The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

amdublin

Derval O'Rourke has just tweeted her support for Repeal of the 8th

Trasna1

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I called the ESB a few days ago to report all the timber poll posters in my area.

She promptly brushed me off the line. Interesting...

ESB generally do not have poles that line roadways, apart from in towns where ESB hasn't been undergrounded.

Most roadside poles are eir or are council lamp standards.

Trasna1

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Saw a Yes poster today hung at very low height - pretty much at eye level when walking. I've never seen that before.

I have, and it will become a much more common sight as we approach polling day. Pole space will become scarce and you'll have up to 8 posters on some poles on roads in high density areas, like Ranelagh, Rathmines.

There are guidelines on political postering, but they are never adhered to

bertieinexile

DubInMeath wrote: »

Any links to prove the level of care in Ireland is better than England given that the 8th is in place. Even leaving out abortion links can be found to show the level of care in the uk is better than in Ireland.

http://www.alittlelondoner.com/having-a-baby-in-ireland-vs-the-uk/


https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/is-ireland-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby-1.2114322


https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/views-from-the-nhs-frontline/2017/oct/02/pregnancy-rights-ireland-eight-amendment-control-women-tolerated-treatment-refused

According the WHO

Over the last 30 years, Ireland’s Maternal Mortality Rate (MMR) has been among the world’s lowest.

Ireland’s average MMR from 1985-2015 was 9
The uk’s average MMR from 1985-2015 was 11
http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/193994/WHO_RHR_15.23_eng.pdf;jsessionid=164E786A171B6FD879D9326F512512F1?sequence=1

Out of 183 countries measured by the WHO, Ireland’s ranking for MMR has remained consistently around joint 6th lowest, occasionally rising to 5th and dropping to 7th.
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2016/08/irelandmmr-4.jpg

According to the Confidential Maternal Death Enquiry (MDE)

For the triennium 2011 – 2013,
the Irish MMR was 10.4 per 100,000 maternities and
the UK MMR was 9.02 per 100,000 maternities.
This does not represent a statistically significant difference in MMR between countries
https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/research/maternaldeathenquiryireland/MDEIrelandDataBriefNo1December2015.pdf

The WHO find we are a safer country in which to give birth than the uk
The Confidential Maternal Death Enquiry finds we are statistically as safe.


And the pro choice campaign claims we're not
We need to repeal the 8th amendment because it is endangering women's lives
This is a fundamental claim of the pro choice side.
This is the claim that is supposed to balance people's concern for the lives that will be ended by abortion.

What are you talking about. Do the facts mean nothing? Have you thought this through at all?

Trasna1

B0jangles wrote: »

Since I was up the street, I took a couple of photos as proof:



All the NO campaign posters are highlighted in red.



The ones illegally placed on ESB poles had been cut down this morning, but you can see the remains of the NO campaign poster left on the pole - the colour is identical to the ones still hanging.

They don't look like ESB poles. The nearest pole is a Garda/council CCTV pole.

The rest look like council lamp standards. Unless they have wires strung between them, they are unlikely to be ESB.

bertieinexile

DubInMeath wrote: »

1 in 5 has been shown to be inaccurate but that's already been pointed out to you so not sure why you still think its a good one.

I welcome the fact that after quite a bit of discussion and the posting of undisputed statistics showing that "1 in 5" is not only true but marginally understates the abortion rate in england - and this being agreed to and pointed out to the rest of you by well informed pro choice posters - you are now reduced to mindlessly defiant denial.

No problem. It just gives me the chance to post the links to the relevant statistics again.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106608004

And although I am loathe to just repeat myself I think the only way to deal with this kind of denial is to post the links again each time it happens.

Your claims mightn't help advance the debate but I'd be delighted if you'd keep on doing what you're doing.

1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

What are you talking about. Do the facts mean nothing? Have you thought this through at all?

The irony ...

Right now the 8th amendment, along with the 13th, and the availability of abortion pills over the internet, means that many Irish women can have abortions but not under Irish medical supervision, either by taking pills bought illegally or by travelling to another country such as the UK.

Women who cannot travel for elective abortions, or who are having medical issues with pregnancy and therefore stuck in a hospital, are defenceless against the way the 8th amendment forces doctors to take additional risks with their lives.

Maybe you can answer a straight question: what difference do you see, in moral or ethical terms, between an Irish woman having an abortion in the UK, and having the same abortion in Ireland?

(I won't hold my breath. And if you do answer, try to keep it brief. A thousand word monologue isn't necessary.)

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.

So what?

Seriously - if 1 in 5 pregnancies are unwanted, why not abort?

What's your solution - ban abortion, and then what? Women will suddenly realise they really do want to be pregnant?

Do you think Irish women will thank you for "saving" them from a decision to have an abortion?
Do you think they will be grateful that you rode in on your high horse to tell them how to think?
Do you even care what Irish women think, as long as you can control their bodies while they are pregnant?

Trasna1

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That one may be, but the in the upper photo the CCTV pole and to the lamp posts are unlikely to be.

There are ESB poles in Bray and if the person had taken a photo 180degrees in the other direction, the poster would have captured them

gctest50

bertieinexile wrote: »

.........

No problem. It just gives me the chance to post the links to the relevant statistics again.

Any stats on how many of those are FFA ?

bertieinexile

bertieinexile wrote: »

1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.

So? What's the point?

bertieinexile

bertieinexile wrote: »

What are you talking about. Do the facts mean nothing? Have you thought this through at all?

Given your other posts this statement is just comical.

Yes I have thought this through and I have researched, you made a statement that due to allowing abortion a poster received better care in Ireland than what they would have received in the UK because abortion is legal there, and still haven't provided any evidence of this.

The W.H.O (that's not the rock band just incase your confused again), the UN, even the master of the Rotunda have been critical of Irish abortion legislation and the effects that the 8th has on patient care, but perhaps these aren't the facts your interested in.

Kurtosis

bertieinexile wrote: »

1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.

So of the remaining 4 in 5, how many end in miscarriage and how many end in live births?

bertieinexile

robarmstrong wrote: »

Maybe if buffoons stopped spreading false info across their posters individuals might be inclined to not tear them down, I saw two women tearing one down on Glasnevin the other day while I was out on a stroll with herself, when I asked were they pro-choice they said no, they just don't feel the posters are appropriately representing their pro-life views - the poster in question was of an aborted 20 something week fetus and how the 8th will allow abortions to this stage to happen (even though it's been unanimously agreed that it's 12 weeks).

Again it hasn't been unanimously agreed that it's 12 weeks.
I have laid out the argument here that what we are voting on is abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106660318
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106698935

And here are some links to posts presenting counterarguments to that, which the poster hasn't eventually given up on.





If you want to deny that we are voting on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks please add something to that list.
All we need is a link to a post where this killer counterargument was made.

It seems fair to say that, in the end, the entire pro choice claim that Harris's schedule doesn't allow abortion on demand up to 24 weeks comes down to language.
The uk, where they have abortion on demand on "mental health" grounds, speaks of risk of injury
Our proposed laws talk of threat of serious harm.

1 Marie Stopes clinics, who don't give a toss what the law in england says, will be responsible for interpreting that difference
2 In Australia, states where the wording was the even more extreme "threat of serious danger" - and where almost all abortions were caried out on this ground - had abortion rates among the highest in the developed world.

Thanks robarmstrong for the opportunity your post gave me to put this up again.

gctest50

bertieinexile wrote: »

.........

I have laid out the argument here that what we are voting on is abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.

FUD again

12 weeks

bertieinexile

bertieinexile wrote: »

Again it hasn't been unanimously agreed that it's 12 weeks.
I have laid out the argument here that what we are voting on is abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106660318
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106698935

And here are some links to posts presenting counterarguments to that, which the poster hasn't eventually given up on.





If you want to deny that we are voting on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks please add something to that list.
All we need is a link to a post where this killer counterargument was made.

It seems fair to say that, in the end, the entire pro choice claim that Harris's schedule doesn't allow abortion on demand up to 24 weeks comes down to language.
The uk, where they have abortion on demand on "mental health" grounds, speaks of risk of injury
Our proposed laws talk of threat of serious harm.

1 Marie Stopes clinics, who don't give a toss what the law in england says, will be responsible for interpreting that difference
2 In Australia, states where the wording was the even more extreme "threat of serious danger" - and where almost all abortions were caried out on this ground - had abortion rates among the highest in the developed world.

Thanks robarmstrong for the opportunity your post gave me to put this up again.

No abortion on demand up to 24 weeks, you've said this multiple times and you've been shown to be lying each time.

As said previously and you quoted the following article as support for this opinion, but no where in the article does it state this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-will-seek-to-ban-late-term-abortions-1.3440056

Your just repeating your false statement at this point

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

<Same old drivel, something something 24 weeks>

Tell me Bertie - why don't you think women can be trusted to decide for themselves (having received medical advice where needed) whether or not they should have an abortion?

What's your fear? What do you think women would do if there really were "unrestricted" abortion?

bertieinexile

swampgas wrote: »

Women who... are having medical issues with pregnancy and therefore stuck in a hospital, are defenceless against the way the 8th amendment forces doctors to take additional risks with their lives.

If there was any truth at all to that wouldn't it have shown up as a higher Maternal Mortality Rate here than in the uk?

swampgas wrote:

Maybe you can answer a straight question: what difference do you see, in moral or ethical terms, between an Irish woman having an abortion in the UK, and having the same abortion in Ireland?

(I won't hold my breath. And if you do answer, try to keep it brief. A thousand word monologue isn't necessary.)

I'm pretty sure I don't understand your question.
An abortion would have the same moral value to me wherever it took place.
Feel free to clarify what you're getting at.

Cabaal

What's with the fascination with England? Why not use all of the UK for stats or use France or Germany ?

Is it because they are cherry picking their "facts" or is it the case that they are trying to make some pathetic attempt to appeal to some peoples anti England sentiment?

Given the massive posters they have with parts of a fetus making up the union Jack I'm guessing it's a hate England thing... Utterly pathetic.

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

If there was any truth at all to that wouldn't it have shown up as a higher Maternal Mortality Rate here than in the uk?

If Savita Halappanavar hadn't been affected by the 8th the statistics would look even better. Whatever the stats are right now, repealing the 8th can only make them better.

I'm pretty sure I don't understand your question. An abortion would have the same moral value to me wherever it took place.Feel free to clarify what you're getting at.

If an abortion has the same moral value anywhere, and abortion is already de facto legal for elective abortions for those with the means to travel, then surely there is no value to restricting where those abortions occur?

If an abortion is going to happen anyway, why do you care where it occurs?

Surely, from a moral perspective, your energy would be better spent campaigning for the UK to ban abortion again?

captbarnacles

swampgas wrote: »

If Savita Halappanavar hadn't been affected by the 8th the statistics would look even better. Whatever the stats are right now, repealing the 8th can only make them better.


If an abortion has the same moral value anywhere, and abortion is already de facto legal for elective abortions for those with the means to travel, then surely there is no value to restricting where those abortions occur?

If an abortion is going to happen anyway, why do you care where it occurs?

Surely, from a moral perspective, your energy would be better spent campaigning for the UK to ban abortion again?

After the referendum is passed I am fully confident Prolifers will try and stop Irish women using Englands system instead of our more restrictive system.

That or they will forget about it and we will hear no more protests from them about abortion ever. Who knows?

England and Wales stats for anyone who hasn't read them

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robarmstrong

bertieinexile wrote: »

Again it hasn't been unanimously agreed that it's 12 weeks.
I have laid out the argument here that what we are voting on is abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106660318
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106698935

And here are some links to posts presenting counterarguments to that, which the poster hasn't eventually given up on.





If you want to deny that we are voting on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks please add something to that list.
All we need is a link to a post where this killer counterargument was made.

It seems fair to say that, in the end, the entire pro choice claim that Harris's schedule doesn't allow abortion on demand up to 24 weeks comes down to language.
The uk, where they have abortion on demand on "mental health" grounds, speaks of risk of injury
Our proposed laws talk of threat of serious harm.

1 Marie Stopes clinics, who don't give a toss what the law in england says, will be responsible for interpreting that difference
2 In Australia, states where the wording was the even more extreme "threat of serious danger" - and where almost all abortions were caried out on this ground - had abortion rates among the highest in the developed world.

Thanks robarmstrong for the opportunity your post gave me to put this up again.

I'm going to ask this very, very simply.

Have you got any facts, or proof, or evidence to back up your claim that there will be abortion on demand up to 24 weeks pending the repealing of the 8th amendment? Let me remind you that the Oireachtas has a written proposal of unrestricted abortion of up to 12 weeks, can you back up your claim with any facts?

Nettle Soup

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know some SSM opponents that lied and told people they voted Yes after they saw the result and the general happiness.

bertieinexile

DubInMeath wrote: »

No abortion on demand up to 24 weeks, you've said this multiple times and you've been shown to be lying each time.

As said previously and you quoted the following article as support for this opinion, but no where in the article does it state this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-will-seek-to-ban-late-term-abortions-1.3440056

Your just repeating your false statement at this point

This is bizarre. Maybe its just getting a bit late.

Another poster asked why I had originally said that, theoretically at least, the earliest government proposals would have allowed abortion on demand on mental health grounds up to term.

I posted the link above which says that it was only at a later date (and after I had made that claim) that the government restricted the mental health grounds so they would just apply up to viability ~ 24 weeks.

The rest of the article deals almost exclusively with how the law would apply to the third trimester - after 24 weeks/viability.

It might be time for at least one of us to go to bed

ohnonotgmail

bertieinexile wrote: »

This is bizarre. Maybe its just getting a bit late.

Another poster asked why I had originally said that, theoretically at least, the earliest government proposals would have allowed abortion on demand on mental health grounds up to term.

I posted the link above which says that it was only at a later date (and after I had made that claim) that the government restricted the mental health grounds so they would just apply up to viability ~ 24 weeks.

The rest of the article deals almost exclusively with how the law would apply to the third trimester - after 24 weeks/viability.

It might be time for at least one of us to go to bed

your memory is very selective. you repeated ad nauseum that the proposed legislation would allow abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.

robarmstrong

bertieinexile wrote: »

This is bizarre. Maybe its just getting a bit late.

Another poster asked why I had originally said that, theoretically at least, the earliest government proposals would have allowed abortion on demand on mental health grounds up to term.

I posted the link above which says that it was only at a later date (and after I had made that claim) that the government restricted the mental health grounds so they would just apply up to viability ~ 24 weeks.

The rest of the article deals almost exclusively with how the law would apply to the third trimester - after 24 weeks/viability.

It might be time for at least one of us to go to bed

Did you even read some of the articles you've linked?

Head 7: Early pregnancy (12 weeks)
7. (1) It shall be lawful to carry out a termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head
where a medical practitioner certifies, that in his or her reasonable opinion formed in good
faith, the pregnancy concerned has not exceeded 12 weeks of pregnancy.
(2) It shall be necessary for 72 hours to elapse between the time of the certification referred to
in subhead (1) and the termination of pregnancy being carried out.
(3) The medical practitioner referred to in subhead (1) shall make such arrangements as he or
she shall deem to be necessary for the carrying out of the termination of pregnancy as soon as
may be after the period referred to in subhead (2) has elapsed but before the pregnancy has
exceeded 12 weeks of pregnancy.
(4) For the purposes of this Head, ―12 weeks of pregnancy‖ shall be construed in
accordance with the medical principle that pregnancy is dated from the first day of a
woman’s last menstrual period.

Absolutely no mention whatsoever here of anything after 12 weeks, in fact it seems to me that it's pretty much set in stone that bar exceptional circumstances no abortion happens after 12 weeks.

(2) Where the review committee has completed its review of the relevant decision and is
satisfied that in its reasonable opinion formed in good faith—
(a) (i) there is a risk to the life of, or of serious harm to the health of, the pregnant
woman,
(ii) the foetus has not reached viability, and
(iii) it is appropriate to carry out the termination of pregnancy referred to in Head
4(1) in order to avert that risk, or
(b) there is present a condition affecting the foetus that is likely to lead to the death of
the foetus either before birth or shortly after birth

Nothing mentioning this "up to 24 week abortion" nonsense you're spouting out.

Viability is still a debatable topic however, as there have been babies born at 21 weeks, so......

Maybe go to bed there like a good lad bertie, I can't keep proving you wrong all night son.

bertieinexile

robarmstrong wrote: »

I'm going to ask this very, very simply.

Have you got any facts, or proof, or evidence to back up your claim that there will be abortion on demand up to 24 weeks pending the repealing of the 8th amendment? Let me remind you that the Oireachtas has a written proposal of unrestricted abortion of up to 12 weeks, can you back up your claim with any facts?

I'm going to answer very simply. We had a fairly long debate about this while you were away (and I for one missed having you around) and the argument you are looking for is summarised in the first link in the post you are responding to.

Here it is again
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106660318

Here is where attempted counterarguments were dealt with
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106698935

Good to have you back rob