The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

baylah17

Mongfinder General wrote: »

But some women may not want to be pregnant but may not want to take what they consider to be a life. Easier access up to 12 weeks puts pressure on make a decision. And when you’re a single mother with no money that’s an invidious position to find one’s self in.

Again more PL scaremongering, and anyway if they are that poor Im sure they will qualify for a Medical Card , so no issue there!

Madscientist30

Mongfinder General wrote: »

swampgas wrote: »

And surely the right thing to do is to give those women the ability to choose for themselves? It might be a tough decision, but it should be theirs to make, and not ours to judge.

I take your point about choice but it is a measure of last resort right now. What if there were more choices like more state support for new borns and toddlers? Would such drastic action be necessary?

If there was more state support then yes perhaps it would reduce abortions for women who are in very precarious circumstances financially. But the fact is if the state could be providing more support then they would already be doing so....Im sure politicians would love nothing more than to be announcing the doubling of child benefit, or free creche places etc. It is not the reality. But it should still be the choice of the individual woman. In some countries the state provides incentives to women to have more children, but it is still always down to the woman to make the choice given their circumstances.

Edward M

Mrs went to get her hair done this morning.
Hairdresser is pregnant with her third child, she already has two girls and just discovered the other day she is having another girl, she told my Mrs.
She and her hubbie are now considering an abortion as they want a boy and no more than 3 kids
Now says my Mrs, and you wanting me to vote for repeal.
I asked where is she having this abortion if it takes place, England was the answer, and how long is she pregnant I asked, 19 weeks was the answer.
Well she wouldn't be having it here anyway, even after repeal I said, she'd still have to go to England, I dont think sex can be determined at or before 12 weeks says I, well she says, its still terrible I think, its not helping me one bit to hear stuff like that.

captbarnacles

Edward M wrote: »

Well, its up and running, the save the eighth campaign is officially launched.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/doctor-using-braindead-woman-as-incubator-was-noble-36758629.html

Noble? What's wrong with these people.

erica74

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Is anybody else concerned that the legalization of abortion could be used to target women in poorer demographics? Many of these women may be seen as a burden to the state, unemployed, living in state housing, not contributing from financially to the state? Could there be an ulterior motive behind this referendum?

Such as...?

applehunter

Betting Odds for Repeal

28 January 2018 1/6

30 March 2018 8/15

Nettle Soup

applehunter wrote: »

Betting Odds for Repeal

28 January 2018 1/6

30 March 2018 8/15

Wow that is telling.

It will be close. A no vote would be embarrassing.

TheValeyard

applehunter wrote: »

Betting Odds for Repeal

28 January 2018 1/6

30 March 2018 8/15

Can you simplify this for non betting vote

Nettle Soup

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Wow that is telling.

It will be close. A no vote would be embarrassing.

How would it be embarrassing?

volchitsa

Interesting to see someone who saw nothing wrong with the name 'Mongfinder general' posting prolife comments and suggesting that pro choice may have see the poor and, I assume, the disabled as burdens on society.

applehunter

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Can you simplify this for non betting vote

1/6 would mean you would have to wager €6 to win €1.

The same €6 2 months later would yield €3.20

1/6 has a probability outcome of 86%
8/15 has a probability outcome of 65%

badtoro

I will vote, as far as I understand things at this moment, to remove this from the constitution and allow the Dail legislate on abortion.

SusieBlue

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I take your point about choice but it is a measure of last resort right now. What if there were more choices like more state support for new borns and toddlers? Would such drastic action be necessary?

They've had 35 years since the 8th was put in place to improve support and services. It hasn't happened. Because they aren't interested.
They are pro-birth, not pro-life. Insisting these women bear children they do not want and then watching them struggle and suffer trying to survive after without a care in the world.
The exact same people who bemoan social housing and complain about social welfare hand outs are the ones who are pro-life.

Pedro K

Edward M wrote: »

Well, its up and running, the save the eighth campaign is officially launched.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/doctor-using-braindead-woman-as-incubator-was-noble-36758629.html

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

Nettle Soup

bubblypop wrote: »

How would it be embarrassing?

Because the 8th is obviously not workable and puts women at risk. The abortion issue is way to complex to be legislated within the constitution.
A No vote shows that we are still under the influence of the Roman Catholic church and their spin merchants.

nozzferrahhtoo

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Is anybody else concerned that the legalization of abortion could be used to target women in poorer demographics? Many of these women may be seen as a burden to the state, unemployed, living in state housing, not contributing from financially to the state? Could there be an ulterior motive behind this referendum?

Sounds like unsubstantiated conspiracy theory stuff to me. Giving people a choice is not "targeting" them. Enforcing that choice on them would be. Have you any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to offer to suggest THAT might happen?

But your "giving them an option puts pressure on them to use that option" is just scare mongering with no basis you have yet offered.

Further, offering the choice of abortion to women who really want or need it is the right thing to do. I have never believed in withholding the right thing to do because someone somewhere might abuse it. So even if your fantasy was true here, that the availability of abortion might pressure SOME women into taking that option who otherwise might not......... that unfortunate state of affairs would not be a relevant indictment of bring in the choice all the same.

The better option would be to bring it in, and do so in such a way as to best minimize such concerns.

Mongfinder General wrote: »

What if there were more choices like more state support for new borns and toddlers? Would such drastic action be necessary?

You will find many people supporting the choice of abortion also support such initiatives yes. They are not mutually exclusive initiatives in any way. Quite the opposite in fact. Each supports the other. For example women who really do want an abortion, and get one where previously they would have been denied one.... would free up resources for the women who do not really want one, and want to avail of the "support" you speak of here.

Sofiztikated

Pedro K wrote: »

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

Eimear Thornton wrote:

But the biggest applause came after the speech by Dr Eimear Thornton who said: "As a mother of four children, I have far more experience in pregnancy than Katherine Zappone or Leo Varadkar."

I've had more teeth out than her, but I'm still not a dentist.

I'm probably going to read this thread a bit less. The "I'm voting repeal, but here's every single argument, in order, from the hymnbook for PLC" has started, and I'm only going to wind meself up.

Fair play to all the posters here that can keep their cool, even after 35 years of the same nonsense.

Zubeneschamali

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Fair play to all the posters here that can keep their cool, even after 35 years of the same nonsense.

But they are so silly!

Surely they cannot imagine this childish playacting is convincing anyone, it can only be reflecting badly on their cause.

Pherekydes

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Wow that is telling.

Yes, but it's only telling about the state of the [betting] market. It doesn't indicate anything about the possible result.

Bannasidhe

SusieBlue wrote: »

The exact same people who bemoan social housing and complain about social welfare hand outs are the ones who are pro-life.

And if anyone doubts this just look at the number of pro-birth posters who have complained about pro-choice being 'leftist'...
The same 'leftists' who are calling for actually affordable housing/local authority housing, security of leases, properly subsidised childcare, after school care, living wage, end of zero hours contracts, properly paid parental leave... all those little things that would help when raising a child.

neonsofa

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I take your point about choice but it is a measure of last resort right now. What if there were more choices like more state support for new borns and toddlers? Would such drastic action be necessary?

Im not sure if I'm wasting my time here going by username but taking this comment at face value, what good does state support for newborns and toddlers do when a mother is struggling to raise the child between the ages of 3 to... god knows what age now when more and more adults are remaining in the family home unable to move out.. but for simplicity we'll say 18?

It wasnt me123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

....
The same 'leftists' who are calling for actually affordable housing/local authority housing, security of leases, properly subsidised childcare, after school care, living wage, end of zero hours contracts, properly paid parental leave... all those little things that would help when raising a child.

But they don't care about the little babies or the mothers - they have no compassion they only want control. They are not interested in the babies once they are born, just want to make women give birth to them.

Repeal all the way and I'm predicting a 70/30 split in favour. I hope commonsense will out in the end.

PhoenixParker

Pedro K wrote: »

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

It seems to me that it's very difficult to find medical professionals, especially those working directly in Maternity care, who are against repealing the 8th.

They may well be pro life but they're almost never pro the 8th amendment.

seamus

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It seems to me that it's very difficult to find medical professionals, especially those working directly in Maternity care, who are against repealing the 8th.

They may well be pro life but they're almost never pro the 8th amendment.

There are basically none. All of those who've been trotted out by the pro-life movement are either professionals with no expertise in the area (Breda O'Brien), or white-haired catholic men who haven't been licenced to practice medicine for an unknown amount of time.

I'm sure if you look really hard, you can find the odd GP here and there, or a fertility specialist with strong opinions. But as far as I can tell there isn't a single qualified, practicing Ob/Gyn doctor who opposes repeal.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And if anyone doubts this just look at the number of pro-birth posters who have complained about pro-choice being 'leftist'...

In fairness, I think this is partly because a lot of those posters are Americans, and think words like "leftist", "liberal" and "social justice" are insults.

They don't realize that wading into the debate and insulting everyone to the left of Ronnie Reagan (i.e. 99% of Irish people) does their cause no favours.

BabysCoffee

Anyone in this discussion planning on canvassing, fundraising or getting involved with the campaign generally?

I am busy this weekend but hopefully I will join up with a local canvas next weekend.

Zubeneschamali

seamus wrote: »

All of those who've been trotted out by the pro-life movement are either professionals with no expertise in the area (Breda O'Brien), or white-haired catholic men who haven't been licenced to practice medicine for an unknown amount of time.

They had Dr. Monaghan, an obstetrician practicing in Ballinasloe for 30 years, on the radio from the launch, saying the 8th had never impeded his practice.

Here he is in 2015 giving out about the PLDPA which was forced on the Government by the 8th amendment itself:

"As a professional, I am not prepared to accept that I would be directed to perform abortions by my employer or the State. If I receive a direction to do one, I will not do it and will face the consequences. I think the bulk of Ireland's obstetricians would feel the same way.
"I will not practise obstetrics if I am compelled to kill babies."

amdublin

Pedro K wrote: »

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

I thought her comments were mean and snarky. There's a lot of women out there with children who have as much a say about the 8th as her with hers.

Anyhoo, on the repeal side, we raise you Dr O'Mahony with HER four children. A medical doctor to boot. And as it happens not only working in the field of maternity medicine but actually the master of our national hospital.

kylith

Mongfinder General wrote: »

But some women may not want to be pregnant but may not want to take what they consider to be a life. Easier access up to 12 weeks puts pressure on make a decision. And when you’re a single mother with no money that’s an invidious position to find one’s self in.

And you don’t think that the pressure to save the money and book the clinic and the hotel and the clinic puts pressure in the woman to rush into a decision, and that having done all that she then may feel pressured into going ahead with it even if she’s unsure? Whereas having a few weeks to think it over and the procedure being less expensive and available from a local gp would actually give her more time to consider her options and decide what is right for her?

PhoenixParker

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They had Dr. Monaghan, an obstetrician practicing in Ballinasloe for 30 years, on the radio from the launch, saying the 8th had never impeded his practice.

Here he is in 2015 giving out about the PLDPA which was forced on the Government by the 8th amendment itself:

"As a professional, I am not prepared to accept that I would be directed to perform abortions by my employer or the State. If I receive a direction to do one, I will not do it and will face the consequences. I think the bulk of Ireland's obstetricians would feel the same way.
"I will not practise obstetrics if I am compelled to kill babies."

It seems to be him over and over, from what I can see by googling he graduated trinity in 1976 which puts him very close to retirement after working a long spell in a hospital where any difficult case will be referred outward to a bigger better equipped hospital.

If he's not already retired that is, he doesn't seem to be on the medical council register.