child if they don't want, I don't want this at the expense of women's right but joined with it.

Women have the right to their own body and nobody should be able to force them to carry to term or to abort, but a man should be allowed "abort" in the sense he should be able to waive his rights to the child and not pay any maintenance for it.

Ah I see what you are saying. But the difficulty is proving or disproving fatherhood rights before birth, in this case before 12 weeks, so I dont see how such a right could be implemented.

B0jangles · 30-03-2018 04:40PM

Stupify wrote: »

Excuse me B0jangles, but you are attributing things to me that I have not said.

Nowhere did I say that unless it benefits me personally I won't fight for it, I have already said a few times that I was in support of repealing the 8th, I will always want people in this country to have a choice with regards their own body.

Can men not also be discussed though? I want to have a choice too, will you fight for my right to that choice B0jangles?

If a law can be formulated in which the rights of the born child are fully protected, then I'd theoretically be happy for men either parent to be able to sign away all rights and responsibilities to that child.

The state would have to step in and provide full financial support though; so while you might not have to directly support the child, you'll be doing so indirectly through taxes anyway.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:47PM

Oldtree wrote: »

Ah I see what you are saying. But the difficulty is proving or disproving fatherhood rights before birth, in this case before 12 weeks, so I dont see how such a right could be implemented.

Yes that is a huge difficulty, but I'm sure there could be a way to implement it somehow.

Stupify · 30-03-2018 04:51PM

B0jangles wrote: »

If a law can be formulated in which the rights of the born child are fully protected, then I'd theoretically be happy for men either parent to be able to sign away all rights and responsibilities to that child.

The state would have to step in and provide full financial support though; so while you might not have to directly support the child, you'll be doing so indirectly through taxes anyway.

The state would need not provide anymore support than what is already in place I think, although I can foresee childcare costs being an issue where the single parent has no support network.

Anyway, I'm logging off now to enjoy the long weekend. I wish everyone here a happy Easter and safe travels over the break.

erica74 · 30-03-2018 05:47PM

I heard David Quinn from the Iona Institute (I think that's his name) on the radio earlier saying "no abortion will be refused if the 8th is removed from the constitution". He said that like it's a bad thing. I can't wait for no abortion to be refused!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2018 05:48PM

Stupify wrote: »

Not at all, I'm talking about before the child is born. Same as when a woman will be able to decide if she wants the child or not.

But there will be a born child. A child who has physical and financial needs. A child who will have paternal grandparents and extended family. A child who may be at risk of heritable disease. A child who may need an organ transplant. It's not workable.

It's funny that pro life posters are agreeing with you when they're so quick to accuse pro choice arguments of only talking about the woman's rights and not the "baby's" rights. In your scenario there's an actual, born, sentient baby. But oh yeah, they're born, and a woman's responsibility, so who cares :rolleyes:

January · 30-03-2018 05:54PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Anyone in this discussion planning on canvassing, fundraising or getting involved with the campaign generally?

I am busy this weekend but hopefully I will join up with a local canvas next weekend.

Yup. I'm one of the founding members of our local group. We've been out canvassing only once so far just to test the waters but have put together a plan for the next couple of weeks now that the date is set in stone. We had a stall today in the Blanchardstown Centre and had a brilliant response to it (not our first one have had a few before!), only one crazy person shouting that we were murderers and shame on us. We've a quiz night coming up next week in the area. We're one of the biggest constituencies in the country so it'll be a busy few weeks getting around to all the houses but hopefully, we'll get there!

Mr. CooL ICE · 30-03-2018 07:12PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Were you one of those kids who absolutely had to get a present on other people's birthdays just so you didn't feel left out?

Mod: Less of this, please. Comments like this are what give people the impression that repeal voters use bullying tactics.

kylith · 30-03-2018 07:22PM

Ok, so say a man can sign away his righrmys and not pay maintenance. Are you happy to see an increase in social welfare and a corresponding rise in taxes?

BabysCoffee · 30-03-2018 07:47PM

January wrote: »

Yup. I'm one of the founding members of our local group. We've been out canvassing only once so far just to test the waters but have put together a plan for the next couple of weeks now that the date is set in stone. We had a stall today in the Blanchardstown Centre and had a brilliant response to it (not our first one have had a few before!), only one crazy person shouting that we were murderers and shame on us. We've a quiz night coming up next week in the area. We're one of the biggest constituencies in the country so it'll be a busy few weeks getting around to all the houses but hopefully, we'll get there!

Good on you January!